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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-18-2016 02:58 PM
Ahimsa101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
Yeah. I'm not gonna get in an argument with him though since he's not my trainer. I'll just keep drinking my goat's milk and eating cage-free eggs(just to be on the safe side). Other than that I'm vegan though. And I do care very much about those poor animals on the meat industry factory farms. Thanks a lot everyone for all the great information on this thread.

Far be it from me to be critical of this, because I'm not even strictly vegan. I occasionally eat cheese when out somewhere on social occasions, and once or twice a year, when traveling with my omni wife, I'll go out for breakfast and have scrambled eggs. However, there really, really is no need to consume goat's milk or eggs, cage-free or otherwise, for health reasons "to be on the safe side." The human digestive tract doesn't even distinguish between "plant" and "animal" protein. It's just amino acids.

Also, regarding Jamie's post regarding complete proteins, which have the proper amino acid ratios, being supposedly rare among plant foods, please note that that's not quite right. Look up "complete protein" on Wikipedia and you'll notice that potatoes, black-eyed peas, soybeans, black beans, quinoa, cashews, and chickpeas, among other things, are all plant foods that are complete proteins. The article footnotes contains sources.

So again, if you want to consume goat's milk and eggs for taste or convenience, then by all means do so. But with all due respect, please realize that there is no biological or nutritional reason to do so. In fact, if anything, vegans probably have a longer life expectancy than those who consume animal products, with the possible exception of pescatarians whose life expectancy seems to equal or exceed that of vegans, according to some studies.

Thank you for this response, and especially for the list of plant foods that are complete proteins. I've also read that walnuts are important in a vegan diet because they're a good source of omega-3 essential fatty acids.
11-17-2016 04:03 PM
Dilettante Yeah. I'm not gonna get in an argument with him though since he's not my trainer. I'll just keep drinking my goat's milk and eating cage-free eggs(just to be on the safe side). Other than that I'm vegan though. And I do care very much about those poor animals on the meat industry factory farms. Thanks a lot everyone for all the great information on this thread.

Far be it from me to be critical of this, because I'm not even strictly vegan. I occasionally eat cheese when out somewhere on social occasions, and once or twice a year, when traveling with my omni wife, I'll go out for breakfast and have scrambled eggs. However, there really, really is no need to consume goat's milk or eggs, cage-free or otherwise, for health reasons "to be on the safe side." The human digestive tract doesn't even distinguish between "plant" and "animal" protein. It's just amino acids.

Also, regarding Jamie's post regarding complete proteins, which have the proper amino acid ratios, being supposedly rare among plant foods, please note that that's not quite right. Look up "complete protein" on Wikipedia and you'll notice that potatoes, black-eyed peas, soybeans, black beans, quinoa, cashews, and chickpeas, among other things, are all plant foods that are complete proteins. The article footnotes contains sources.

So again, if you want to consume goat's milk and eggs for taste or convenience, then by all means do so. But with all due respect, please realize that there is no biological or nutritional reason to do so. In fact, if anything, vegans probably have a longer life expectancy than those who consume animal products, with the possible exception of pescatarians whose life expectancy seems to equal or exceed that of vegans, according to some studies.
11-17-2016 04:00 PM
silva
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahimsa101 View Post
Yeah. I'm not gonna get in an argument with him though since he's not my trainer. I'll just keep drinking my goat's milk and eating cage-free eggs(just to be on the safe side). Other than that I'm vegan though. And I do care very much about those poor animals on the meat industry factory farms. Thanks a lot everyone for all the great information on this thread.
There is no good reason to eat dairy or eggs! Regardless of ethics!

Other than not being vegan you're vegan?

If you choose to eat dairy and eggs don't make excuses
11-17-2016 02:41 PM
Ahimsa101 Yeah. I'm not gonna get in an argument with him though since he's not my trainer. I'll just keep drinking my goat's milk and eating cage-free eggs(just to be on the safe side). Other than that I'm vegan though. And I do care very much about those poor animals on the meat industry factory farms. Thanks a lot everyone for all the great information on this thread.
11-15-2016 06:31 PM
David3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahimsa101 View Post
I apologize for the double post but I have more information. The trainer admitted that you probably can get all you need from a vegan diet. But that it can be tricky, and the safer and easier way is simply to get some animal protein in there(goat's milk as an example). He said that cow's milk is not ideal in that it's difficult for us to digest.

The trainer's first claim - that animal protein was essential - has been shown to be false. Numerous reputable health and fitness organizations have stated that animal protein is unnecessary.


Therefore, I think it's probably risky to accept this trainer's claims at face value. I would ask him to present evidence, from reputable organizations, to support his claims. I'm sure that this trainer is well-intentioned, and in good physical condition, but his nutrition education appears lacking.
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11-15-2016 01:47 PM
Ahimsa101 I apologize for the double post but I have more information. The trainer admitted that you probably can get all you need from a vegan diet. But that it can be tricky, and the safer and easier way is simply to get some animal protein in there(goat's milk as an example). He said that cow's milk is not ideal in that it's difficult for us to digest.
11-08-2016 09:25 PM
Ahimsa101 Thanks again everyone. That list of vegan athletes is impressive. At this point I'm definitely thinking my dad's trainer might be wrong, but I should know more after this weekend.
11-08-2016 04:20 PM
Tomatillo Welcome to Veggie Boards!

w ww.playbuzz.com/beansproutiguss10/what-vegetable-are-you
11-08-2016 04:14 PM
Jamie in Chile I agree with Dilettante, Vegetable protein is fine.

Animal protein is more complete in that it has all the amino acids in balanced amounts. With the possible exception of soy and a few other plant foods, most plant foods do not contain high quantities of all amino acids in a single plant food. However, as long as you eat at least some with lysine (soy, lentils, beans etc) and an otherwise balanced diet you will be fine.

It's even possible you could completely ignore the protein issue entirely, and be fine, however this isn't known for certain.
11-08-2016 03:22 PM
jessandreia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahimsa101 View Post
Wow, really good information here! Thanks so much everyone.

I'm going to my parent's house this weekend so I will ask my dad exactly what the trainer said then. Based on all this information, I'm thinking it could be that his well meaning trainer was wrong.
You might think that the fitness trainer not being in a profession related to the meat or dairy industry makes him have an unbiased opinion, however just the fact that this guy eats meat and probably wants to continue eating it already makes him biased.
The "best" argument, and I'm putting it in quotes because it's not true, to keep eating meat is that it's necessary for health. Otherwise, if it's not necessary, you're just admitting that you're eating animal products for selfish reasons. No one likes to admit they are selfish.
11-08-2016 02:59 PM
silva http://www.greatveganathletes.com/

Is your dad's trainer as fit as these vegan athletes?
I don't think Kendrick Farris, the team USA's only male weightlifter is in this list.
11-08-2016 02:23 PM
Ahimsa101 Wow, really good information here! Thanks so much everyone.

I'm going to my parent's house this weekend so I will ask my dad exactly what the trainer said then. Based on all this information, I'm thinking it could be that his well meaning trainer was wrong.
11-08-2016 12:13 PM
David3 Please consider these additional statements, from reputable health organizations, regarding protein:


The American Heart Association makes this statement:

"You don't need to eat foods from animals to have enough protein in your diet. Plant proteins alone can provide enough of the essential and non-essential amino acids, as long as sources of dietary protein are varied and caloric intake is high enough to meet energy needs.
Whole grains, legumes, vegetables, seeds and nuts all contain both essential and non-essential amino acids."

Link: http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Health...p#.WCIxtWffPX4

*****************************

The American Council on Exercise (the most prominent accreditation organization for personal trainers) makes the following statement about vegan diets and protein:

"According to the Institute of Medicine, the protein needs of vegetarian athletes are no different than that of an omnivore, provided they consume a varied diet that includes complementary proteins. Because most plant-based foods are incomplete proteins (they are missing one essential amino acid), it is recommended that vegetarians consume a blend of protein-rich foods during the course of the day to provide all the essential amino acids. Some researchers and professional groups put the protein needs of vegetarian and vegan athletes higher due to the digestibility of plant-based proteins. Vegan athletes, whose primary sources of protein are nuts, seeds, soy and legumes, should aim for an additional 12 grams of protein each day."

Link: https://www.acefitness.org/blog/5297...-actually-need


So, although the American Council on Exercise recommends that vegans consume slightly more protein, they do not state that animal protein is necessary.
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11-08-2016 02:37 AM
Naturebound This might be considered "anecdotal evidence", but you can't ignore the fact that many people have thrived for decades as vegans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Watson (founder of the Vegan Society and was vegan for over 50 years until his death at the age of 95)

http://thevegantruth.blogspot.com/20...egans-our.html
11-07-2016 09:38 PM
jessandreia @David3 I was waiting for your reply with sources, haha.
11-07-2016 07:38 PM
David3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahimsa101 View Post
My dad is very overweight, so he goes to a personal trainer three times a week. I guess while he was there he got to talking about me being vegan and the trainer told him that specifically animal protein IS necessary. And I'm pretty sure this guy doesn't work for the dairy industry or anything, so he is unbiased. And then I'm not sure where the suggestion about goat's milk came from, but the cage-free eggs was my own idea.

Anyway thanks again everyone for your replies.

Personal trainers often have some understanding of nutrition, but they have their own muscleman-type biases in favor of animal protein.

Also, one can legally work as a personal trainer without any certification whatsoever: http://study.com/training_requiremen...l_trainer.html . I'm not trying to malign the physical training profession, but I am saying that their nutrition education and claims may not be accurate.


Conservative, mainstream, reputable health organizations state that properly-planned vegan diets are healthy:


The American Diabetes Association makes this statement regarding vegan diets:

“A vegetarian diet is a healthy option, even if you have diabetes. Research supports that following this type of diet can help prevent and manage diabetes. In fact, research on vegan diets has found that carbohydrate and calorie restrictions were not necessary and still promoted weight loss and lowered participants' A1C.”
Link to this statement: http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/planning-meals/meal-planning-for-vegetarians/

******************

The United States Department of Agriculture provides nutrition information for vegans: https://www.choosemyplate.gov/tips-vegetarians

******************

The British National Health Service makes this statement regarding vegan diets:

"With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs."
Link: http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetaria...egandiets.aspx

******************

The American Dietetic Association (the world's largest association of Registered Dietitians and other nutrition professionals) makes the following statement regarding vegan diets:

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
Link: http://www.eatrightpro.org/resource/...getarian-diets

*****************

The very conservative Mayo Clinic has advised physicians and other healthcare professionals to educate their vegan patients about the importance of protein, vitamin B-12, iron, ferritin, calcium, omega-3 fatty acids, and vitamin D (see link below). However, the article nevertheless clarifies that "Vegans have not been shown to be deficient in protein intake or in any specific amino acids."
So, while vegans must be aware of the aforementioned vitamins and minerals (and we discuss these nutrients in this forum), a properly-planned vegan diet contains all necessary proteins.
http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/di...study-reports/

*****************

These organizations are about as conservative as you can get, yet they all acknowledge that properly-planned vegan diets contain enough protein.


Lastly, although personal anecdotes are poor evidence, I can tell you that I've been vegan for 25 years, and I'm still alive and healthy! No physician has ever advised me to stop being vegan.
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11-07-2016 07:19 PM
Dilettante Ahimsa101, with all due respect, a random personal trainer who talked to your father in a gym isn't exactly a reliable source, especially since most people in society have bought into the meat/dairy industry propaganda even if only unconsciously. In fact, there are millions of long-term vegans who suffer no ill health effects and have a life expectancy which is at least as long as, and according to some studies longer than, that of standard omnivores. (By the way, I'm not quite one of them. I'm a vegetarian who eats vegan almost all of the time.)

In any event, it wouldn't make sense for the human body to need "animal protein," because what we call protein is really just a bunch of individual amino acids (lysine, methionine, etc.). The digestion process inside the digestive tract is simply a chemical process through which these amino acids are absorbed through the esophogul lining. It doesn't matter whether those amino acids, like lysine, etc., came from, say, a steak, goat's milk, or a soybean. It's simply lysine, methionine, etc., as far as the body is concerned.

I believe there are actually some differences in how rapidly the various proteins absorb into the body, with certain animal proteins, particularly whey, absorbing faster than most plant proteins. This, however, is mainly of interest to hardcore bodybuilders and high performance athletes who may need fast protein absorption when on an intense training schedule. However, that shouldn't matter to most people, because it doesn't affect whether the protein gets absorbed, just how fast the absorption takes place. Moreover, pea protein apparently absorbs rapidly and is at least as good as whey when it comes to building muscle (there is plenty out there on this through google). In any case, unless you're a hardcore power lifter, pro athlete, or the like, I can't see that protein absorption rate would matter.

Please note that I'm not arguing that you should go vegan. There are certainly reasons that you might want to continue drinking goat's milk (taste, convenience, etc.). I pass no judgment one way or the other on whether those other factors outweigh, or don't outweigh, any ethical concerns with regard to goats for milk. I'm simply saying that a perceived need to ingest "animal protein" is simply that--perceived--not a real need.
11-07-2016 06:55 PM
Ahimsa101
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessandreia View Post
I am curious as to what sources your dad got his information from.
My dad is very overweight, so he goes to a personal trainer three times a week. I guess while he was there he got to talking about me being vegan and the trainer told him that specifically animal protein IS necessary. And I'm pretty sure this guy doesn't work for the dairy industry or anything, so he is unbiased. And then I'm not sure where the suggestion about goat's milk came from, but the cage-free eggs was my own idea.

Anyway thanks again everyone for your replies.
11-07-2016 09:13 AM
Nitesh Hi Everyone,

I am pure vegetarian not only me my whole family is vegetarian
I love veg food.
11-07-2016 01:30 AM
jessandreia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahimsa101 View Post
Thanks for the warm welcome everyone. And David, thank you for the link. I glanced over it quickly but will have to take a closer look when I can. Certainly if I can be convinced from unbiased sources(HARD to find these days as we're seeing with this election!) that a vegan diet would not compromise my health in any way - won't be missing anything important, then I will seriously consider going back to that.
I am curious as to what sources your dad got his information from.
11-07-2016 12:04 AM
H_SPrincess Welcome!
I'm actually new here but I already feel at home
11-06-2016 08:56 PM
Ahimsa101 Thanks for the warm welcome everyone. And David, thank you for the link. I glanced over it quickly but will have to take a closer look when I can. Certainly if I can be convinced from unbiased sources(HARD to find these days as we're seeing with this election!) that a vegan diet would not compromise my health in any way - won't be missing anything important, then I will seriously consider going back to that.
11-06-2016 06:04 PM
Naturebound Hi Ahimsa101!
11-06-2016 03:36 PM
David3 Welcome Ahimsa!

You sound conscientious and healthy! This forum is for all vegetarians: lacto, ovo/lacto, and vegan!

If you become more interested in pure veganism over time, I think we can convince you that animal protein is completely unnecessary. Even Kaiser Permanente (one of the largest health insurance companies in the United States) recommends a completely vegan plant-based diet: https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/w...et-booklet.pdf
11-06-2016 02:26 PM
Ahimsa101
Hello everyone

Hi,

I'm not actually new here but I haven't posted in several years. I used to be vegan but my dad convinced me that the protein from animals is different(and necessary). So now I drink goat's milk(I've heard they aren't treated as bad as cows), and I eat cage-free eggs. That's it though, other than those two exceptions I'm still vegan.

Anyway just stopping back by to say hi and hope to join in some discussions again soon.

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