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#1 Old 11-21-2010, 01:22 AM
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Okay, since you guys don't agree with my plan to fight against non vegetarianism, what do you suggest? Do you all suggest that i go to the slaughterhouses and beg them to stop slaughtering. As if they will obey?
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#2 Old 11-21-2010, 08:48 AM
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I think the first thing you should do is to think about why non-vegetarianism (i.e. killing animals and using them as mere commodities) might be wrong. Animals are sentient beings just like humans, meaning that they can suffer and feel pain. When you look at the biology and genetic make-up of animals and humans, you might realise that there are no substantial differences that sets us apart. So in the big picture, we are the same. And since it's generally considered to be wrong to use violence against humans, then violence against animals must be wrong also. However, if being violent against humans is somehow acceptable, then you cannot use the above argument to show that violence against animals is wrong.

To answer your question, I would suggest joining up with animal rights organisations in your area. Help them do leafleting, give out free violence-free food, write letters to newspapers to argue the case for vegetarianism and respect towards animals, to politicians about food labelling laws, and to food companies about getting more violence-free options. In short, the challenge is to educate the masses of non-vegetarians, not to coerce them. And while slaughterhouses are extremely dirty and evil businesses, they simply fill a demand from the masses of the uneducated and uncaring.

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#3 Old 11-21-2010, 09:07 AM
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Okay, since you guys don't agree with my plan to fight against non vegetarianism, what do you suggest? Do you all suggest that i go to the slaughterhouses and beg them to stop slaughtering. As if they will obey?

Who says not to fight? The only way to fight is through violent action? Guess again.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#4 Old 11-21-2010, 10:44 AM
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You have advocated violence against animal exploiters and in another thread you said you eat eggs??


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#5 Old 11-21-2010, 11:04 AM
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I'm not convinced you're not a troll, but I do believe in violent protest. John Brown is one of my personal heroes, even though I don't think I would have had the courage to do what he did. Looking at the history of protest, I find again and again that both violent and non violent are important, but that violent protest spurs the greatest change.
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#6 Old 11-21-2010, 12:54 PM
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I don't think anything will be achieved if one uses only peaceful protests. Most will not listen
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#7 Old 11-21-2010, 01:12 PM
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...and they will listen to violence?

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#8 Old 11-21-2010, 01:18 PM
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at least they will notice violence. it is so much easoer to ignore peace


plus violence can have some direct benefit. i would say breaking in a lab and releasing animals is considered violent protest too. but in this case animals are saved. when you stand outside with a sign they get killed and people just laugh at you being the crazy animal supporter
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#9 Old 11-21-2010, 01:24 PM
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I've found though that people tend to really listen to an ardent, but peaceful activist, far more than someone hyper/violent. Whisper versus a shout and all that.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#10 Old 11-21-2010, 08:37 PM
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yeah, i notice violence. and i think "well, that wasn't very clever, was it? you've made yourself look like a right nutter there, haven't you? awesome job.". i don't respect violence. it makes me feel distrustful of the attacker, intimidated, and very skeptical about their ability to use logical thought and calm, rational behaviour. i see a spoiled child having a tantrum. i don't want to be around violent people, let alone affiliate myself with those who try and solve a problem with destruction and angry outbursts. no way steve.
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#11 Old 11-21-2010, 10:25 PM
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By breaking into a lab and rescuing animals you may have saved those animals but you are more likely to be looked at extremist and crazy. At the same time, peaceful protesing and educating may actually bring more people over to your side and that may not save those very animals but may save many more in the future (by having the recruited people change their lives and then become activists themselves).

ÂNothing can cure the soul but the senses, just as nothing can cure the senses but the soul. - Oscar Wilde
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#12 Old 11-21-2010, 11:11 PM
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I've found though that people tend to really listen to an ardent, but peaceful activist, far more than someone hyper/violent. Whisper versus a shout and all that.

When I talk to people I try to always be peaceful, not show anger and frustration etc. If a person shows interest, there is no need to get their attention to it. But it works differently for different people. For some I try to push their emotion side, for others i talk about health. Differemt things work for different people

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By breaking into a lab and rescuing animals you may have saved those animals but you are more likely to be looked at extremist and crazy. At the same time, peaceful protesing and educating may actually bring more people over to your side and that may not save those very animals but may save many more in the future (by having the recruited people change their lives and then become activists themselves).

I am sorry, but the sad thing is that people who are against animals rights will always look at protestors as crazy. Another thing is that a peaceful protest will never get in the news, breaking in the lab will. it will draw attention. make some people think about something that they enevr thought about. Different things work for different people. so different ways should be used. i did admire people who broke in to the labs as a kid
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#13 Old 11-22-2010, 03:55 AM
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I thank those who are supporting me. I think we have to use violence. If we use signboards and keep screaming, "Don't eat meat" the meat eaters will only laugh at us. Animals will continue to be slaughtered. Till now all animal organizations have been using non violence? So has there been any progress? No! So, why don't we just use violence and teach them a nice lesson. I know some humans will be killed, but many animals will be saved. Do you get it?
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#14 Old 11-22-2010, 04:53 AM
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I get that you need a chill pill.
Seriously it really hypocritical to kill to stop killing. And kind of crazy...
I don't respect anyone who uses violence and there are a lot of people out there who don't either.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will then know peace" - Jimi Hendrix
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#15 Old 11-22-2010, 05:55 AM
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I think we have to use violence.

Are you Punjabi by any chance?

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#16 Old 11-22-2010, 06:02 AM
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If we use signboards and keep screaming, "Don't eat meat" the meat eaters will only laugh at us.

How is eating meat any worse than eating eggs and thereby contributing to the callous killing of male chicks? Will your first act of violence be against yourself?

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#17 Old 11-22-2010, 06:22 AM
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I thank those who are supporting me. I think we have to use violence. If we use signboards and keep screaming, "Don't eat meat" the meat eaters will only laugh at us. Animals will continue to be slaughtered. Till now all animal organizations have been using non violence? So has there been any progress? No! So, why don't we just use violence and teach them a nice lesson. I know some humans will be killed, but many animals will be saved. Do you get it?

I don't condone violence unless my life is in imminent danger, i.e. it's me or my attacker. Otherwise, no violence.
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#18 Old 11-22-2010, 07:47 AM
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I am sorry, but the sad thing is that people who are against animals rights will always look at protestors as crazy. Another thing is that a peaceful protest will never get in the news, breaking in the lab will. it will draw attention. make some people think about something that they enevr thought about. Different things work for different people. so different ways should be used. i did admire people who broke in to the labs as a kid

Different things work for different people, true. Your statements about how anti-AR people view protestors and that peaceful protest not being in the news, are simply incorrect. Animal research is a big issue here in Oxford, there are protests all the time (at least once a week, there are court cases where protestors have been arrested, etc. It's a good place to test out some of these theories, and is in fact, where the idea of peaceful protest has been cemented in my mind. Large marches/rallies are in the newspaper/radio/television. The public and the protestors are often engaged, especially as the larger marches go through the main shopping area (also, bi-weekly stall in the "mall" area).

I don't discount that violent action can get attention, but you seem to be dismissing the effectiveness of non-violent methods.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#19 Old 11-22-2010, 08:48 AM
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I thank those who are supporting me. I think we have to use violence. If we use signboards and keep screaming, "Don't eat meat" the meat eaters will only laugh at us. Animals will continue to be slaughtered. Till now all animal organizations have been using non violence? So has there been any progress? No! So, why don't we just use violence and teach them a nice lesson. I know some humans will be killed, but many animals will be saved. Do you get it?

I don't think us screaming don't eat meat would be efective either. Screaming is on par with violence... people may notice but then dismiss it as crazy. Being a good example of a vegetarian or vegan and sharing information with other people is a lot more helpful. For example, I was eating the other day with some friends and I was odering veggie rols in a sushi place. Well, one friend asked me about why I wasn;t eating seafood and I explained I was a vegetarian and we talked a bit about that. By the end of the conversation she desided that she was going to try being pestecerian and see how it goes and possibly go vegetarian if that works out with her. I am not saying I converted her for life but at least she is trying something new and thinking about the issue. I am pretty sure if she saw protesters screaming or a news article about violence, she would have just dismissed that as crazy.

ÂNothing can cure the soul but the senses, just as nothing can cure the senses but the soul. - Oscar Wilde
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#20 Old 11-22-2010, 03:02 PM
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I'm willing to bet Why Vegan booklets have created more veg*ns than threats and violence.

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#21 Old 11-22-2010, 03:13 PM
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The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#22 Old 11-22-2010, 03:34 PM
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Till now all animal organizations have been using non violence? So has there been any progress? No! So, why don't we just use violence and teach them a nice lesson. I know some humans will be killed, but many animals will be saved. Do you get it?

Are you being serious? If so you're scaring me a little bit. What exactly is it that you are advocating? Are you saying that you want to form an army and attack omnivores? I used to be an omnivore. So did most people on this board. You're nuts if you think violence will get people to listen. All that's going to do is make people think veg*ns are insane extremists. Instilling fear into others will only hurt the movement.

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#23 Old 11-22-2010, 04:40 PM
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well i must say by violent protest i don't mean killing anyone. i mean more things like ALF is doing. when some animals get saved from a factory farm, lab, mink farm etc. killing omnis i think is going a bit too far and will throw us back
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#24 Old 11-22-2010, 04:44 PM
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Are you being serious? If so you're scaring me a little bit. What exactly is it that you are advocating? Are you saying that you want to form an army and attack omnivores? I used to be an omnivore. So did most people on this board. You're nuts if you think violence will get people to listen. All that's going to do is make people think veg*ns are insane extremists. Instilling fear into others will only hurt the movement.

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#25 Old 11-22-2010, 05:05 PM
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By breaking into a lab and rescuing animals you may have saved those animals but you are more likely to be looked at extremist and crazy. At the same time, peaceful protesing and educating may actually bring more people over to your side and that may not save those very animals but may save many more in the future (by having the recruited people change their lives and then become activists themselves).

Let's say you are one of the animals in the lab, what would you prefer happened?

Truth is both education and direct action (understood as acts of liberation, not indiscriminate killing) are necessary. I challenge all the people advocating for peaceful means only to show me answers to these questions:

- How is destroying inanimate objects built for the purpose of torture and killing violence? Even if it is, wouldn't destroying them prevent more violence than the act of destruction itself?
- Show me one example of social change that has been brought by peaceful means ONLY. Don't bother to cite Gandhi or Martin Luther King, you are just showing you need to read some history books.

Bottom line is we live in the most violent society ever created, the perpetrators of torture and death will not hesitate once to call everyone a terrorist and send them to jail or better, catch them in the act and legally murder them. Yet we pledge to play by their rules. Protests were effective when they were a threat, which is when they were not under the control of those same perpetrators. Now we need permits and designated areas of protest. The system has absorbed protest as a means of change, it is a given that when something is going to get done there will be protests, yet nothing will happen. A good example is the anti war protests in NYC against the Iraq war, thousands of people in the streets, guarded by police following a predetermined route nowhere close to where the people making the decisions would be. The outcome? The Iraq war is close to its 10th anniversary. Pretty different than the protests against Vietnam (which actually put pressure on the government to end it) or Seattle 99 against the WTO.

Education is the long term solution, direct action is needed for those already in cages. The moral high ground of pacifism will not get you anywhere but kicked in the face repeatedly.

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#26 Old 11-22-2010, 08:28 PM
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How is eating meat any worse than eating eggs and thereby contributing to the callous killing of male chicks? Will your first act of violence be against yourself?

+1

It is absolutely ridiculous to say you want to KILL people for eating meat when you are contributing to the death and torture of animals yourself. Violence doesn't solve anything, especially violence that involves attacking other people for doing something you're doing too. People in glass houses should not throw stones and all that.

Rather than advocate murder, why not stop eating eggs? You'll do a lot more good than you would trying to lead a veg*n crusade with torches and pitchforks or whatever.

"If we could live happy and healthy lives without harming others... why wouldn't we?" - Edgars Mission
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#27 Old 11-23-2010, 03:21 AM
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Well, eating eggs is no murder. I don't like to mention it but George Bernard Shaw, my favorite writer used to eat eggs. He was a vegetarian and well respected as a vegetarian but he used to eat eggs. How can eating eggs be murder? We have eaten it before the creature was born. So, it is not exactly murder, but still I am trying to eat less eggs. But remember, it is a little bit sad, but not murder. After two years, i will avoid eggs. Now, I am only 16. Wait, till i am 18.
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#28 Old 11-23-2010, 04:25 AM
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Well, eating eggs is no murder. I don't like to mention it but George Bernard Shaw, my favorite writer used to eat eggs. He was a vegetarian and well respected as a vegetarian but he used to eat eggs. How can eating eggs be murder? We have eaten it before the creature was born. So, it is not exactly murder, but still I am trying to eat less eggs. But remember, it is a little bit sad, but not murder. After two years, i will avoid eggs. Now, I am only 16. Wait, till i am 18.

Really? You just derailed your thread.

Just one of millions of links out there about the egg industry
http://www.eggindustry.com/

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#29 Old 11-23-2010, 04:27 AM
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- How is destroying inanimate objects built for the purpose of torture and killing violence? Even if it is, wouldn't destroying them prevent more violence than the act of destruction itself?

Destruction is always violence, whether it is destruction of an object or a creature. All destroying an object of vioelnce will do is postpone the violence. Insurance covers the costs and the demand for new objects in the market will increase and teh makers will make more money of it. And if you rescue the animals currently in the lab, new ones will be bred to replace the rescued one. At most, you are causing an inconveniance that may set a project back a few months if even that.

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- Show me one example of social change that has been brought by peaceful means ONLY. Don't bother to cite Gandhi or Martin Luther King, you are just showing you need to read some history books.

I would like to say that social changes using violence have also been ineffective. Yes, they may change things at the institutional level, but they do not change things at the personal level. Look at civil rights... 1. we do not have seperate but euqal yet in the US we have A schools which are predominantly white and F schools which are predominantly black so most schools are about 85% segregated anyway... 2. why is it that most men in jail are black and most juveniles in detention centers are black? on the outside they make it seem like everyone has the same opportunity but racism still exists and I would like to argue that if you are a black man you are more likely to get arrested for a crime than a white man...

I can sit here and come up with tens of examples about how racial equality looks good on paper but still greatly exists at the social level.

So, what can the violenet protests change? Maybe some laws... However, I would like to argue that if there was a government madate to be vegan, a huge black marlet would form for meat. Like marijuana, people will find a way to get something whether it is legal or not if they really want it. At least trying to change hearts has a better chance of changing people's actions through their minds rather than only at the institutional level that would make people more bitter.

Now I have a question for you...what is the ultimate goal of violence? In a perfect scenario, ho would violence change the big picture? On a legal level? Personal level for all people? Reduction of meat? Mandated veganism? And how would violence contribute to the goals?

ÂNothing can cure the soul but the senses, just as nothing can cure the senses but the soul. - Oscar Wilde
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#30 Old 11-23-2010, 04:38 AM
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Violence would have never convinced me to become a vegan when I still was an omni. I just would have fought back, be it mental or physical violence I would have been subjected to. What did was a vegan friend of mine talking to me and explaining the issues peacefully.

I'm a highly stubborn person, stick to my guns and stand my ground. I'm also not the only one like me around.
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