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Hunting is more humane? - Page 2

post #31 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickle00 View Post




Peace & Love!







Quote:



Peace & Love!!



How come I get Peace & Love with two exclamation marks and Ajax gets only one exclamation mark?
post #32 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajax13 View Post

I ate meat most of my life. Only been veg*n for the past three years or so.



Well some of them have the same "blinders" on that we did when we ate meat. They're programmed to believe that's "the circle of life" and that it's natural and blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, ya. Even if they see that there IS pain involved and they UNDERSTAND that they still have this view that it's natural and that's the way life is. However, some do figure it out. A friend of mine, who had hunted his whole life, became a vegetarian when he was 22 (I think) after killing a deer. He said after he shot him and went to carrry him away to the car he FELT his pain and what he had done to him. He hasn't eaten meat in over 6 years this deer season. Some figure it out and some don't. I wish with all my heart and soul that everyone would open their eyes and see things the way they truly are. I wish they could have the defining moment I had when I finally realized WHY eating meat was no bueno but sadly, I'm not sure if everyone will
post #33 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickle00 View Post

I wish with all my heart and soul that everyone would open their eyes and see things the way they truly are. I wish they could have the defining moment I had when I finally realized WHY eating meat was no bueno but sadly, I'm not sure if everyone will



... and not just with hunting. There is so much pain and suffering in this world that is truly needless. I know I want to continue to eliminate that from my life as much as possible but I'm lazy and inconsistent. So I keep trying.
post #34 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

How come I get Peace & Love with two exclamation marks and Ajax gets only one exclamation mark?



That first post wasn't solely FOR Ajax...it was to anyone who assumes hunters ONLY appreciate the kill and not the food but either way, I'm at work yo! I'm typin quick and miniminzing...typing quick and minimizing!!
post #35 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

... and not just with hunting. There is so much pain and suffering in this world that is truly needless. I know I want to continue to eliminate that from my life as much as possible but I'm lazy and inconsistent. So I keep trying.



Word. I wish more people would focus on the things in life that ARE wonderful!! If people focused on POSITIVE things they would have a more positive attitude and with positive thoughts, come positive actions so if we all just got ourselves a little more positive can you imagine how much positvity would be created?? Ah... it would miraculous!!
post #36 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickle00 View Post

I don't think it's fair for someone to say that hunters don't appreciate their food more and that it's only the kill that they appreciate. Unless, they have hunted themselves and even then it's still not fair to make an assumption on the way someone else thinks or feels about anything in particular. There's so many individual experiences and occurences in one's lives that bring them to a certain belief in something and it's not fair to judge someone based on what YOU think or feel about it....did that make any sense? I'm horrible at wording my points. I apologize!!



I understand what you're saying. But while I've never hunted myself, I don't know that I shouldn't judge hunters at all. I'm sure most hunters are not blood-thirsty sadists, but are there degrees? And I'm not referring to hunters who absolutely need to eat meat to survive, because I don't think that's really the case now for most hunters in the United States. If a person decides s/he "must" have meat, perhaps hunting is at least more emotionally honest than buying factory farmed meat.



It's only a suspicion I have, that when some hunters defend their "right to hunt" they're really defending a pleasure, and a pleasure that many people would say is questionable. It will have to be shown that hunting for sport (or pleasure) is somehow not comparable to the murdering of humans. We as a society certainly condemn murderers of humans, and we judge this action as condemnable without, usually, ever having performed the act. Does this mean our judgement is unfair?
post #37 of 91
I think that modern hunting is far less humane. The animals are given almost no chance; if they're "lucky" they get not-immediately-fatally-shot and manage to run away to either bleed out or be crippled for the rest of their (likely short) lives.



In the area I live there are many hunters; we have a very large deer population and people are allowed to go wild every year on them. They're allowed to do this because we have "too many" and they're a danger to drivers. Well gee, I wonder why there are so many deer... oh, we killed off all the wolves, cougars and bears in the area and won't allow them to remigrate! You know, since we're the only large animal with any right to kill deer.



Of the hunters I've known, most will speak with joy about the stalking, shooting, hauling back, skinning and butchering of the animals. It's chilling. They really love it. Oh, and the fishers love those fish flopping around and suffocating. It's sadism, pure and simple. These people aren't hunting because they're starving... They're doing it because they love the kill.



Yet that isn't the only reason I take issue with it; hunters aren't often poor. They don't need the meat, and it isn't like that is the only meat they eat. They're also going to the store and purchasing it. So they're not only contributing to factory farming, but they're also killing the animals that are still free! And the average hunter probably eats a lot more meat than other people; I know the two I used to work with ate steak pretty much every lunch



So let's say they're buying 80% of the meat a regular consumer purchases (I doubt it's that low)... Well, the statistics are that a regular person is alloted about one cow for their consumption per year, right? So they're probably still eating that cow, and its likely their bird and fish purchases that are declined the most (hunters seem to have a thing for red meat)... Which means they're not only eating a cow, but probably a deer or two (or more) each year. That adds up to a lot more meat consumption; they're perpetuating meat eating far more than a regular consumer.



Then there is the fact that they do butcher it themselves. I often hear the argument that this makes them better than people who just purchase meat. I highly disagree with this! Many people are disgusted by raw meat; they won't touch it or will only do so to a limited extent and are less likely to butcher animals. If they do so it's the rare fish or bird, but it isn't a regular thing. I think that's a good sign... disgust over the idea of a dead animal and possibly guilt; that means they're probably reachable! Who knows, just showing them something like "Meat Your Meet" might be enough to convert them. Yet a hunter has been drenched in the blood of animals; he's felt their skin being peeled off, he's cut off their heads and stared into their dead eyes, and probably relished the feeling of it. How could anyone here possibly look up to someone doing that? They're so, so much farther away from ever giving up meat.



I find them disgusting and I think their actions are much worse than those of people who just purchase products made from animals. I like to think that's just intentional ignorance (I don't want to know about it!!! as my mother would shout to me whenever I tried to bring up animal suffering) and they can be reached; they don't directly cause intentional animal suffering, but they do contribute towards it. Yet the hunter directly, intentionally and willingly harms and kills animals. They like doing it. I don't understand the mindset of looking up to that. The modern hunter kills for sport!!!
post #38 of 91
^^^ Good post. This pretty much speaks for me too. In fact, it sounded so familiar, I looked up where you live, cause I thought you must be a neighbor.
post #39 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikikamukau View Post

Of the hunters I've known, most will speak with joy about the stalking, shooting, hauling back, skinning and butchering of the animals. It's chilling. They really love it.



I've had a lot of the same experience. I live in a state full of deer hunters too. You can't drive 1 mile without seeing several trucks with hunting and NRA stickers on the rear windows.



Needless to say, I overhear a lot of hunting conversations too. And quite a bit of it is distressing. At my old job, I worked alongside guys who would talk about hunting at least 80% of the day---day in and day out. I won't go into grisly details, but they were OBSESSED with the hunt and the kill--to the degree that one of the men talked about blasting just about anything that ventured through his yard--from birds to garter snakes. I can only describe it as obsession. I vividly remember one proclaiming, "I'd go crazy if I couldn't go out huntin' and killin'." (It should be noted that I never discussed my beliefs at this job. They had no idea about my thoughts on the matter.)



I remember sitting in a college Psych 101 course. The professor asked the class what people could do to blow off steam and aggression. About 5 guys yelled out, "Go hunting!!!"
slops, gloops, and gruels.
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post #40 of 91
That guy who cries at the side of his friend the elk needs to stop projecting his fear of life, failure, death, and inadequacy onto a completely separate animal and get some therapy for himself, instead. Obviously he needs a catharsis of some sort; you don't put yourself through an emotional wringer like that again and again for no reason.





I think a lot of these folks fear dying and fear pain and fear being at someone else's mercy. So they see the nobility of the animal they hunt and kill, and respect it, and imagine that when the time comes, they too will stand fearless and wild, vulnerable and majestic.







The following quotes are from Roger Yates, at this website:

THE SOCIAL CONSTRUCTION OF HUMAN BEINGS AND OTHER ANIMALS IN HUMAN-NONHUMAN RELATIONS.

Welfarism and Rights: A Contemporary Sociological Analysis.

by Roger Yates 2004




Quote:
With conservationist themes he can conceive of killing as caring; his heavy dominionistic responsibility feels as real as the arrow shaft sliding back across the rest as my fingers draw back the string (ibid). He remains motionless and unobserved, carrying out societys sometimes distasteful (but exciting) task of controlling the nonhuman world; taming the wild; caring while killing:



"The young buck stands before me. A mere 20 yards or so separates us. Intense excitement mixed with anxiety has been building in my heart, stomach and throat since the animal first appeared. A quiet beyond quiet rings in my ears. I let the string slip over my fingers and with it goes as much sorrow as joy.

...



Yes, I have taken its life, and for that I do feel remorse. But, as a human being there is a connection to the earth and her animals that is established only when we take responsibility for the blood ourselves and for this I am grateful" (ibid).



... Furthermore, the notion of nature controlled, and absolutely requiring direct human orderly intervention is clearly identified. Also seen are ideas that paternalist humanity must sometimes (perhaps like a caring but firm father figure) be cruel to be kind in its objective dealings with in-need-of-taming nature. With a potentially painful mixture of sorrow and joy, humanity gallantly takes on board the onerous responsibility of managing and tending - as in Baumans gardening - the savage earth. Even when some necessary tasks are bloody and repugnant, humanity does not let Mother Earth down because she desperately needs his kindly and connected control. What kind of mad bitch would she be if Mother Earth were not subject to this benevolent ordering?



Quote:
However, hunting for her [Marjorie Spiegel] is ultimately a demonstration of absolute power over someone else: a demonstration of the ability to end someones life. By deliberately using the pronoun someone to define other animals, Spiegal emphasises that hunting transforms a life into a thing; it turns a vital, living being with a past and potential future into a corpse (ibid). Indeed, it is noteworthy that wild animals become property once - but not until - they are killed. A living sentient being transformed to an owned object and thing. What hunters do, Spiegal suggests, is provide visible proof that they have the power to bring about this transformation.



Quote:
from a book by white hunter, R. Gordon Cummings:



The elephant stood broadside to me, at upwards of one hundred yards, and his attention at the moment was occupied with the dogs... I fired at his shoulder, and secured him with a single shot. The ball caught him high on the shoulder-blade, rendering him instantly dead lame; and before the echo of the bullet could reach my ear, I plainly saw the elephant was mine... I resolved to devote a short time to the contemplation of this noble elephant before laying him low; accordingly, having off-saddled the horses beneath a shady tree, which was to be my quarters for the night and the ensuing day, I quickly kindled a fire and put on the kettle, and in a few minutes my coffee was prepared. There I sat in my forest home, coolly sipping my coffee, with one of the finest elephants in Africa awaiting my pleasure beside a neighbouring tree. It was indeed a striking scene; and as I gazed upon the stupendous veteran of the forest, I thought of the red deer which I loved to follow in my native land, and felt that, though fate had driven me to follow a more daring and arduous avocation in a distant land, it was a good exchange that I had made, for I was now chief over boundless forests, which yielded unspeakably more noble and exciting sport. Having admired the elephant for a considerable time, I resolved to make experiments for vulnerable spots... [He bungles this again and again; eventually, after even he had become a little worried, he succeeds in wounding the elephant fatally.] Large tears now trickled from his eyes, which he slowly shut and opened, his colossal frame quivered convulsively, and, falling on his side, he expired.



(Cummings, quoted in Midgley 183: 14-15, comments by Midgley).
post #41 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajax13 View Post


I honestly wonder how hunters do "see it". What blinders must be put on to not see what is fairly obvious pain behavior? If they need to be educated that the animals they hunt do feel pain, would they then stop hunting? I suspect many hunters are well aware that they feel pain, and that plays into the "thrill of the hunt".



It could be that you're right:



Quote:
Mounting evidence for fish intelligence is likely to re-ignite the controversy over angling, which has focused mainly on whether fish can feel pain. "This research moves the debate along, by showing that fish aren't just swimming vegetables," said Dawn Carr, the director of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. "The more we find out about fish, the less likely people are to feel comfortable about impaling them on a hook for fun."



Anglers dismissed such views. "Their intelligence just adds to the interest - it would be awful if people were only catching fish that were stupid," said Rodney Coldron, a spokesman for the National Federation of Anglers. "I think it might attract more people to fishing, by showing it's more of an even contest."



http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/InNews/fishmemory.htm



post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

Boy, I've heard that so often "I'm opposed to factory farms but hunting and free-range farms are ok -- they're more humane". I guess it's all relative. But how can this be considered humane in any sense:

I'm finding your threads of late to be incendiary in nature rather than actual honest open discussions. Your tone has changed I guess. So again I'm going to not waste my time with this thread since it's been made clear that you don't want a discussion of different opinions you simply want to state your own.
post #43 of 91
Thread Starter 
Actually, kpickell, I had a lovely conversation with Nickle00 that starts on page #3. She grew up with hunters and we ended up agreeing that while hunting is bad we all contribute to suffering and we agreed that it would be nice to eliminate more and more they ways we cause suffering.



I've heard you and others state that you find hunting to be "more humane". In this thread then I suggested that it be termed "less cruel" instead of "more humane". "Cruel" should be the starting point, not "humane".



I'm not sure how you or anyone could in anyway be in favor of what you see in the OP. And I do watch hunting shows and while the hunters there do not hoot and laugh they have a similar attitude of thoroughly enjoying the hunt. And they travel many, many miles to other states, provinces, and even countries just to do it.



Anyway, K, I find that when you are faced with these issues you prefer to just to state a vague objection to others' opinions and then you leave. And that's ok, if that's what you feel is best.



And as Nickle00 is fond of saying: Peace and Love!!
post #44 of 91
Wow!! K, totally can't read anymore of this thread. Like I said, I grew up around hunters and just about every person whom I'm close to in my life hunts. They really don't see things the way we do and I CANNOT sit here and listen to someone call my father, grandfather, aunt's, uncles, cousins and friends freaking sadistic and evil and blah, blah, blah. I know these people inside and out and they're all gentle, wonderful people who have tons of love and peace within themselves. Unfortunately, they see animals in a different way then I do but that does NOT make them cruel, evil, sadistic people!! I won't be returning to this thread so there's really no use in quoting me and trying to argue about my family if anyone plans on doing that!! K? Thanks!! Peace & Love!! Muah!!
post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

It could be that you're right:







http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/InNews/fishmemory.htm






Just an FYI - that's a nearly-dead, spawned out coho salmon. It died from starvation a few days to a week after that photo was taken.
post #46 of 91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post

Just an FYI - that's a nearly-dead, spawned out coho salmon. It died from starvation a few days to a week after that photo was taken.



So no one will be fishing for this one then? Except the bears -- they love to feast in the fall on these spawning, dying and dead coho.



I did try to find some other fishy pictures but I couldn't find one that was jpg. I'm not sure if the other ones would show up on VB and I did want to spruce up that post with a picture.
post #47 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickle00 View Post

Unfortunately, they see animals in a different way then I do but that does NOT make them cruel, evil, sadistic people!!



The nazis saw jews in a different way than we do.



Slave owners saw blacks in a different way than we do.



Just because they think it's right doesn't mean it isn't cruel.
post #48 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickle00 View Post

Wow!! K, totally can't read anymore of this thread. Like I said, I grew up around hunters and just about every person whom I'm close to in my life hunts. They really don't see things the way we do and I CANNOT sit here and listen to someone call my father, grandfather, aunt's, uncles, cousins and friends freaking sadistic and evil and blah, blah, blah. I know these people inside and out and they're all gentle, wonderful people who have tons of love and peace within themselves. Unfortunately, they see animals in a different way then I do but that does NOT make them cruel, evil, sadistic people!! I won't be returning to this thread so there's really no use in quoting me and trying to argue about my family if anyone plans on doing that!! K? Thanks!! Peace & Love!! Muah!!



I can see both sides, as we discussed earlier:



I used to laugh at veg*ns so I think I would've been labeled in a similar fashion by some on this board if they'd known me then. Seriously, some veg*ns would tell me about the cows and I would just laugh. I didn't get it. I was brainwashed to believe what I believed. But in other aspects of my life I was, as you put it Nickle00, part of the "gentle, wonderful people who have tons of love and peace within themselves."



I also understand those who feel incensed about the hunting. It is cruel and unnecessary (for the vast majority in Western countries).



To me it is necessary to separate the concepts of "cruel actions" with "'evil' people". I don't feel like I'm a better person than the hunter but on this issue I do feel more informed. But the hunter may disagree. That's fine and legal. In fact someone could lobby to bring back dog-fighting to the States. I would argue against hunting and against dog-fighting.



I see hunters the same way as I see ranchers -- they are all potential Howard Lymans.



eta: but just because I see them as potential Howard Lymans doesn't mean that I won't strongly oppose hunting and ranching. It must be seen for what it is or the change won't happen. If the welfarists on this board continue to call hunting "more humane" then it just shows the need for OPs like the one in this thread. It may be "less cruel" than factory farming but it is still cruel.



I'm glad there were people in my life who kept tying to tell me the truth -- if they had kept their thoughts to themselves it could be that I'd still be eating meat today. Bacon. Yum.
post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

I can see both sides, as we discussed earlier:



I used to laugh at veg*ns so I think I would've been labeled in a similar fashion by some on this board if they'd known me then. Seriously, some veg*ns would tell me about the cows and I would just laugh. I didn't get it. I was brainwashed to believe what I believed. But in other aspects of my life I was, as you put it Nickle00, part of the "gentle, wonderful people who have tons of love and peace within themselves."



I also understand those who feel incensed about the hunting. It is cruel and unnecessary (for the vast majority in Western countries).



To me it is necessary to separate the concepts of "cruel actions" with "'evil' people". I don't feel like I'm a better person than the hunter but on this issue I do feel more informed. But the hunter may disagree. That's fine and legal. In fact someone could lobby to bring back dog-fighting to the States. I would argue against hunting and against dog-fighting.



I see hunters the same way as I see ranchers -- they are all potential Howard Lymans.





I totally told myself I wasn't coming back to this thread and I wasn't going to until I saw that you posted!! I find disucssions with you, Mr. Sun pleasant and refreshing!! I always stay away from discussions like this because I'm not down with the harshness and narrow mindedness of the way most people post when debating. I like that you and I can converse very open mindedly (< is that even a word?...LoL) and in such a positive, peaceful and friendly manner!! That may be due to the fact that we can see things from both sides and other people just arent' able to see things from the prespective of others sometimes which I totally get....doesn't mean it doesn't totally rub me the wrong way!!



Waiki-- I agree with you in most of your posts here on the boards, just not this one. I just find them a bit callous & unforgiving...the posts that is, not you but how 'bout we stop debating this?? I feel negativity starting to emanate from this thread and I'm having SUCH a wonderful day I'd like to stay on the sunny side!! Sound good?
post #50 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickle00 View Post

I totally told myself I wasn't coming back to this thread and I wasn't going to until I saw that you posted!! I find disucssions with you, Mr. Sun pleasant and refreshing!!



Well, don't post such things out in the open. People might get the wrong idea about me and think that I'm actually open to discussion rather than thinking that I "don't want a discussion of different opinions you simply want to state your own."
post #51 of 91
I just think that all of us, as part of our human natures, have tendencies to be cruel. Perhaps veg*ns manifest that in different ways than hunters - maybe by some of them being cruel to humans instead of non-humans. Human psychology is no doubt complex.



I said there could be degrees of cruelty. And I'm the first to admit that all people have potentials for good and bad. Who can say that they are free of all moral blindspots? And yes, I know hunters here at my work who are good-natured, pleasant people, and who are probably quite moral in other areas of their lives. Does that mean they are blameless in all areas?



And, of course, I include myself in this judgement. I know there are moral areas to my life that I need to work on.
post #52 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajax13 View Post

I just think that all of us, as part of our human natures, have tendencies to be cruel. Perhaps veg*ns manifest that in different ways than hunters - maybe by some of them being cruel to humans instead of non-humans. Human psychology is no doubt complex.



I said there could be degrees of cruelty. And I'm the first to admit that all people have potentials for good and bad. Who can say that they are free of all moral blindspots? And yes, I know hunters here at my work who are good-natured, pleasant people, and who are probably quite moral in other areas of their lives. Does that mean they are blameless in all areas?



And, of course, I include myself in this judgement. I know there are moral areas to my life that I need to work on.



That's not what she's saying:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickle00 View Post

I don't think it's any more humane but I can respect an omnivore who kills, skins and cooks his own food more than one who picks up a pound of burger from their local supermarket. At least hunters understand exactly HOW that food got on their plate and they have more of an appreciation for it.



I'm sure there will be a lot of people who disagree with me for having any respect at all for them but it's not as though they're saying I understand that I'm killing an animal who was feelings, feels pain and deserves to live yet I don't care. They just don't see things that way, I can't help that or think badly of them because of it. I'm not saying it's right or anything but I remember when I thought along those same lines...



I ate meat for years and years and years but only because I was not in the frame of mind to realize how wrong for me it was to do that. I won't look down on anyone else for doing something I once too did while I was in the same un-enlightened state of mind.



Peace & Love!!



I think we're in agreement with the idea that it's wrong. But it's the way we look at hunters. Like I've said earlier in this thread -- I watch hunting shows and find that I don't hate them. I watch so I can learn about hunting and hunters.



I see myself in that last paragraph that Nickle00 wrote in the post. So how do we change from what we perceive (this is subjective) as unenlightened to enlightened -- both within ourselves and in others.



I think sometimes we do need to scream and shout but I look more to the example of Gandhi and MLK. The both fought against horrible violence and oppression but they did it with respect for those they opposed. They were effective. They weren't quiet but they were respectful. They understood their own failings and in turn were able to understand others' failings.
post #53 of 91
She took offense to what she perceived to be insults to her family, by supposedly calling them sadists and cruel for hunting. I'm trying to point out that humans can display cruelty in different ways, and still do good deeds in other facets of their lives.



It's one thing to be open-minded about things, I have nothing against that. I think it's very important to try to understand all sides of any issue. But I also don't think things should be sugar-coated at every turn, because this can too easily lead to moral complacency and putting people's feelings on too much of a pedestal. I must insist that there be proportion in life. I choose to be more concerned about a creature's fundamental right to life than the possibility of hurting someone's feelings.



And I don't think I, myself, ever called her family sadists. If hunters see meat as necessary, and they see hunting as more humane than buying factory farmed meat, and they hunt from within that mindset, then I would have a hard time labeling them as sadists. But again, the reality of the hunted animal's pain must be dealt with by any mentally sound, responsible adult.
post #54 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajax13 View Post

She took offense to what she perceived to be insults to her family, by supposedly calling them sadists and cruel for hunting. I'm trying to point out that humans can display cruelty in different ways, and still do good deeds in other facets of their lives.



It was Waiki who said the act was sadism. So he did separate the actions of the hunters from the who they are. But she did take offense. That's the thing -- when we discuss these kinds of issues it can offend people. I think that what Waiki wrote was correct but I wouldn't term it in that way. But others aren't happy with the way I describe hunting. So be it.



Quote:
It's one thing to be open-minded about things, I have nothing against that. I think it's very important to try to understand all sides of any issue. But I also don't think things should be sugar-coated at every turn, because this can too easily lead to moral complacency and putting people's feelings on too much of a pedestal. I must insist that there be proportion in life. I choose to be more concerned about a creature's fundamental right to life than the possibility of hurting someone's feelings.



Well, I started this thread so obviously I don't agree with sugar-coating this either. I think the point is to understand the hunter. Most of them have been told from a very early age that hunting is normal. Just as I was told that the pet rabbits and chickens and hamsters and dogs weren't food but the chicken in the freezer was food. I was brainwashed. I could be called many nasty names because up into my twenties I was still eating chicken. How ridiculous does someone have to be to eat chicken but be opposed to killing pet chickens. I was an idiot. But I didn't feel like an idiot and I doubt it would've helped me see the light if someone called me an idiot. But someone needed to say something and that happened and now I'm vegan.



Quote:
And I don't think I, myself, ever called her family sadists. If hunters see meat as necessary, and they see hunting as more humane than buying factory farmed meat, and they hunt from within that mindset, then I would have a hard time labeling them as sadists. But again, the reality of the hunted animal's pain must be dealt with by any mentally sound, responsible adult.



You didn't call them sadists, afaik. I agree with this last paragraph, though.



eta: MLK and Gandhi didn't sugar-coat anything and yet they were able to be effective without villifying their opponents. They were too effective in some people's opinion so they were both shot.
post #55 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

...Well, I started this thread so obviously I don't agree with sugar-coating this either. I think the point is to understand the hunter. Most of them have been told from a very early age that hunting is normal. Just as I was told that the pet rabbits and chickens and hamsters and dogs weren't food but the chicken in the freezer was food. I was brainwashed. I could be called many nasty names because up into my twenties I was still eating chicken. How stupid ridiculous does someone have to be to eat chicken but be opposed to killing pet chickens. I was an idiot. But I didn't feel like an idiot and I doubt it would've helped me see the light if someone called me an idiot. But someone needed to say something and that happened and now I'm vegan.



I consider my younger self as too self-absorbed and thoughtless. It never dawned on me to consider that the deaths of these food animals could merit consideration. I think I viewed farm animals as "lower" without being full aware of it. So I didn't really have any active hatred for animals, yet I was certainly indifferent to them. Perhaps that's how many people are conditioned as they grow up.



Plus, I was implicitly taught that this was just the way things were, somehow necessary. What was there to think about? And I had my own worries to deal with.
post #56 of 91
Like I've always argued, I think the "average omni" buying meat from the store has a less disturbing attitude (although still disturbing) towards animals than an "average hunter" has.



I most certainly was omni before becoming veg*n, but I could never have been a hunter, and there is a reason for that.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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post #57 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Like I've always argued, I think the "average omni" buying meat from the store has a less disturbing attitude (although still disturbing) towards animals than an "average hunter" has.



I most certainly was omni before becoming veg*n, but I could never have been a hunter, and there is a reason for that.



...unless you were brainwashed into believing that hunting is a normal necessary way of life and that consideration of animals is childish and silly.



You were what you were because you were raised that way and taught those values.



Just like Howard Lyman was born into ranching. He was right there in the midst of the suffering and yet he thought is was normal -- until things changed for him.
post #58 of 91
*Runs off to google Howard Lyman*
post #59 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

...unless you were brainwashed into believing that hunting is a normal necessary way of life and that consideration of animals is childish and silly.



You were what you were because you were raised that way and taught those values.



Just like Howard Lyman was born into ranching. He was right there in the midst of the suffering and yet he thought is was normal -- until things changed for him.



Isn't that the guy who changed his whole lifestyle after he was interviewed for an article?
post #60 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

...unless you were brainwashed into believing that hunting is a normal necessary way of life and that consideration of animals is childish and silly.



You were what you were because you were raised that way and taught those values.

Yes, but this doesn't address the similarity or difference between the attitudes taught towards animals.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Reply

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Reply
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