Veggie Regular
Join Date: May 2003
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I recently received an infraction, and I have a question/concern.
First, before anyone starts telling me to "love it or leave it", I want to clarify that I have no problem with the TOS and agree to it without exception. I also accept that I broke the rules, and the infraction was appropriate.
My question however is n regard to how the infraction system is applied. I have seen some mods repeatedly give warning about personal attacks for some pretty heavy personal attacks, I have personally received an infraction with one warning, and I have heard of others who received an infraction without explanation.
So, does VB have a standard "threshold" policy, or is handing out infractions at the whim of the mod who happens to be viewing the thread at the time.?
First, before anyone starts telling me to "love it or leave it", I want to clarify that I have no problem with the TOS and agree to it without exception. I also accept that I broke the rules, and the infraction was appropriate.
My question however is n regard to how the infraction system is applied. I have seen some mods repeatedly give warning about personal attacks for some pretty heavy personal attacks, I have personally received an infraction with one warning, and I have heard of others who received an infraction without explanation.
So, does VB have a standard "threshold" policy, or is handing out infractions at the whim of the mod who happens to be viewing the thread at the time.?
Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
-nomad888
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Veggie Regular
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beancounter 
I have seen some mods repeatedly give warning about personal attacks for some pretty heavy personal attacks,
I have seen some mods repeatedly give warning about personal attacks for some pretty heavy personal attacks,
How do you know they did not also give an infraction in those cases?
I have been given an infraction with no warning - it did include an explanation, but none was really needed. I deserved it. And it was worth it.
Veggie Regular
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegmedic
How do you know they did not also give an infraction in those cases?
I have been given an infraction with no warning - it did include an explanatin, but none was really needed. I deserved it. And it was worth it.
How do you know they did not also give an infraction in those cases?
I have been given an infraction with no warning - it did include an explanatin, but none was really needed. I deserved it. And it was worth it.
I didn't say that they didn't give out infractions, but that they gave multiple warnings before giving the infraction.
Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
-nomad888
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Herbivorous Urchin
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beancounter
I didn't say that they didn't give out infractions, but that they gave multiple warnings before giving the infraction.
I didn't say that they didn't give out infractions, but that they gave multiple warnings before giving the infraction.
They still might give them out. You can't really know if/when they give them out, or to whom.
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Veggie Regular
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricGaia
They still might give them out. You can't really know if/when they give them out, or to whom.
They still might give them out. You can't really know if/when they give them out, or to whom.
In the example I saw,the warning happened one after the other very quickly, so I didn't think it was likely that they had time to hand out the infractions to multiple individuals.
Just a thought, there are so many personal attacks going on in the Heap, the mods must be as busy as switchboard operators during peak usage times.
Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
-nomad888
Herbivorous Urchin
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beancounter
In the example I saw,the warning happened one after the other very quickly, so I didn't think it was likely that they had time to hand out the infractions to multiple individuals.
Just a thought, there are so many personal attacks going on in the Heap, the mods must be as busy as switchboard operators during peak usage times.
In the example I saw,the warning happened one after the other very quickly, so I didn't think it was likely that they had time to hand out the infractions to multiple individuals.
Just a thought, there are so many personal attacks going on in the Heap, the mods must be as busy as switchboard operators during peak usage times.
They might have handed out the infractions before they posted the warnings?
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Veggie Regular
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,801
I haven't gotten an infraction... (Lord knows why not, I've been hormonal and wenchy enough to deserve one a few times.)
But I have thought it might be nice to have some sort of system we could refer to to understand how many warnings or infractions or points or whatever it takes before a temporary ban... How many of those before a permanent ban... What are offenses worthy of an instant permanent ban, etc... However they do it, it would be nice to know. We know the rules, but it might be nice to know the penal system behind them, out of fairness to users.
Then I thought that might actually be more of a pain in the ass for the mods and would lead to people getting all, "But I KNOW this person has been temporarily banned twice before and omg my best friend did THIS and was banned forevAr and that's NOT FAIR so fix it right now!"
I dunno. I ran a forum once and my list of bannable offenses included "acting Un-Australian" and "spelling ridiculous with an E" so I'm probably not the best person to discuss these matters.
But I have thought it might be nice to have some sort of system we could refer to to understand how many warnings or infractions or points or whatever it takes before a temporary ban... How many of those before a permanent ban... What are offenses worthy of an instant permanent ban, etc... However they do it, it would be nice to know. We know the rules, but it might be nice to know the penal system behind them, out of fairness to users.
Then I thought that might actually be more of a pain in the ass for the mods and would lead to people getting all, "But I KNOW this person has been temporarily banned twice before and omg my best friend did THIS and was banned forevAr and that's NOT FAIR so fix it right now!"
I dunno. I ran a forum once and my list of bannable offenses included "acting Un-Australian" and "spelling ridiculous with an E" so I'm probably not the best person to discuss these matters.
Herbivorous Urchin
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semicharmed
I haven't gotten an infraction... (Lord knows why not, I've been hormonal and wenchy enough to deserve one a few times.)
But I have thought it might be nice to have some sort of system we could refer to to understand how many warnings or infractions or points or whatever it takes before a temporary ban... How many of those before a permanent ban... What are offenses worthy of an instant permanent ban, etc... However they do it, it would be nice to know. We know the rules, but it might be nice to know the penal system behind them, out of fairness to users.
Then I thought that might actually be more of a pain in the ass for the mods and would lead to people getting all, "But I KNOW this person has been temporarily banned twice before and omg my best friend did THIS and was banned forevAr and that's NOT FAIR so fix it right now!"
I dunno. I ran a forum once and my list of bannable offenses included "acting Un-Australian" and "spelling ridiculous with an E" so I'm probably not the best person to discuss these matters.
I haven't gotten an infraction... (Lord knows why not, I've been hormonal and wenchy enough to deserve one a few times.)
But I have thought it might be nice to have some sort of system we could refer to to understand how many warnings or infractions or points or whatever it takes before a temporary ban... How many of those before a permanent ban... What are offenses worthy of an instant permanent ban, etc... However they do it, it would be nice to know. We know the rules, but it might be nice to know the penal system behind them, out of fairness to users.
Then I thought that might actually be more of a pain in the ass for the mods and would lead to people getting all, "But I KNOW this person has been temporarily banned twice before and omg my best friend did THIS and was banned forevAr and that's NOT FAIR so fix it right now!"
I dunno. I ran a forum once and my list of bannable offenses included "acting Un-Australian" and "spelling ridiculous with an E" so I'm probably not the best person to discuss these matters.
rotfl how have you not gotten one! I have!
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Veggie Regular
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricGaia
rotfl how have you not gotten one!
rotfl how have you not gotten one!
I'm a sorcerer.
Veggie Regular
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricGaia
They might have handed out the infractions before they posted the warnings?
They might have handed out the infractions before they posted the warnings?
Yea, you're right. there's no way to know for sure. But don't warning typically come first?
Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
-nomad888
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An infraction is basically a warning. It's no big deal to receive one. And there is an explaination of how they work in a sticky in this forum.
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I got banned from an infraction which was in correct, yet the mod in question (i cant remember who it was or id name them) would not accept liability, and just brushed it off with "michael makes the rules, talk to hi, im not going to reply to you any more".
So, id say it is down to the individual mod as to do what they see fit.
So, id say it is down to the individual mod as to do what they see fit.
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If someone thinks they've been treated unfairly they can check with me but infractions generally aren't a big deal. After they're given we usually don't give them a second thought, it's just to keep track of who is consistently breaking the rules.
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Veggie Regular
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanie
I got banned from an infraction which was in correct, yet the mod in question (i cant remember who it was or id name them) would not accept liability, and just brushed it off with "michael makes the rules, talk to hi, im not going to reply to you any more".
So, id say it is down to the individual mod as to do what they see fit.
I got banned from an infraction which was in correct, yet the mod in question (i cant remember who it was or id name them) would not accept liability, and just brushed it off with "michael makes the rules, talk to hi, im not going to reply to you any more".
So, id say it is down to the individual mod as to do what they see fit.
On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts
On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
as things stand to date, its not an offense on this forum so until it is maybe you should pull your head in. if we have to put up with an infraction system at all, i reckon that they should start handing them out to people like you who keep picking on other posters for the way they choose to write. youre just rude. what you do is like going up to someone & saying you dont like the way they dress or the way they wear their hair. its too personal. maybe all of us non punctuators & non capitalisers on the board should gang up on you for a change and start pointing out personal stuff that we dont like about you. maybe youll get a clue then.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Posts: 7,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beancounter
I didn't say that they didn't give out infractions, but that they gave multiple warnings before giving the infraction.
I didn't say that they didn't give out infractions, but that they gave multiple warnings before giving the infraction.
I've had multiple infractions with no warnings before for any.
www.thesaucyvegan.com
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts
On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
As well it should be.
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,160
We discuss each case individually which is why it's different each time. Taking your example in the Heap, often those threads spiral out of control very quickly and when we realise it's degraded into personal attacks we would have to infract four, five, ten people. In those cases we prefer to do a mod post as a slap on the wrist to everyone involved, and only start handing out infractions if people ignore us and have to try to get the last word in. Same deal with warnings, we give them out when we give the poster the benefit of the doubt but also let them know their behaviour isn't okay and they need to do something about it. Again, if they ignore us, they get an infraction.
Other times it's clear to us that the post broke the rules and the poster should have known better, so we will give an infraction with no warning.
So I'm afraid we can't really give you a 'standard' infraction process. But we don't act on a whim, usually at least 3 or 4 mods chip in with their views on what we should do before someone actually warns/infracts/mod posts. This is why you should also remember that although one particular mod may give you a warning/infraction, it doesn't mean they're the only one who had a problem with your post or that they decided what to do about it. Usually it's just whoever first reads the thread after enough mods have agreed on what to do.
I hope that clears things up for you guys.
Just one last point - please don't discuss the details of your previous warnings/infractions here. These are private and not meant to be shared with the board. If you have a question about a specific case please PM one of the mods, or Michael if you think it's appropriate to take to him.
Other times it's clear to us that the post broke the rules and the poster should have known better, so we will give an infraction with no warning.
So I'm afraid we can't really give you a 'standard' infraction process. But we don't act on a whim, usually at least 3 or 4 mods chip in with their views on what we should do before someone actually warns/infracts/mod posts. This is why you should also remember that although one particular mod may give you a warning/infraction, it doesn't mean they're the only one who had a problem with your post or that they decided what to do about it. Usually it's just whoever first reads the thread after enough mods have agreed on what to do.
I hope that clears things up for you guys.
Just one last point - please don't discuss the details of your previous warnings/infractions here. These are private and not meant to be shared with the board. If you have a question about a specific case please PM one of the mods, or Michael if you think it's appropriate to take to him.
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts
On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kali
as things stand to date, its not an offense on this forum so until it is maybe you should pull your head in. if we have to put up with an infraction system at all, i reckon that they should start handing them out to people like you who keep picking on other posters for the way they choose to write. youre just rude. what you do is like going up to someone & saying you dont like the way they dress or the way they wear their hair. its too personal. maybe all of us non punctuators & non capitalisers on the board should gang up on you for a change and start pointing out personal stuff that we dont like about you. maybe youll get a clue then.
as things stand to date, its not an offense on this forum so until it is maybe you should pull your head in. if we have to put up with an infraction system at all, i reckon that they should start handing them out to people like you who keep picking on other posters for the way they choose to write. youre just rude. what you do is like going up to someone & saying you dont like the way they dress or the way they wear their hair. its too personal. maybe all of us non punctuators & non capitalisers on the board should gang up on you for a change and start pointing out personal stuff that we dont like about you. maybe youll get a clue then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Washoe
As well it should be.
As well it should be.
This bickering ends here, please.
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An infraction is your warning, I'm not sure how else to say it.
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I think people may be confused about what appears publicly v. privately. We will sometimes post in thread WARNINGS that things are getting out of hand and to cut it out, while at the same time issuing infractions to the guilty parties, so it isn't like some people had the chance to alter their behavior based on the warning prior to receiving the infraction. We don't post the infractions publicly, so unless you were the one receiving it, you wouldn't know whether the in-thread warning also included a private infraction.
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Also, beancounter, I think sometimes the multiple public warnings thing you're describing happens when it's more than just one or two people involved. We try and believe that people can discuss things without resorting to personal attacks, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. We get criticized for leaving attacks, criticized for deleting posts, and criticized for closing threads, so someone's going to be unhappy no matter what.
As for the private warnings, I don't deny that there's some amount of subjectivity there. I'm not sure we can be completely objective because we're human, but additionally, I don't think subjectivity is necessarily a bad thing. When someone comes seemingly out of nowhere in a thread and slams someone, they're more likely to receive an infraction than someone who is baited/insulted and responds in kind. How long a person's been on the board and what sort of interaction they've had with mods in the past come into play as well.
I would encourage you to contact one of the mods or Michael if there's a specific incident that troubles you. We *do* discuss things brought up to us, even if it turns out that we don't agree with your point of view.
The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJen
As for the private warnings, I don't deny that there's some amount of subjectivity there. I'm not sure we can be completely objective because we're human, but additionally, I don't think subjectivity is necessarily a bad thing. When someone comes seemingly out of nowhere in a thread and slams someone, they're more likely to receive an infraction than someone who is baited/insulted and responds in kind. How long a person's been on the board and what sort of interaction they've had with mods in the past come into play as well.
As for the private warnings, I don't deny that there's some amount of subjectivity there. I'm not sure we can be completely objective because we're human, but additionally, I don't think subjectivity is necessarily a bad thing. When someone comes seemingly out of nowhere in a thread and slams someone, they're more likely to receive an infraction than someone who is baited/insulted and responds in kind. How long a person's been on the board and what sort of interaction they've had with mods in the past come into play as well.
That sounds reasonable and fair to me.
Thanks!
Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
-nomad888
Veggie Regular
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts
On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
Sayin' isnt a word, its sayinG
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling
We discuss each case individually which is why it's different each time. Taking your example in the Heap, often those threads spiral out of control very quickly and when we realise it's degraded into personal attacks we would have to infract four, five, ten people. In those cases we prefer to do a mod post as a slap on the wrist to everyone involved, and only start handing out infractions if people ignore us and have to try to get the last word in. Same deal with warnings, we give them out when we give the poster the benefit of the doubt but also let them know their behaviour isn't okay and they need to do something about it. Again, if they ignore us, they get an infraction.
Other times it's clear to us that the post broke the rules and the poster should have known better, so we will give an infraction with no warning.
So I'm afraid we can't really give you a 'standard' infraction process. But we don't act on a whim, usually at least 3 or 4 mods chip in with their views on what we should do before someone actually warns/infracts/mod posts. This is why you should also remember that although one particular mod may give you a warning/infraction, it doesn't mean they're the only one who had a problem with your post or that they decided what to do about it. Usually it's just whoever first reads the thread after enough mods have agreed on what to do.
I hope that clears things up for you guys.
Just one last point - please don't discuss the details of your previous warnings/infractions here. These are private and not meant to be shared with the board. If you have a question about a specific case please PM one of the mods, or Michael if you think it's appropriate to take to him.
We discuss each case individually which is why it's different each time. Taking your example in the Heap, often those threads spiral out of control very quickly and when we realise it's degraded into personal attacks we would have to infract four, five, ten people. In those cases we prefer to do a mod post as a slap on the wrist to everyone involved, and only start handing out infractions if people ignore us and have to try to get the last word in. Same deal with warnings, we give them out when we give the poster the benefit of the doubt but also let them know their behaviour isn't okay and they need to do something about it. Again, if they ignore us, they get an infraction.
Other times it's clear to us that the post broke the rules and the poster should have known better, so we will give an infraction with no warning.
So I'm afraid we can't really give you a 'standard' infraction process. But we don't act on a whim, usually at least 3 or 4 mods chip in with their views on what we should do before someone actually warns/infracts/mod posts. This is why you should also remember that although one particular mod may give you a warning/infraction, it doesn't mean they're the only one who had a problem with your post or that they decided what to do about it. Usually it's just whoever first reads the thread after enough mods have agreed on what to do.
I hope that clears things up for you guys.
Just one last point - please don't discuss the details of your previous warnings/infractions here. These are private and not meant to be shared with the board. If you have a question about a specific case please PM one of the mods, or Michael if you think it's appropriate to take to him.
And that got me nowhere as the mod just said they would ignore my pms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabid_child
I think people may be confused about what appears publicly v. privately. We will sometimes post in thread WARNINGS that things are getting out of hand and to cut it out, while at the same time issuing infractions to the guilty parties, so it isn't like some people had the chance to alter their behavior based on the warning prior to receiving the infraction. We don't post the infractions publicly, so unless you were the one receiving it, you wouldn't know whether the in-thread warning also included a private infraction.
I think people may be confused about what appears publicly v. privately. We will sometimes post in thread WARNINGS that things are getting out of hand and to cut it out, while at the same time issuing infractions to the guilty parties, so it isn't like some people had the chance to alter their behavior based on the warning prior to receiving the infraction. We don't post the infractions publicly, so unless you were the one receiving it, you wouldn't know whether the in-thread warning also included a private infraction.
Why shouldnt fractions be shared? This is what i dont get, people get given infractions for whatever, but nobody else knows, so they too could say the exact same thing, not relaising its already been frowned upon.
You say pms are private, yet if i pm a mod, they will share that with other mods, hardly fair.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanie
Why shouldnt fractions be shared? This is what i dont get, people get given infractions for whatever, but nobody else knows, so they too could say the exact same thing, not relaising its already been frowned upon.
You say pms are private, yet if i pm a mod, they will share that with other mods, hardly fair.
Why shouldnt fractions be shared? This is what i dont get, people get given infractions for whatever, but nobody else knows, so they too could say the exact same thing, not relaising its already been frowned upon.
You say pms are private, yet if i pm a mod, they will share that with other mods, hardly fair.
This isn't going anywhere constructive so I'm going to reiterate my point and then close the thread.
The rules are pretty clear as to what is and is not acceptable. We don't just randomly dole out infractions to people for no reason.
An infraction is not a big deal. It's our way of pointing out that you've broken the rules and asking you not to do it again. To expect the moderators to send a personal note to each and every person who is given an infraction is unreasonable. If you don't do it again, then great, nothing ever comes from it. If you do do it again then it allows us to look back and see that you've already been warned in the past.
Infractions will never be posted publicly. The software is not set up to do that. And it would create a lot of animosity by making a big deal out of absolutely nothing.
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I know this is a closed thread, but I just wanted to add that the mods *don't* generally share private message info with others without asking. Sometimes we do, because the information is not particularly well, private (someone reporting a troll, or asking for a temporary ban). The personal stuff...that stays that way unless we talk to the member involved.
The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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