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  Topic Review (Newest First)
01-21-2006 08:17 AM
snownose Thanks for the article, Ludi. I always thought free range was better than regular store brands. I guess I should get my own chickens and a cow and put them in my backyard and produce free range products
01-21-2006 07:47 AM
Ludi Horizon has had some controversy about the care of their animals. I'll see if I can find some info.



Here's an article:



http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html
01-21-2006 07:45 AM
Ludi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebutterfly05 View Post

So why is it that vegan convenience foods are so expensive and I hear from every one (inluding animal rights groups and VegNews) that the prices will go down the more people buy them?





Because they are a niche market. A small customer base with high demand in that customer base.
01-21-2006 07:21 AM
YoungBuck Just remember free range is more a marketing tool than fact. All free range means is the animal has access to the outside some part of the day. Five minutes would be considered free range.
01-21-2006 06:23 AM
penny79
Quote:
Originally Posted by snownose View Post

If you can't find any other locally produced milk, you could see if any supermarkets near you stock Horizon organic. On the side of the box it says that the cows are given pastures etc. I guess it's the best supermarket brand.



that sounds like those cheese commerciials where all of the cows are soooo happy that humans take their milk.





----------------------------------

obviously you dont have to answer my questions but why NOT plant based milks? your huband wouldnt be giving anything up. almond milk tastes sooo much better than cow, soy, and rice milk in my opinion. if anything, you will benefit from lower cost (instead of driving elsewhere many times), you can stock up no problem, better flavor, it's actually healthy for you, and peace of mind in knowing that its animal-friendly.
01-20-2006 08:24 PM
cgarrettfmly We have planned on making trips out to Fresno for supplies! So that's always an option. Plus my husband is from monterey, so we go there often too. Milk isn't really something you can stock up on, though, because it goes bad so quickly. Oh well, I guess we'll figure it out. We can CERTAINLY stop by some of the dairies that are local and see what they're all about.
01-20-2006 08:05 PM
froggythefrog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher View Post

This in NO WAY can compare to the same level but as an infertile woman who has lost a baby, I can empathize with the mother cows who's babies get stolen from them.



People often don't understand the impact it can have, but a miscarriage is still the loss of a baby.
01-20-2006 08:01 PM
Birdwatcher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebutterfly05 View Post

You're right. There may be less physical pain in certain cases, but in every case in the dairy industry, the emotional pain of having your baby taken from you is still there, and that may be the worst pain of all.



This in NO WAY can compare to the same level but as an infertile woman who has lost a baby, I can empathize with the mother cows who's babies get stolen from them.
01-20-2006 07:58 PM
froggythefrog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebutterfly05 View Post

So why is it that vegan convenience foods are so expensive and I hear from every one (inluding animal rights groups and VegNews) that the prices will go down the more people buy them?





It's to get them out of the niche market and into the common market. I doubt the prices would go down tremedously. However a liter of soymilk is comparable in price to a gallon of milk in most places now.
01-20-2006 07:56 PM
froggythefrog
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgarrettfmly View Post

Now lets not get snarky. Like I said my husband is omni. I was just wondering if there were other options out there. While I can convince my husband to eat veggie at home, I KNOW that asking him to give up milk and cheese would..... not go over well in the least. He is tolerant and supportive of me, and I have seen him become more discriminating in his choices, but I sincerely doubt he will EVER go the whole route.





Is there a farm close to you where you can ask firsthand what they do with baby male calves, etc.? This would be your best bet.
01-20-2006 07:34 PM
Bluebutterfly05
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludi View Post

Generally, high demand causes prices to be higher. A low demand product is generally sold at a lower price. A rare product (niche market) is generally sold at a higher price.

So why is it that vegan convenience foods are so expensive and I hear from every one (inluding animal rights groups and VegNews) that the prices will go down the more people buy them?
01-20-2006 07:32 PM
Amy SF to cgarrettfmly:



I double checked the location of Coalinga on the California map, and you'll be roughly between Fresno and Monterey. If you're up to an occasional road trip, you might consider driving out to Monterey, where they have a Whole Foods, or east to Fresno, where they have a Whole Foods AND a Trader Joe's, and stock up on certain items.
01-20-2006 07:07 PM
snownose If you can't find any other locally produced milk, you could see if any supermarkets near you stock Horizon organic. On the side of the box it says that the cows are given pastures etc. I guess it's the best supermarket brand.
01-20-2006 06:53 PM
Ludi Generally, high demand causes prices to be higher. A low demand product is generally sold at a lower price. A rare product (niche market) is generally sold at a higher price.
01-20-2006 06:44 PM
Bluebutterfly05
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludi View Post

I remember seeing a program about a sheep's milk dairy in which the lambs stayed with the ewes except during milking, so there was no separation until natural weaning. I don't know how the economics of this worked, perhaps because they were able to get two valuable products from the animals (milk and wool), it was possible.

That's probably possible because the demand for sheep's milk would be lower. The demand's so high right now, that it's probably not "profittable" to do that with a cow.
01-20-2006 06:32 PM
Ludi I remember seeing a program about a sheep's milk dairy in which the lambs stayed with the ewes except during milking, so there was no separation until natural weaning. I don't know how the economics of this worked, perhaps because they were able to get two valuable products from the animals (milk and wool), it was possible.
01-20-2006 06:14 PM
Bluebutterfly05
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgarrettfmly View Post

I think this is true. I've been thinking on this. Even if you could get/find someone who treated the milking cows humanely, you would still have to deal with the fact that they have calves. Calves from which you are taking their milk away. And hat would you do with them? Send them to pasture? You'd have more cows than you knew what to do with. Some of them would have to be sent to slaughter. So it really is a question of "less harmful" milk processes or no milk at all.

You're right. There may be less physical pain in certain cases, but in every case in the dairy industry, the emotional pain of having your baby taken from you is still there, and that may be the worst pain of all.
01-20-2006 06:09 PM
cgarrettfmly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotting View Post

The question might better be phrased as what would be a less harmful process of obtaining cow milk. It is not economically possible for it to be safe or friendly for the cows. As for cow milk being "for" infant cows, that doesn't mean anything, becuase life harvests food from any means it can. Why not to drink milk shouldn't be reasoned with some imagined purpose, but with the real suffering that is a direct result of dairy consuption.



I think this is true. I've been thinking on this. Even if you could get/find someone who treated the milking cows humanely, you would still have to deal with the fact that they have calves. Calves from which you are taking their milk away. And hat would you do with them? Send them to pasture? You'd have more cows than you knew what to do with. Some of them would have to be sent to slaughter. So it really is a question of "less harmful" milk processes or no milk at all.
01-20-2006 05:34 PM
Bluebutterfly05
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotting View Post

The question might better be phrased as what would be a less harmful process of obtaining cow milk. It is not economically possible for it to be safe or friendly for the cows. As for cow milk being "for" infant cows, that doesn't mean anything, becuase life harvests food from any means it can. Why not to drink milk shouldn't be reasoned with some imagined purpose, but with the real suffering that is a direct result of dairy consuption.

Well said!
01-20-2006 05:00 PM
Rotting The question might better be phrased as what would be a less harmful process of obtaining cow milk. It is not economically possible for it to be safe or friendly for the cows. As for cow milk being "for" infant cows, that doesn't mean anything, becuase life harvests food from any means it can. Why not to drink milk shouldn't be reasoned with some imagined purpose, but with the real suffering that is a direct result of dairy consuption.
01-20-2006 04:58 PM
Zebulun Yea, I read your other post about your move - so sorry! Too bad your hubby couldn't see if he could find a different position in a fire department elsewhere...unfortunately you probably won't be pleased living there....I hope you'll find something there that will make you happy......



Good luck with everything!
01-20-2006 04:48 PM
cgarrettfmly Thank you! I will have to check into it. We are moving next month to Coalinga. Ever heard of it? Probably....the place where meat is what's for dinner. I think there is like ONE supermarket in town, lol. But I'm sure they have some smaller dairies there. I know they have a local dairy in Hanford, which is about an hour away.
01-20-2006 04:44 PM
Zebulun I will try my best to answer you (but I'm fairly new at this too!). I'm vegetarian, not vegan, so I do consume milk, cheese, and eggs.



I think the answer would depend on where you are living. For an example, here in Maine, we have several small independent farms that have milk. One such farm is Smiling Hill Farm - you can visit them at www.smilinghill.com



Here is a quote from their website:


In this era of agribusiness the dairy industry has placed greater and greater emphasis on high production. Stress has increased on the animals and the average lifespan of a dairy cow has been reduced (some dairies take pride that with their increased cull rate a cow only spends three lactations in their herd). We take a different approach. We treat our cows like individuals and pride ourselves on the fact that due to the high quality care they receive at Smiling Hill Farm they live significantly longer than dairy cows nationally. This long lifespan is due to the combination of the low stress environment we provide as well as the quality of individual care they receive at Smiling Hill Farm.



I love the farm - I like to visit at least once a year and shop in their small farmstand. I buy their milk at my local Wild Oats when I'm in the area - unfortunately the nearest place for me to buy their milk is an hour away, so I don't buy it often...but I would buy it constantly if I could get it closer to home.



My point is: See if you can find a smaller dairy farm that has VALUES that do treat their cows as family. If you read over the Smiling Hill website, you'll see that they are very concious of the enviornment, and of their "family" of cows!!



Good luck in your search!!
01-20-2006 04:34 PM
penny79 i guess you took my questions as statmeents then? there were question marks after, meaning i was asking a question.
01-20-2006 04:14 PM
cgarrettfmly
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgarrettfmly View Post

but what about milk? And milk products? Is there an option that is more animal friendly?



I did ask a question. And I got several answers, not just yours. And for that I am thankful. The whole part about my alleged attatchment to milk, or my husbands, or suggesting he buy his own food, well, that was not solicited. It's not that I didn't like the answer to the question I posed. After all, that's why I asked in the first place.
01-20-2006 04:10 PM
penny79 just because you dont like the answer you got [in other words, 'no, taking milk from cows is not 'animal friendly] doesnt mean you didn't get an answer, nor does it mean someone was trying to change you or your husband.
01-20-2006 04:07 PM
cgarrettfmly I can and do make my own choices of what I eat. I can't, however, force him to believe what I do. I wouldn't want to. We each must choose these things for ourselves. He can and does buy his own crap for himself. I am not looking to get in argument about my husband or my marriage, thankyouverymuch. Just looking for an alternative, once again. But if there aren't any, then there aren't. And thanks for the info. or lack thereof. I will use it how I deem fit.

I don't get on here to get in arguments of vegan vs vegetarian. Personally I think it's a waste of time and energy. It's not unlike discussing vegetarianism with a meat farmer. It gets ya nowhere. In the end, you both walk off with your same beliefs, just with higher blood pressure.
01-20-2006 04:00 PM
penny79 so your husband has an attachment to cows milk? or you do? why cant you lessen your harm by drinking plant milk and if he wants the cruel stuff he can buy it? animals' milk is for the same species. example: pig milk is for piglettes.
01-20-2006 03:42 PM
cgarrettfmly
Quote:
Originally Posted by penny79 View Post

if you were a baby, an animal friendly milk would be your mothers but i imagine you are weaned so you don't need any milk from an 'animal.' try plant milks - they are healthy and suitable for human animals.



Now lets not get snarky. Like I said my husband is omni. I was just wondering if there were other options out there. While I can convince my husband to eat veggie at home, I KNOW that asking him to give up milk and cheese would..... not go over well in the least. He is tolerant and supportive of me, and I have seen him become more discriminating in his choices, but I sincerely doubt he will EVER go the whole route.
01-20-2006 03:30 PM
GhostUser You might be interested in this thread:



http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...ad.php?t=46990



And this link which is in that thread:



http://www.ffl.org/html/milk_issue.html
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