The honey + beeswax debate - use it or not - Page 3

It isn't rigid for a vegan not to use animal products at all, as much as is possible. It is regular vegan, it is what vegan is. I don't care if it is eating the honey, wearing it, or throwing it at Kim Kardashion, it isn't vegan.

Here are some environmental reasons for avoiding honey. This is an excerpt from a good article; I recommend the whole thing.

http://www.vegetus.org/honey/ecology.htm
...
"When beekeepers tell you they are helping the honeybees out by transporting them to nectar flows, they are indeed. They are facilitating the honey hoarding instinct of the honeybees--much to the detriment of other pollinators (Buchmann 129). "The potential ecological effects of honeybees are likely minor compared to major changes such as deforestation, but they may be important because honeybees are nearly cosmopolitan and they may compete with pollinators, potential 'keystone' species (Paine, 1966; Thorp & Gordon, 1992; Thorp et al., 1994)" (Sugden 156). As the name implies, keystone species are ones that the ecosystem probably cannot do without. Studies led by William Schaffer, a University of Arizona ecologist, clearly showed a significant negative impact on local pollinators when honeybee colonies were introduced (Buchmann & Nabham 173). There is ample evidence for the fact that honeybees crowd out not only other bee pollinators, but also birds, honey possums and other insects (Buchmann & Nabham 174-182; Buchmann 129; Sugden 154; Kato et al.). The interspecies competition is difficult to conclusively prove for a variety of reasons. However, of 24 major competition studies only two discounted competitive effects and even these authors did not dismiss the possibility of its existence (Buchmann 129).

Honeybees steal pollen and nectar from other pollinators, but honeybees are not necessarily the best pollinators in natural ecosystems. Bees wet the pollen with saliva making it less likely to be transferred to a plant. They also travel to many different types of plants so the pollen doesn't necessarily get to the right plant (Buchmann & Nabham 62).

Loss of the native pollinators would be bad because honeybees only pollinate 16-22% of all wild plants needing pollination (Roubik 169). In addition to the threat from the honeybees, native pollinators are in decline due to habitat destruction and fragmentation, chemical farming, monocropping and insecticides, all of which only exacerbate the competition with honeybees (Sugden 156).

Buchmann & Nabham conclude, "the honeybee has perhaps had as much impact as cattle on the structure of certain plant communities. It may be apocalyptic to claim that someday beekeeping with either European or Africanized honeybees will be discussed in the United States or Mexico with as much emotion as cowboying is today, but that is indeed our prophecy. [It is already true in Australia.] Honeybees are, after all, lilliputian livestock--fuzzy herbivores with wings--that are just as capable of taming a landscape as any cow, sheep, or goat infestation. Their 'grazing' on pollen and nectar simply goes unnoticed. They may buzz softly, but they pack a big ecological wallop when it comes to altering, perhaps forever, the potential mix of forages out there on the range, in the bush, in the outback or boonies (Buchmann & Nabham 182-3).

Haha. +1.

It's funny how we separate insects from other animals. As if their size or (some people think) creepy appearance makes them any less of an animal.

 

I used to be creeped out by insects. Dung flies were the ugliest things ever, in my mind. Then, I got an indoor worm bin. Oooh I made the mistake of not scrubbing my citrus before putting it in. And, lo and behold, a swarm of dung flies were born! Ew they were EVERYWHERE. I hated them and made every effort to shoo them out the windows. But they were many and I was a slow slow insect catcher. Slowly, I accepted that they would just leave on their own accord. Instead of trying to bat them away when they landed close, I chose to just observe them quietly. I slowly realized that they aren't ugly; they are animals and if you look at them with compassion, they are actually cute! Those "dung" flies weren't dirty, disease carriers as I had previously thought. They came out of my worm bin full of lovely organic vegetable waste.  I came to think of them as my little fly babies. I know it sounds kooky, but my attitude about them completely changed.

 

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. No, I don't consume bee products. Bees are animals too. They are harmed by bee farming and some are killed in the process of extracting honey. Just because most people can empathize with them, doesn't mean we shouldn't try. :-) Plus, they are cute. :-)

Yay! :-) There is beauty in all of nature :-)

Coconut sugar has absolutely no coconut flavor. It's not made from the nut - it's sap from the flowers. They're tapped just like maple trees. The sugar has an incredible caramel-vanilla flavor.

I've found Florida Crystals at Fred Meyer ( you have them down there don't you? It was with the rest of the sugars.) Now that I've discovered coconut sugar, though - I may never buy regular sugar again.

What makes you think the distinction is based on size? I attempt to make my decisions based on the complexity of the organism's brain, although this is simply an estimate for lack of better measures. A bee brain is significantly less complex that a chicken, cow, fish or human brain.

Those who draw the line at "animal" usually fail to take into account that many insects and other invertebrates are killed by the way we live every day. Why are bee so special that we are so concerned about stealing their food, while we kill flies and nematodes with abandon?

VeggieRunner:

The size thing is kinda related to "complexity", not an assumption. But in addressing that, so you believe they are less complex. Fish are less complex (apparently,) than dogs. Where do we draw the line? I draw the line at ANIMAL, I do not exclude insects just like most vegans I know.

 

I don't kill flies on purpose. Unless it is harming me, I avoid harming it. 

But back to talking about bees.I'd rather not exploit them.

I have similar thoughts about mollusks. I'd rather not harm them. So I behave in a way that reasonably avoids harming them.

 

**Editted to be not so repetitive! lol That's what I get for posting in the middle of the night while my computer is on the verge of freezing!**

 

If we kill one kind of insect by inadvertently stepping on them on the sidewalk, should we kill others just because? I think not.

 

Yes, our other actions (buying computers an gadgets for example) can indirectly affect animals/environment, etc. I think as compassionate human beings, we should strive to continuously improve. Would you agree with that?

Edited by vMaryv - 8/3/12 at 8:13am

+1

What about the microscopic copepods that are killed for your drinking water every day? No one ever gets up in arms for these animals. http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/08/31/drink-up-nyc-meet-the-tiny-crustaceans-not-kosher-in-your-tap-water/

And what about mosquitos - no doubt you kill them if they are biting you. If you think they are sentient, don't you think you should find nonlethal means? After all, if a cow were biting you only hard enough to leave small itchy welts and could be swatted and killed as easily as a mosquito, you wouldn't kill the cow if you could help it because it is sentient (I hope).

I'm not so sure that a fish's brain is really significantly less complex than a dog's brain. Do you have a reference for that claim? Dogs are special in that they have been bred to have a special connection to humans, thus they are more likely to have behaviors that meet our definition of sentience regardless of their overall brain complexity.

I would say octopuses have sufficient complexity that I would be worried about their potential for suffering, but not insects as far as I have read. It is more of a threshold, and also a matter of consistency. It doesn't make sense to me to be all worked up over "exploiting" one type of insect, when I kill hundreds of others daily just by riding in a vehicle or walking on the sidewalk. I also know plenty of vegans who will kill insect pests in their gardens who are not directly harmful to themselves.

I have improved myself sufficiently as far as what I eat and the products I use. Thanks for asking.

 

I haven't been a vegan long, so maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that veganism was an ethical choice based on not harming/exploiting animals where possible.

 

Insect or otherwise, killing something that will cause no harm to you, doesn't seem like a very vegan thing to do to me?

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Edited by Beetlejuice - 11/2/12 at 5:04am

Vegans avoid all insect products, not just bee products. I don't do gardening so controlling garden insects isn't an issue for me. I do try and avoid killing insects and even with mosquitoes I capture them and release them outside. Obviously insects are killed in food production but that is unavoidable unless vegans want to starve themselves!

I feel that you are countering with straw man attacks. Whether that is just to be combative, defensive, or just to keep the debate going, I feel that my efforts are better spent elsewhere.

 

For the record though, I instinctively slap mosquitoes if they are in the process of biting me. But otherwise I use repellent to kinda "hide" from them so I don't get bit! Swatting them while they are kinda buzzing around it the worst thing to do if you don't want to be bit! You just alert them to exactly where you are!

 

I hope you really are in it for ethical and compassionate reasons. I became more compassionate as I opened my mind to the possibility of perspectives very unlike my own. I'm sending you loving thoughts :-)

Thanks, but you can save your warm fuzzies for someone else. No need to try to convert me - barring actual scientific arguments for insect sentience, my mind is made up. I am already an ethical and compassionate person. I don't eat meat, dairy, eggs or use other non-insect animal products for ethical reasons. If you mean to imply that I am not compassionate because I disagree on this issue, your mind is not very open at all.
Edited by RunnerVeggie - 8/3/12 at 8:49am

No need to take a cold stance :( Everyone likes warm fuzzies. We are all trying to live more compassionate lifestyles and we should be happy to be around like minded people here.

Edited by 4everaspirit - 8/3/12 at 9:46am

You'll find that many vegans don't kill flies or nematoes on purpose. We can't help if accidentally kill them, but we can choose not to consciously kill them. (I made this very clear to a friend last night.) Every animal is special in their own way, no matter how big or small.
.

I'm not agreeing that all vegans eat processed foods you speak of, but are you suggesting that those deaths involved in, say, peanut butter are intentional, such as taking a bee's honey?

This is no longer a vegan board at all, I guess.

right.  lol  smh

I choose not to use those (Bee) products. YMMV.

I don't eat honey or use other bee products. I refer to vegans who use bee products as "beegans." I don't feel that the bee issues (or any insect issues) are nearly as important as the issues related to mammals, birds, fishes... as I stated in the other thread about animal testing and eggs:

 

Millions more chickens SUFFER TO DEATH in the food industry than ALL other animals killed for fur, experimentation, or in "shelters" COMBINED. That's just counting chickens and only those who die before even making it to slaughter. Source: http://www.countinganimals.com/is-vegan-outreach-right-about-how-many-animals-suffer-to-death/
Imagine the scope of the problem when you add in the other species in the food industry and when you start counting the animals who are slaughtered. The level of suffering and death in animal "agriculture" is ENORMOUS! No other form of animal cruelty even remotely compares. None.

 

Therefor I don't really care if someone is vegan vs. beegan. Too often, the "debate" about honey becomes a side-issue that makes it easy for omnis to discount veganism. I wrote a bit about that here: http://www.vegansoapbox.com/why-vegans-avoid-honey/

 

But I will admit that it does bother me when someone - who should know better - makes something with honey and labels that food "vegan." That annoys me.

Honey can sometimes be an issue because it's in so many products that would otherwise be vegan if honey weren't added. Like Trader Joe's cheeseless pizza, Amy's vegetarian meatloaf dinner, lots of cereal and granola, Lush products (although they always say they take good care of their bees o.o;;)
And please don't tell me I'm the only one who does not like Stevia lol. Agave is fine, but I'd rather have a mixture of agave and maple syrup.

Edited by Pirate Huntress - 8/5/12 at 5:20pm

I don't like stevia either. It tastes really similar to aspartame to me to be honest. I mean at least it's not creepy like aspartame but it tastes gross to me.