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#31 Old 07-25-2008, 01:50 PM
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Hm, that's not the attitude I've come to expect from someone who's achieved a proper state of clear.



Thats the attitude you achieve from a proper state of clear mind , without accessing the subconscious
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#32 Old 07-25-2008, 02:53 PM
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I just wanted to add that sometimes members ask to be banned because they're spending too much time on VB or want a forced break for some other reason. There's no way to distinguish a requested ban from a punished ban.

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#33 Old 07-25-2008, 04:34 PM
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Such innocence; idealists are so cute, sometimes.



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#34 Old 07-25-2008, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by WonderRandy View Post

MOD POST



Please refrain from any further personal attacks. You know who you are.






I've had this thread minutely examined by a team of highly respected linguistics experts and, neither they nor I can find one single example of anything that could justly be considered a 'personal attack.'



Perhaps someone could give me an explanation re what the above post refers to.



Of course, being accused of 'personal attacks' where none have occurred, is pretty much par for the course on VB, as has been mentioned earlier.
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#35 Old 07-25-2008, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylark View Post

I've been on lots of boards, and at every single one, there's a certain contingent that will complain about the mods/admin no matter how fair and even-handed they are. It seems some people absolutely dislike the entire concept of moderation. There are boards for them. And some of you already go there.



Hmm, I've never belonged to a board that didn't have some rules. I imagine they are out there but are probably dens for racist and extremist social issues. I seriously doubt there are many people on this board who don't want to have some level of moderation. The bigger issue I'm observing in most peoples' complaints lies with the inequity of how rules are sometimes enforced here.
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#36 Old 07-25-2008, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylark View Post

I've been on lots of boards, and at every single one, there's a certain contingent that will complain about the mods/admin no matter how fair and even-handed they are. It seems some people absolutely dislike the entire concept of moderation. There are boards for them. And some of you already go there.

That sounds like a way to dismiss complaints/suggestions/dissatisfaction out of hand and not feel obligated to consider whether their complaints/suggestions/dissatisfaction have any merit. I hope I said that right. I'm not trying to be nasty by any means, just saying that not some people here might not have read the previous posts as an issue of every single mod being fair and even-handed at all times vs the Complaining Contingent.

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#37 Old 07-25-2008, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Veggily View Post

That sounds like a way to dismiss complaints/suggestions/dissatisfaction out of hand and not feel obligated to consider whether their complaints/suggestions/dissatisfaction have any merit. I hope I said that right. I'm not trying to be nasty by any means, just saying that not some people here might not have read the previous posts as an issue of every single mod being fair and even-handed at all times vs the Complaining Contingent.



Well put. We also might note that there is a "certain contingent" of mods to which these comments apply.
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#38 Old 07-25-2008, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by abroadinSacto View Post

Hmm, I've never belonged to a board that didn't have some rules. I imagine they are out there but are probably dens for racist and extremist social issues.

I think it's quite the opposite actually, people like that want to be protected from flames and rational arguments.



Quote:
Originally Posted by abroadinSacto View Post

I seriously doubt there are many people on this board who don't want to have some level of moderation. The bigger issue I'm observing in most peoples' complaints lies with the inequity of how rules are sometimes enforced here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJen View Post

#1 There is no "double standard".

well we don't call it that, but what we got is a system where who you are gives you a pass on certain things. some people are more trusted than others.



https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...40&postcount=1

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post

Pro-meat/hunting/etc debate (will result in an immediate ban).

this is a rule but it only really applies to newbies and people that aren't interesting in the way they approach the issue or just piss a mod off too much. in this old thread we can see some public mod discussion on level of enforcement.

https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...3&postcount=19

and more recently skylark has commented on seeming double standard

https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...4&postcount=31

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylark View Post

To answer the question, yes, we get pro-hunting trolls in here. That's why we have the rule about pro-meat and pro-hunting posts.If someone is an established member, are a vegetarian and believe hunting is a valid option for non-vegs, they are welcome to discuss that. I can think of several people off the top of my head who have said hunting may be less cruel than factory farming and should be encouraged.

sometimes I have to wonder as a contributing member if it works not as a bribe but as a signal that I'm a committed member on some level and not just here to trash the place till I get banned. longevity and name recognition helps too and there is more freedom to disagree in the compost heap.

* This post may contain pork, beef and fingers of undocumented workers. This post was manufactured in a facility that processes peanuts.
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#39 Old 07-25-2008, 10:57 PM
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I dunno, this

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesand View Post


sure looks like a lingering engram to me.

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#40 Old 07-25-2008, 11:03 PM
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This is such a short and simple list. If people don't like how the rules get enforced, they don't have to stay, do they? Its not like getting warned for breaking one of these rules is going to affect your credit rating, or your job prospects. Its just an online forum.



Even easier, if people don't like getting their "hands slapped" for making personal attacks, then don't make the personal attacks.

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#41 Old 07-25-2008, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

This is such a short and simple list. If people don't like how the rules get enforced, they don't have to stay, do they? Its not like getting warned for breaking one of these rules is going to affect your credit rating, or your job prospects. Its just an online forum.



Even easier, if people don't like getting their "hands slapped" for making personal attacks, then don't make the personal attacks.



So, what's a personal attack? Why is the measure different for different people? Why does one person get a warning for having an avatar that's a dr's office line-drawing of a vasectomy, while someone else can use a picture of two stick figures humping, with no problem?
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#42 Old 07-25-2008, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post


Even easier, if people don't like getting their "hands slapped" for making personal attacks, then don't make the personal attacks.



Perhaps you could use your infinite erudition to determine which posts in this thread are 'personal attacks' and therefore worthy of a warning from a mod?

(And, of course, explain why they are such).
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#43 Old 07-25-2008, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by abroadinSacto View Post

Why is the measure different for different people? Why does one person get a warning for having an avatar that's a dr's office line-drawing of a vasectomy, while someone else can use a picture of two stick figures humping, with no problem?

there's a little bit of an interpersonal and community credit rating of trustworthiness. some day moderating will become so advanced that we will have credit ratings for every member and you can elect to have people with very low scores to not be visible. will my contributing member status be factored in? it seems reasonable but offends my sensibilities too. it is the dream of all communities to make marginalized individuals invisible.



mods, send this thread to the heap, it's too good to waste here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodyelse View Post

If people don't like how the rules get enforced, they don't have to stay, do they? Its not like getting warned for breaking one of these rules is going to affect your credit rating, or your job prospects. Its just an online forum.

eh, it's different things to different people. kind of a rhetorical point really that if we're talking about a bad aspect we say oh it's just this little online forum but if it's a good aspect we say hey this is an awesome online community.

* This post may contain pork, beef and fingers of undocumented workers. This post was manufactured in a facility that processes peanuts.
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#44 Old 07-25-2008, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by otomik View Post

there's a little bit of an interpersonal and community credit rating of trustworthiness. some day moderating will become so advanced that we will have credit ratings for every member and you can elect to have people with very low scores to not be visible.



Let's pray that we can opt see only the low scores if we choose. Or just the middle scores.
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#45 Old 07-25-2008, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by abroadinSacto View Post

Let's pray that we can opt see only the low scores if we choose. Or just the middle scores.

we could get this up and running if all the mods just collected information on reported violations. you would be in effect subscribing to a regularly updated ignore list. maybe different mods could be different credit rating agencies with their own preferences and pet peeves (Modding feels like work sometimes, shouldn't you make money? you are collecting data that is worth something to someone). you subscribe to IamJen's ignore list like premium content worth 25 cents a month or something.



it would quickly destroy a sense of shared place, it would be marvelous.



you could go all elitist, aghast that your fellow members are even acknowledging some low-life like otomik.

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#46 Old 07-25-2008, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

I dunno, this



sure looks like a lingering engram to me.



Well these synapses that wont connect with the subconsciousness and thats what you get .



Looks around , thinks hes off topic .
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#47 Old 07-26-2008, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by otomik View Post

you could go all elitist, aghast that your fellow members are even acknowledging some low life like silver.



That poster made some out there posts but I don't think they deserve to be talked about like that.
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#48 Old 07-26-2008, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by otomik View Post

maybe different mods could be different credit rating agencies with their own preferences and pet peeves



Maybe they already are!
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#49 Old 07-26-2008, 12:11 AM
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This is such a short and simple list. If people don't like how the rules get enforced, they don't have to stay, do they? Its not like getting warned for breaking one of these rules is going to affect your credit rating, or your job prospects. Its just an online forum.



Even easier, if people don't like getting their "hands slapped" for making personal attacks, then don't make the personal attacks.



I doubt many people have read those rules and decided to join if they felt they could not try to follow them. They certainly sound reasonable to me. When rules are enforced, there should be no problem. It is when ego gets mixed up in enforcing "rules" (in quotes because some of them could probably legitimately be perceived differently by different people) that the issue comes up of some people feeling they got unfairly "slapped."



FTR, it is understandable if a mod slaps someone when s/he is trying to work out an issue on the board, but happens to be short of time or stressed out by something unrelated to the topic at hand, just like us non-mod posters sometimes get snappy or misunderstand somebody for the same reasons. In that case, I think the punished person might feel miffed but not take it personally, and hopefully there is a way for the member to discuss that sort of situation and work things out.



ETA: ETA removed.

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#50 Old 07-26-2008, 12:23 AM
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I think the punished person might feel miffed but not take it personally, and hopefully there is a way for the member to discuss that sort of situation and work things out.



There's the problem. There is, apparently, no appeal against summary conviction by a biased / vindictive mod.
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#51 Old 07-26-2008, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Veggily View Post

I doubt many people have read those rules and decided to join if they felt they could not try to follow them. They certainly sound reasonable to me. When rules are enforced, there should be no problem. It is when ego gets mixed up in enforcing "rules" (in quotes because some of them could probably legitimately be perceived differently by different people) that the issue comes up of some people feeling they got unfairly "slapped."



FTR, it is understandable if a mod slaps someone when s/he is trying to work out an issue on the board, but happens to be short of time or stressed out by something unrelated to the topic at hand, just like us non-mod posters sometimes get snappy or misunderstand somebody for the same reasons. In that case, I think the punished person might feel miffed but not take it personally, and hopefully there is a way for the member to discuss that sort of situation and work things out.



I think we're talking about pretty clear patterns here, not the random bad day.
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#52 Old 07-26-2008, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Bof View Post

There's the problem. There is, apparently, no appeal against summary conviction by a biased / vindictive mod.



Once I got a warning, but the mod admitted that she knew I was making a joke and that she thought I was being funny. There's some vindication in that. Kindof a pain and pleasure thing.
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#53 Old 07-26-2008, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by abroadinSacto View Post

I think we're talking about pretty clear patterns here, not the random bad day.

I was trying to differentiate between the person who might have a random bad day and the person might have some problems separating ego or personal issues from enforcing rules.

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#54 Old 07-26-2008, 03:29 AM
 
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<<catches up



re: the VeganJoe thread, the op explained that it was about feeling like it was him against the world (or something like that), a position that VJ has been in on more than one occasion at VB.



otomik: I'm not completely clear on what you mean here: well we don't call it that, but what we got is a system where who you are gives you a pass on certain things. some people are more trusted than others." I'd agree that some people are "trusted" more than others in some ways, but really only based on length of membership. As for treating people in exactly the same manner, if that's what you mean, well, I don't think that's possible.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#55 Old 07-26-2008, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by abroadinSacto View Post

So, what's a personal attack? Why is the measure different for different people? Why does one person get a warning for having an avatar that's a dr's office line-drawing of a vasectomy, while someone else can use a picture of two stick figures humping, with no problem?



Intent and past performance.



Quote:
There's the problem. There is, apparently, no appeal against summary conviction by a biased / vindictive mod.



Almost all actions against established members are discussed (and in almost all cases) agreed upon by all of the mods before anything is done. Moderators don't just run rampant banning anyone who looks at them funny. That being said, if you've done enough to piss off 8-10 moderators you probably deserve what you get.

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#56 Old 07-26-2008, 05:00 AM
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Perhaps there should be a thread where people can post homemade avatars for people who wanto to be self banned.





like this \\/\\/


























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#57 Old 07-26-2008, 05:58 AM
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I've often noticed a tendency here, especially from non-moderating members but maybe also from mods, to brush off criticism with the sort of "if you don't like it, leave" mentality, maybe also accompanied by an emotional appeal to how much resources it takes to maintain this board.



I find that curious and something that I have not encountered on another board I'm a member of. I think it's a given that people will criticize, and I don't think the problem can ever be that they criticize (instead of showing gratitude or whatever) but rather whether their criticism is plausible.



(I cannot help but note the analogy of the way in which people reject to criticism of the US government: "move to France, then".)

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#58 Old 07-26-2008, 06:02 AM
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I have seen it on other boards.

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#59 Old 07-26-2008, 06:11 AM
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Of what nationality?

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#60 Old 07-26-2008, 06:15 AM
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well American run, on the whole, but the "mod time/effort", "admin. time/money etc" arguments seem to arise quite often, when a board's status quo is challenged.

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