Consistency of infraction system - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 01-31-2010, 08:59 AM
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I recently received an infraction, and I have a question/concern.



First, before anyone starts telling me to "love it or leave it", I want to clarify that I have no problem with the TOS and agree to it without exception. I also accept that I broke the rules, and the infraction was appropriate.



My question however is n regard to how the infraction system is applied. I have seen some mods repeatedly give warning about personal attacks for some pretty heavy personal attacks, I have personally received an infraction with one warning, and I have heard of others who received an infraction without explanation.



So, does VB have a standard "threshold" policy, or is handing out infractions at the whim of the mod who happens to be viewing the thread at the time.?

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#2 Old 01-31-2010, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Beancounter View Post

I have seen some mods repeatedly give warning about personal attacks for some pretty heavy personal attacks,



How do you know they did not also give an infraction in those cases?



I have been given an infraction with no warning - it did include an explanation, but none was really needed. I deserved it. And it was worth it.
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#3 Old 01-31-2010, 09:05 AM
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How do you know they did not also give an infraction in those cases?



I have been given an infraction with no warning - it did include an explanatin, but none was really needed. I deserved it. And it was worth it.



I didn't say that they didn't give out infractions, but that they gave multiple warnings before giving the infraction.

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#4 Old 01-31-2010, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Beancounter View Post

I didn't say that they didn't give out infractions, but that they gave multiple warnings before giving the infraction.



They still might give them out. You can't really know if/when they give them out, or to whom.

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#5 Old 01-31-2010, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by LyricGaia View Post

They still might give them out. You can't really know if/when they give them out, or to whom.



In the example I saw,the warning happened one after the other very quickly, so I didn't think it was likely that they had time to hand out the infractions to multiple individuals.



Just a thought, there are so many personal attacks going on in the Heap, the mods must be as busy as switchboard operators during peak usage times.

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#6 Old 01-31-2010, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Beancounter View Post

In the example I saw,the warning happened one after the other very quickly, so I didn't think it was likely that they had time to hand out the infractions to multiple individuals.



Just a thought, there are so many personal attacks going on in the Heap, the mods must be as busy as switchboard operators during peak usage times.



They might have handed out the infractions before they posted the warnings?

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#7 Old 01-31-2010, 09:25 AM
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I haven't gotten an infraction... (Lord knows why not, I've been hormonal and wenchy enough to deserve one a few times.)



But I have thought it might be nice to have some sort of system we could refer to to understand how many warnings or infractions or points or whatever it takes before a temporary ban... How many of those before a permanent ban... What are offenses worthy of an instant permanent ban, etc... However they do it, it would be nice to know. We know the rules, but it might be nice to know the penal system behind them, out of fairness to users.



Then I thought that might actually be more of a pain in the ass for the mods and would lead to people getting all, "But I KNOW this person has been temporarily banned twice before and omg my best friend did THIS and was banned forevAr and that's NOT FAIR so fix it right now!"



I dunno. I ran a forum once and my list of bannable offenses included "acting Un-Australian" and "spelling ridiculous with an E" so I'm probably not the best person to discuss these matters.
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#8 Old 01-31-2010, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Semicharmed View Post

I haven't gotten an infraction... (Lord knows why not, I've been hormonal and wenchy enough to deserve one a few times.)



But I have thought it might be nice to have some sort of system we could refer to to understand how many warnings or infractions or points or whatever it takes before a temporary ban... How many of those before a permanent ban... What are offenses worthy of an instant permanent ban, etc... However they do it, it would be nice to know. We know the rules, but it might be nice to know the penal system behind them, out of fairness to users.



Then I thought that might actually be more of a pain in the ass for the mods and would lead to people getting all, "But I KNOW this person has been temporarily banned twice before and omg my best friend did THIS and was banned forevAr and that's NOT FAIR so fix it right now!"



I dunno. I ran a forum once and my list of bannable offenses included "acting Un-Australian" and "spelling ridiculous with an E" so I'm probably not the best person to discuss these matters.



rotfl how have you not gotten one! I have!

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#9 Old 01-31-2010, 09:42 AM
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rotfl how have you not gotten one!



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#10 Old 01-31-2010, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by LyricGaia View Post

They might have handed out the infractions before they posted the warnings?





Yea, you're right. there's no way to know for sure. But don't warning typically come first?

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#11 Old 01-31-2010, 09:48 AM
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An infraction is basically a warning. It's no big deal to receive one. And there is an explaination of how they work in a sticky in this forum.

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#12 Old 01-31-2010, 10:03 AM
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I got banned from an infraction which was in correct, yet the mod in question (i cant remember who it was or id name them) would not accept liability, and just brushed it off with "michael makes the rules, talk to hi, im not going to reply to you any more".

So, id say it is down to the individual mod as to do what they see fit.
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#13 Old 01-31-2010, 06:43 PM
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If someone thinks they've been treated unfairly they can check with me but infractions generally aren't a big deal. After they're given we usually don't give them a second thought, it's just to keep track of who is consistently breaking the rules.

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#14 Old 01-31-2010, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by stanie View Post

I got banned from an infraction which was in correct, yet the mod in question (i cant remember who it was or id name them) would not accept liability, and just brushed it off with "michael makes the rules, talk to hi, im not going to reply to you any more".

So, id say it is down to the individual mod as to do what they see fit.



On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...
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#15 Old 01-31-2010, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts View Post

On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...



as things stand to date, its not an offense on this forum so until it is maybe you should pull your head in. if we have to put up with an infraction system at all, i reckon that they should start handing them out to people like you who keep picking on other posters for the way they choose to write. youre just rude. what you do is like going up to someone & saying you dont like the way they dress or the way they wear their hair. its too personal. maybe all of us non punctuators & non capitalisers on the board should gang up on you for a change and start pointing out personal stuff that we dont like about you. maybe youll get a clue then.
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#16 Old 01-31-2010, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beancounter View Post

I didn't say that they didn't give out infractions, but that they gave multiple warnings before giving the infraction.

I've had multiple infractions with no warnings before for any.

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#17 Old 02-01-2010, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts View Post

On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...



As well it should be.
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#18 Old 02-01-2010, 05:11 AM
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We discuss each case individually which is why it's different each time. Taking your example in the Heap, often those threads spiral out of control very quickly and when we realise it's degraded into personal attacks we would have to infract four, five, ten people. In those cases we prefer to do a mod post as a slap on the wrist to everyone involved, and only start handing out infractions if people ignore us and have to try to get the last word in. Same deal with warnings, we give them out when we give the poster the benefit of the doubt but also let them know their behaviour isn't okay and they need to do something about it. Again, if they ignore us, they get an infraction.



Other times it's clear to us that the post broke the rules and the poster should have known better, so we will give an infraction with no warning.



So I'm afraid we can't really give you a 'standard' infraction process. But we don't act on a whim, usually at least 3 or 4 mods chip in with their views on what we should do before someone actually warns/infracts/mod posts. This is why you should also remember that although one particular mod may give you a warning/infraction, it doesn't mean they're the only one who had a problem with your post or that they decided what to do about it. Usually it's just whoever first reads the thread after enough mods have agreed on what to do.



I hope that clears things up for you guys.



Just one last point - please don't discuss the details of your previous warnings/infractions here. These are private and not meant to be shared with the board. If you have a question about a specific case please PM one of the mods, or Michael if you think it's appropriate to take to him.
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#19 Old 02-01-2010, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts View Post

On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...



Quote:
Originally Posted by kali View Post

as things stand to date, its not an offense on this forum so until it is maybe you should pull your head in. if we have to put up with an infraction system at all, i reckon that they should start handing them out to people like you who keep picking on other posters for the way they choose to write. youre just rude. what you do is like going up to someone & saying you dont like the way they dress or the way they wear their hair. its too personal. maybe all of us non punctuators & non capitalisers on the board should gang up on you for a change and start pointing out personal stuff that we dont like about you. maybe youll get a clue then.



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As well it should be.



This bickering ends here, please.
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#20 Old 02-01-2010, 07:16 AM
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An infraction is your warning, I'm not sure how else to say it.

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#21 Old 02-01-2010, 07:30 AM
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I think people may be confused about what appears publicly v. privately. We will sometimes post in thread WARNINGS that things are getting out of hand and to cut it out, while at the same time issuing infractions to the guilty parties, so it isn't like some people had the chance to alter their behavior based on the warning prior to receiving the infraction. We don't post the infractions publicly, so unless you were the one receiving it, you wouldn't know whether the in-thread warning also included a private infraction.

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#22 Old 02-01-2010, 09:43 AM
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Also, beancounter, I think sometimes the multiple public warnings thing you're describing happens when it's more than just one or two people involved. We try and believe that people can discuss things without resorting to personal attacks, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. We get criticized for leaving attacks, criticized for deleting posts, and criticized for closing threads, so someone's going to be unhappy no matter what.



As for the private warnings, I don't deny that there's some amount of subjectivity there. I'm not sure we can be completely objective because we're human, but additionally, I don't think subjectivity is necessarily a bad thing. When someone comes seemingly out of nowhere in a thread and slams someone, they're more likely to receive an infraction than someone who is baited/insulted and responds in kind. How long a person's been on the board and what sort of interaction they've had with mods in the past come into play as well.



I would encourage you to contact one of the mods or Michael if there's a specific incident that troubles you. We *do* discuss things brought up to us, even if it turns out that we don't agree with your point of view.

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#23 Old 02-01-2010, 10:53 AM
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As for the private warnings, I don't deny that there's some amount of subjectivity there. I'm not sure we can be completely objective because we're human, but additionally, I don't think subjectivity is necessarily a bad thing. When someone comes seemingly out of nowhere in a thread and slams someone, they're more likely to receive an infraction than someone who is baited/insulted and responds in kind. How long a person's been on the board and what sort of interaction they've had with mods in the past come into play as well.



That sounds reasonable and fair to me.



Thanks!

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#24 Old 02-01-2010, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts View Post

On many forums, not using punctuation or the shift key is a ban-able offense. Just sayin'...

Sayin' isnt a word, its sayinG



Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling View Post

We discuss each case individually which is why it's different each time. Taking your example in the Heap, often those threads spiral out of control very quickly and when we realise it's degraded into personal attacks we would have to infract four, five, ten people. In those cases we prefer to do a mod post as a slap on the wrist to everyone involved, and only start handing out infractions if people ignore us and have to try to get the last word in. Same deal with warnings, we give them out when we give the poster the benefit of the doubt but also let them know their behaviour isn't okay and they need to do something about it. Again, if they ignore us, they get an infraction.



Other times it's clear to us that the post broke the rules and the poster should have known better, so we will give an infraction with no warning.



So I'm afraid we can't really give you a 'standard' infraction process. But we don't act on a whim, usually at least 3 or 4 mods chip in with their views on what we should do before someone actually warns/infracts/mod posts. This is why you should also remember that although one particular mod may give you a warning/infraction, it doesn't mean they're the only one who had a problem with your post or that they decided what to do about it. Usually it's just whoever first reads the thread after enough mods have agreed on what to do.



I hope that clears things up for you guys.



Just one last point - please don't discuss the details of your previous warnings/infractions here. These are private and not meant to be shared with the board. If you have a question about a specific case please PM one of the mods, or Michael if you think it's appropriate to take to him.



And that got me nowhere as the mod just said they would ignore my pms.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rabid_child View Post

I think people may be confused about what appears publicly v. privately. We will sometimes post in thread WARNINGS that things are getting out of hand and to cut it out, while at the same time issuing infractions to the guilty parties, so it isn't like some people had the chance to alter their behavior based on the warning prior to receiving the infraction. We don't post the infractions publicly, so unless you were the one receiving it, you wouldn't know whether the in-thread warning also included a private infraction.



Why shouldnt fractions be shared? This is what i dont get, people get given infractions for whatever, but nobody else knows, so they too could say the exact same thing, not relaising its already been frowned upon.

You say pms are private, yet if i pm a mod, they will share that with other mods, hardly fair.
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#25 Old 02-01-2010, 11:50 AM
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Why shouldnt fractions be shared? This is what i dont get, people get given infractions for whatever, but nobody else knows, so they too could say the exact same thing, not relaising its already been frowned upon.

You say pms are private, yet if i pm a mod, they will share that with other mods, hardly fair.



This isn't going anywhere constructive so I'm going to reiterate my point and then close the thread.



The rules are pretty clear as to what is and is not acceptable. We don't just randomly dole out infractions to people for no reason.



An infraction is not a big deal. It's our way of pointing out that you've broken the rules and asking you not to do it again. To expect the moderators to send a personal note to each and every person who is given an infraction is unreasonable. If you don't do it again, then great, nothing ever comes from it. If you do do it again then it allows us to look back and see that you've already been warned in the past.



Infractions will never be posted publicly. The software is not set up to do that. And it would create a lot of animosity by making a big deal out of absolutely nothing.

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#26 Old 02-01-2010, 03:21 PM
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I know this is a closed thread, but I just wanted to add that the mods *don't* generally share private message info with others without asking. Sometimes we do, because the information is not particularly well, private (someone reporting a troll, or asking for a temporary ban). The personal stuff...that stays that way unless we talk to the member involved.

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