Activists lying about their religion - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegan cyberpunk 

Lying sucks, period.

You wanna people to listen to you, be truthful with them, it's easy to see when someone lies, and then they won't listen to you.

I like this answer. They should have dodged the question on faith and moved the discussion back to AW.

I think the question of whether or not what they did is ethical should be completely divorced from the question of whether it helps or hurts advocacy.

This question reminds me both how similar and how different the US and the UK are.

On the one hand my guess is that both nations have a high ratio of veggies compared to most other nations worldwide, and yet on the other hand the US is strongly Christian religious, while the UK is predominantly atheist or agnostic.

From an English/British perspective, I'd say it'd be exceedingly unhelpful to use religion as a route into discussing animal welfare/vegetarianism.

Either way, no I wouldn't consider lying about religious affiliation if I thought it might attract another's ear, as to be honest I'm unsympathetic to the position maintained by the major monotheistic religions regarding compassion to human beings as much as their position regarding compassion to animals.

I wonder how real Christian animal activists feel about people claiming to be Christian in their animal advocacy when they're not.

I wonder how real Christian activists feel about the bible telling them they have dominion over animals.

Read Dominion by Matthew Scully. Scully is a Catholic, pro-life, conservative and a former speechwriter for the Bush administration. Here's some comments from reader reviews on Amazon:

"For many, many years I alternated between living as a conflicted meat eater and as an occasionally lapsing vegetarian. Then I read this book and a true vegetarian was born."

"The world would be a much better and merciful place if more people read this book. Scully writes extremely effectively and structures his arguments in a very accessible way. You wouldn't need to already be drinking the Kool Aid (all 0.5% of us) in order to connect with this book."

"Scully upholds a faith-based, clear-sighted view of kindness that, even as an atheist, I very much appreciate."

And in case you're thinking that regardless of his resume Scully couldn't possibly be coming from "that" point of view":

"This book is a Christian fascist owned propaganda."

Also, it should be noted the first (or at least first really significant) book-length deontological argument for AR was explicitly based on CHRISTIAN understanding of rights. Andrew Linzey (the author) is an Anglican minister and belonged to the discussion group at Oxford that pretty much gave birth to the modern AR movement.

Here's a link to one contemporary "Bible diet": http://www.planetpace.com/

This particular variant optionally includes meat (some schemes do not, I just picked the first link google suggested). The recipe link is vegan recipes, and there is a link to the MFA "Meet Your Meat" video with a caption "Does God Approve of THIS?" (the answer being no He does not), helpfully located on the page about optional meat.

Definitely not mainstream, but interesting.

I don't care for religion personally. I think it is a delusion and I do not think it is appropriate behaviour to go around asking people which delusion do you subscribe to if any given that many people take such delusions seriously. They have no business asking such a question and if the activists (or anyone else) think it would benefit them to lie I do not think it is wrong for them to lie.

I am curious though. Suppose someone asked the AR activist "do you believe in absolute space or in relative space?" and the activist answered relative space despite being a hardcore absolutist. Or to give another example suppose the activist is asked "are you a rationalist or an empiricist?" and the activist answers empiricist despite being a rationalist. Do you think that would be as wrong as lying about religion? If not why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene 

Two AR activists recently told me that when they are promoting veganism, and they are asked about their religion, they tell people that they are Christians, even though in reality they are atheists. I was absolutely horrified that they thought that this constituted acceptable behavior. I believe this is absolutely reprehensible, and I made my view on this very clear to them.

What are your thoughts?

But if someone identified as strongly with relative space or rationalism (which I think are far more important questions) as people tend to do with religion we would think they are idiots and would not care about lying to them. Why should we as atheists feel any different about religion? As Dawkins makes the point clearly in The God Delusion even non religious people put religion on a pedestal and we should not do that.

And I don't think asking about religion in such a circumstance is an innocent question. They are very likely to draw unwarranted conclusions from it and judge the AR philosophy based purely on that.

I suppose I speak very harshly of religion but someone has to :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LedBoots 


I think that lying about religion may be more reprehensible because when people care about and identify with religion, it becomes a part of their identity. I'm more upset when someone lies to me about being vegetarian than if they lie to me about their favorite color because I'm more invested in AR than I am in the color green.

I find it ironic that Eugene's friends were dishonest because they didn't want to offend the Christians, and Eugene is conversely honest because he also doesn't want to offend the Christians, and meanwhile, I am Christian, and I don't give a damn about offending the other Christians.  I mean, they tell me I'm not really saved because I'm not in the same denomination as them, and I just say, "You could not be more wrong."

Also, since you made comparison to veg*ns, we have this same problem, too, deliberate dishonesty aside.  Different interpretations is what that * is all about, after all.  I know you've argued that we shouldn't conceal concern for animal rights as a motive for veg*n advocacy, but a lot of people have emphasized health & environment anyway, and now there are a number of converts to plant-based diet out there who still support animal experiments and stuff.  I've argued with several of those about whether they should call themselves vegans.  But how can I get angry about that and yet stay friends with normal vegetarians?  Right on these boards, it's a fairly common occurrence for someone to start a thread with "I have ___ situation, does that count as vegetarian?"  And some member usually says, "Don't worry so much about labels, just do the right thing as best as you're able."  So, yeah, this example is obviously bad --

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene 

... they really eat meat three times a day, and they told you they were vegan just because they thought it would help persuade you in supporting their cause. ...

-- but at the other extreme, I would say you're still vegan even if you can't yet find grain certified to have been harvested with no harm to any insect.

I'm just saying that even what you are supposed to believe, exactly, is not so black-and-white of a question in the big picture.  Who decides?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clueless Git 


I think these guys, when asked, should say something like;

"Vegetarianism is about compassion towards others. Would you not agree that compassion towards others is a very Christian thing?"
 

I was a vegetarian - now I'm vegan and I'm also a Christian. I think Clueless Git's response is much better than lying. I can kind of understand why people would lie - not wanting to turn the conversation into a religious debate - but if the person lying doesn't know the Bible and can't converse about what the Bible says about eating meat, I think it will backfire. I used to get a lot of crap, but I can walk people through the scriptures and point out how they are wrong to oppose veg*anism. Although I haven't been successful in changing anyone's eating habits, I have been 100% successful in changing attitudes and prejudice. I rarely find veg*an prejudice anymore - even among the most conservative Christians.