Racism/stereotypes/continued...

I don't think it is possible to differentiate. If the person is thin-skinned, all you can do is just avoid anything that is even borderline.




I guess both, kind of. Any given individual has the right to be offended, the question is then should that right be respected. That is where the community as a whole comes in, and it is up to a given group to determine what they collectively will or will not accept.






in most situations, Skylark's comment would not have been considered offensive. However, when someone is already on edge or upset, it's best to shy away from anything like that, particularly if you don't know them well.






I think most would agree I'm not exactly PC. I don't worry that much about offending others. If someone lets me know I have crossed a line that they at least perceive to exist, I do try to look at it constructively and put myself in their shoes to understand why they are offended. What I don't do is ask people who will most likely share my opinion or understand the other person's situation if I am right or wrong.

As the other thread has been closed for some reason, I would like to continue the discussion here.



IAJ - I responded in the other thread. If you so choose, please move our discussion here using your modly powers.

Tame, I had no idea you were black. Is that you in the avatar?!

Why doesn't anyone believe I am Richard Roundtree - Sandwich Artist!

Skylark closed the other thread for a reason-and while it is an interesting topic, we are are going to give everyone a little time to cool off before restarting this converstation.

The mods have decided to re-open this thread.



I had decided to close my own thread yesterday because I felt the good, important topic of racism and stereotyping should continue, but the thread had become too much about me and my alleged motivations for starting it. Those who wanted to carry on the discussion may do so in this thread or others.

Well, Skylark...you brought up a subject discussing your actions and motivations in a particular instance, and their possibly (or not) racist connotations. I think when you bring up a personal situation and your motivations and actions, people will naturally discuss the situation and your action and motivations. I just looked through the thread and didn't see where it had become anywhere near heated enough to close.



I did think it was an interesting thread. I think the woman felt like you weren't hearing her (which you actually said you were tired of listening). You may or may not have used some sort of body language which she interpreted as neck rolling. Or perhaps she was trying to pick a fight because she felt you weren't listening. In any case, that doesn't seem like the wisest thing to have said. You obviously didn't know the woman well enough to care about what she was talking about. You might have said something more honest to her before the comment, "Sorry I don't have the time to listen right now, I've got a lot of work to do," rather than standing there thinking...good lord how long will she go on with this story. Your body language probably in some sense gave your disinterest away. She definitely overreacted...



I think that is often where problems happen with regard to racist or stereotyping coments. If a person of a minority group thinks you don't really give a crap about them...but then you want to make race related jokes...well hell, that's just annoying. It's kind of like you are trying to join (in this case) the 'black club' by joking. That sounds silly. What I mean is that you aren't willing to do the work of getting to know a person on a real level...but you are willing to make jokes about their ethnicity in order to feel 'friendly' with that person. It's laziness really on the part of whoever does the joking (whatever their race).



Yesterday I was talking to a good friend on the phone, and I mentioned to her that (having just cut my hair) I was covered in white people hair, and what that meant in general was that it was stiff and straight and felt like needles sticking into my skin. We can laugh and joke on a personal, and occasionally racial level because I know her well and we talk daily.



I don't really feel that the problem is PC behavior. I feel the problem is that in general, as I mentioned above, we are still unwilling to do the work of real relationships with people of other races/cultures/religions, but we are willing to make jokes disparaging them...or their history. We won't have honest, peaceful discussions about race, but we make bitter jokes that are in general based on a profound lack of understanding. I am not talking about you here skylark....but more generally speaking about these types of issues.



So I don't think we need to use certain language and jokes until they loose their sting, or whatever was said. I think people need to stop being flip about things they really don't understand. And instead work towards real understanding of others.



On this note, I agree with Tame (ewwwww)



B

i just saw a photo of the two arrested phoenix serial killers, they are both caucasian (judging from their names even of german ancestry, how embarrassing for me ). however, in the media i read the police were looking for a black guy as an alleged witness said the killer was an african american ...

What do you call a black person who flies and airplane?

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A pilot, you racist, f*ck!

bethanie, great post.

Good one!

Yeah great post bethanie.

Jen, I don't think the double standard is okay (meaning it isn't fair). However, I do think it is accepted because of white majority here in the US. To poke fun at the people in power has always (in various countries and governments) been seen as acceptable, where-as to poke fun at the minority contingent has always seemed like poor sportsmanship.



B

I see what you mean, but the problem is, once someone has become offended, justifiably or not, it's hard to get past their defenses and discuss the matter rationally.

I do agree that just because something bothers you or "doesn't sound right" is no reason to fly off the handle.






I agree, and I do think that whites should not brush off the racially insensitive comments either. I work with a lot of kids in basketball, and there is an assumption by some white kids that they cannot be as athletic as black kids, which I find bothersome on a variety of levels. I have heard black coaches make what I think are horribly offensive comments about white players, often in the shape of a compliment.



Bethanie did hit a point regarding the work place, and the histroy of racism does play a part in what is or is not considered okay. I don't think that is a fair justification, but not much I can do about it...yet.






I don't think it is okay, and hopefully as we progress it will disappear.

What I would like is for us to reach the point where the "jokes" really are just jokes, and have no hidden undertone we need to worry about.






Agreed.






Have you guys set up a separate file for me yet?






Let me think on that one.

Thinking of the double standard that was mentioned........Have you ever watched comedy specials, such as chris rock or dave chappell? they always make fun of whites, name calling etc etc......i suspect if a white comedian did the same directed at blacks it would be called racist so why is it different if its directed at whites?

just curious

>>The imbalance doesn't really bother me a lot, but I do wonder how much of it is just my perspective as someone who is white. If there is some truth to the double standard..why is that okay? I'm not asking for a definitive answer, btw. Heh.



I don't think it is okay, and hopefully as we progress it will disappear.

What I would like is for us to reach the point where the "jokes" really are just jokes, and have no hidden undertone we need to worry about.>>



zOMG! I agree with Tame!



I think the double-standard does come from differentials in power. No matter how many times I am called a "cracker", it will never threaten the white system of privilege.



ebola

I posted this in another thread but Chris Rock and Dave Chappell produce comedy for primarily white audiences (Chappell might be 50/50 but Rock's career has always been for white audiences). There are white comedians who play in front of primarily minority audiences and make jokes about those minorities. So making fun of someone behind there back is always bad and doing it to their face, with their consent can be good. You only see whites being made fun of because you only watch comedy produced for white people.

yeah remi i guess you might be on to something, when i think of those comedy specials done by russell simmons.........i cant recall any comedians names but they are not white and the audience is not white and they mostly make fun of blacks.

now that i think of it, i have heard chris rock make fun of blacks too.

I think you meant to write Russell Peters.

No, I believe she means Russell Simmons' "Def Comedy Jam."

Ah, my mistake!

yes thats what i meant , russell simmons and the def comedy jam.

You know, when I watch Steve Harvey, and Cedric The Entertainer and so on, they are always joking about blacks. I admit, it be funny ok. Haha. Because I can see how it was for me growing with my parents and other African American kids. When I hear their jokes, I think to myself, wow, that's exactly how my momma use to be. Hahaha. Or my daddy. Or my grandmother and grandfather. It just brings back memories. So when I hear their jokes, I think for a moment and then I just burst out to laughin' and say to my sister, girl, that is so truth ok. Hahaha. It's too funny.



Harvey and Cedric are 2 of my favorite comedians because they use their past and how they grow up in their work. And it makes me look back and go, wow, I remember. They will even sometimes throw in a story of how they grow up and how their parents raised them, and how they were living on the streets, and I love it because it shows a soft side to them. It shows that they too went through hard times, and i'm sure that many of the people in their audiences have been through hard times also. And it's great when you can look back on the past and laugh.





Monika

weighing in here as agreeing with Tame. No fainting please. Also, Bethanie, your longer post was right on.



I think Dave Chappelle is also making fun of, or highlighting racism, police profiling, etc. much of what i have seen him do seems more complex than making fun of white people.

I wouls say three issues are intertwined with that cartoon:

1.) The gender thing you mentioned.

2.) The slavery issue. We are still a tad sensitive about being represented in chains.

3.) That it is cartoon, and the age of its target audience.



I see MTV's point about how it is a parody of Snoop's behavior, but I don't think its target audience is going to get that message. And Snoop is criticized for a lot of what he does, so he doesn't get a free pass.



The black vs. white comedian thing is interesting. I agree with Remi, although I think black comedians are a little freer to make fun of whites than the other way around, but I believe that is more because of white comedians are more hesitant to do so in fear of accidentally going too far. In addition, I don't think white comedians are in a position to make observations on black culture in the same way we can about white.



If you will notice, Latino comedians take shots against everybody, because again, they are in position to give a perspective on the dominant culture, and a parallel minority culture.