petition to ban halal meat - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-19-2008, 02:51 PM
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I saw this petition on gordon brown site to ban halal and kosher butchers in britian, it's a very sad story that i read on the internet how animals are killed for halal meat.

I've signed this petition.
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#2 Old 06-19-2008, 02:56 PM
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link?
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#3 Old 06-19-2008, 03:39 PM
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I seriously doubt that petition will get anywhere.

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#4 Old 06-20-2008, 02:31 AM
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Here is the link if anyone interested to sign it.



http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Kosher/
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#5 Old 06-20-2008, 02:57 AM
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Not cool, xsummerx. Bigotry all wrapped up in a pretty little "but I wub the pretty widdle lambsies" coat is still racism, religious discrimination and mindless bigotry. Not cool at all.



It's more that a tad discrimintatory to try and ban meat for one group of people while allowing meat for another group. Big thumbs down. I see you are trying to get Kosher products banned too. And here I was thinking that anti-Semitism had had it's day.



Goddam neo-Nazis.

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#6 Old 06-20-2008, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Amy SF View Post

I seriously doubt that petition will get anywhere.



I hope not. While I'd like to see all meat off the shelves crap like this is nothing more that neo-Nazi bull**** in another wrapper.

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#7 Old 06-20-2008, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

Not cool, xsummerx. Bigotry all wrapped up in a pretty little "but I wub the pretty widdle lambsies" coat is still racism, religious discrimination and mindless bigotry. Not cool at all.



It's more that a tad discrimintatory to try and ban meat for one group of people while allowing meat for another group. Big thumbs down. I see you are trying to get Kosher products banned too. And here I was thinking that anti-Semitism had had it's day.



Goddam neo-Nazis.

How is this neo-nazism? How is this anti-semite? How is it racist? It might be religious discrimination, but on the other hand shouldn't there be limits to what you can do in the name of religion?



Disclaimer: I don't know anything about the background and real motivation for this petition. I've only read what it said on the petiton page.

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#8 Old 06-20-2008, 05:04 AM
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True.

I would like too see meat of the shelves too, not too worry, one day everyone will be vegetarian
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#9 Old 06-20-2008, 05:06 AM
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I hope it does go somewhere.
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#10 Old 06-20-2008, 05:19 AM
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The petition is not made by me when you said that i am getting kosher products banned too

I hope i'm not offending anyone with this petition and thinking i'm racist, i'm not

Sorry.

When i cam accoss this petition on gordon brown site, i started to read about halal and kosher products and i found out lots of interesting facts.
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#11 Old 06-20-2008, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Kosher/#detail View Post


[strike]Halal & Kosher[/strike] butchery is barbaric and inhumane leading to severe suffering of the animal [strike]in the name of religion[/strike]. It is wrong [strike]for our nation[/strike] to promote [strike]these forms of[/strike] butchery and it must be banned to end all suffering of [strike]livestock[/strike] animals [strike]in the name of religion[/strike].



I edited their petition details a little to hopefully point out why this seems hypocritical to me too.

Besides, the use of the word livestock alone indicates that this petition is not really for the animals' sake.
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#12 Old 06-20-2008, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Indian Summer View Post

How is this neo-nazism? How is this anti-semite? How is it racist? It might be religious discrimination, but on the other hand shouldn't there be limits to what you can do in the name of religion?



Limits on what you can do in the name of Religion amounts to restricting religious freedom which is quite discriminatory and COULD be viewed as anti-muslim or anti-semite as it only targets those groups and no others.
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#13 Old 06-20-2008, 06:59 AM
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Limits on what you can do in the name of Religion amounts to restricting religious freedom which is quite discriminatory and COULD be viewed as anti-muslim or anti-semite as it only targets those groups and no others.

Yes, it is discriminatory, but I don't see anything wrong with that. There are already restrictions on what you can do in the name of religion. Back in the days they used to sacrifice people to please the gods. You can't do that any more, because that's murder, plain and simple. Then there are laws against polygamy. And in some countries, the law is that animals have to be unconscious before they can be halal-killed. Some muslims are unhappy about it, but there have to be limits to what you can do in the name of a god.

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#14 Old 06-20-2008, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

Not cool, xsummerx. Bigotry all wrapped up in a pretty little "but I wub the pretty widdle lambsies" coat is still racism, religious discrimination and mindless bigotry. Not cool at all.



It's more that a tad discrimintatory to try and ban meat for one group of people while allowing meat for another group. Big thumbs down. I see you are trying to get Kosher products banned too. And here I was thinking that anti-Semitism had had it's day.





Exactly my thoughts, too. Why ban meat used for consumption only by certain groups? Why not instead ban meat for ALL people? Instead of banning meat for these groups, why not a petiition pushing for more humane slaughter methods?

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#15 Old 06-20-2008, 07:57 AM
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The thing that I don't get is that this petition (and other ideas like it) seems to presuppose that halal and kosher slaughter is more cruel than any other method of slaughter.



Is the severe suffering of these magnificent beings more severe or more cruel because it is "in the name of religion" rather than in the name of nutrition?



The petition is short-sighted and hypocritical.



Suffering is suffering regardless of the stated reason behind it. Cruelty is cruelty no matter the expressed purpose.



The slaughter of a cow is no more or no less cruel because it is done in the name of religion and as near as I can tell halal and kosher slaughter methods are no more and no less cruel and torturous than other methods.

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#16 Old 06-20-2008, 09:31 AM
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The thing that I don't get is that this petition (and other ideas like it) seems to presuppose that halal and kosher slaughter is more cruel than any other method of slaughter.



Is the severe suffering of these magnificent beings more severe or more cruel because it is "in the name of religion" rather than in the name of nutrition?



The petition is short-sighted and hypocritical.



Suffering is suffering regardless of the stated reason behind it. Cruelty is cruelty no matter the expressed purpose.



The slaughter of a cow is no more or no less cruel because it is done in the name of religion and as near as I can tell halal and kosher slaughter methods are no more and no less cruel and torturous than other methods.



That's what bothers me about this petition. The methods of killing for halal meat is no more cruel than the rest of the methods. Why single it out? I'd sign a petition demanding more humane treatment but never one that singled out a religious method that is no more cruel than anything else.
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#17 Old 06-20-2008, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Amy SF View Post

Exactly my thoughts, too. Why ban meat used for consumption only by certain groups? Why not instead ban meat for ALL people? Instead of banning meat for these groups, why not a petiition pushing for more humane slaughter methods?



+1
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#18 Old 06-20-2008, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Indian Summer View Post

How is this neo-nazism? How is this anti-semite? How is it racist? It might be religious discrimination, but on the other hand shouldn't there be limits to what you can do in the name of religion?



Disclaimer: I don't know anything about the background and real motivation for this petition. I've only read what it said on the petiton page.





I see kiz point of view and it makes sense. What makes it anti-semitic is that the petition isnt to ban all meat just jewish and Halal(which i have no idea what that is)
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#19 Old 06-20-2008, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Indian Summer View Post

Yes, it is discriminatory, but I don't see anything wrong with that. There are already restrictions on what you can do in the name of religion. Back in the days they used to sacrifice people to please the gods. You can't do that any more, because that's murder, plain and simple. Then there are laws against polygamy. And in some countries, the law is that animals have to be unconscious before they can be halal-killed. Some muslims are unhappy about it, but there have to be limits to what you can do in the name of a god.





So all human sacrifice was outlawed not just jewish.
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#20 Old 06-20-2008, 11:01 AM
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I see kiz point of view and it makes sense. What makes it anti-semitic is that the petition isnt to ban all meat just jewish and Halal(which i have no idea what that is)

Yes, a ban would apply to both halal and shechita (kosher). So you can't argue that it's anti-semitic. Or do you not understand what "anti-semitic" means?



I think you would have to look at the motivation for the petition in order to pin it as anti-semitic. Who is behind this petition? Are they truly concerned about animal welfare, or are they just using welfare concerns as a cover?

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#21 Old 06-20-2008, 11:03 AM
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This is an odd petition to be posting on a veg board. Shouldn't we just cut to the chase?
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#22 Old 06-20-2008, 11:16 AM
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Could someone please define the following terms, for the sake of the discussion?



Halal



Kosher



Anti-semite



Seriously, I think there's a lot of people discussing the topic without understanding the terminology. I can't say I know much about any of it myself.

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#23 Old 06-20-2008, 11:22 AM
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I am converting Jewish and I do have a problem with the way a lot of Kosher slaughter is carried out - my Rabbi does not even eat kosher meat (she is omni) because she does not think it is ethically reared or killed. It is totally against the Jewish principles of how your fellow creatures should be treated. The slaughter was originally INTENDED to be less cruel than normal slaughter (as well as getting rid of the blood since blood is considered impure) but it has all gone wrong and I believe there are quite a number of Jewish veg*ns now for this reason. this is a good site about it with interesting links: http://www.jewishveg.com/ this petition is not going to go anywhere though because lots of people WILL consider it to be prejudiced.
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#24 Old 06-20-2008, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Indian Summer View Post

Yes, a ban would apply to both halal and shechita (kosher). So you can't argue that it's anti-semitic. Or do you not understand what "anti-semitic" means?



I think you would have to look at the motivation for the petition in order to pin it as anti-semitic. Who is behind this petition? Are they truly concerned about animal welfare, or are they just using welfare concerns as a cover?

Anti-semitism, strictly speaking, is against all speakers of semitic languages, that includes arabs too and assyrians.

it's just that it's usually used in connection with jews.
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#25 Old 06-20-2008, 11:35 AM
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Switzerland, Sweden, Iceland and Norway all have laws that strictly and unconditionally prohibit slaughter without prior stunning/unconsciousness. And the claims made in this thread that halal and shechita slaughter are no more cruel than conventional slaughter is obviously a matter of some debate:



Quote:
The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group.



The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), which advises the government on how to avoid cruelty to livestock, says the way Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals.

[...]

[FAWC] says cattle can take up to two minutes to bleed to death - amounting to an abuse of the animals.



"This is a major incision into the animal and to say that it doesn't suffer is quite ridiculous," said FAWC chairwoman, Dr Judy MacArthur Clark.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm



As a vegan I'm opposed to all sorts of animal slaughter, not just religious slaughter. But if you are in favour of an incremental approach to abolishing animal exploitation, then I don't think there's anything wrong in supporting this petition.

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#26 Old 06-20-2008, 11:43 AM
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Anti-semitism, strictly speaking, is against all speakers of semitic languages, that includes arabs too and assyrians.

it's just that it's usually used in connection with jews.

I can see that it would be reasonable to believe that, but you are mistaken:

Quote:
While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples since its creation it has been used exclusively to refer to hostility towards Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_Semitism

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#27 Old 06-20-2008, 12:31 PM
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While the system in the UK (where this petition is being made) is far from fool-proof, there is an attempt made in law to minimize animal suffering at the point of slaughter. Now my point is not to argue that this is successful (because it's often not), but rather to note that Kosher/Halal charceuteries aren't required even to make the effort.



In theory, the "one swift cut" method used is supposed to be "humane". In practice, it often leaves a cow struggling and writhing, suspended from his rear legs, while he bleeds to death, a time that can be up to 2 or 3 minutes.



I don't know anything about the creators of this petition, and I generally think that Internet petitions are a waste of time. However, to jump on this petition as being anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, or whatever is to assume facts not in evidence.

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#28 Old 06-20-2008, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by guinnesshero View Post

So all human sacrifice was outlawed not just jewish.

Neither is it only Jewish practice that the petition is seeking to ban in this instance.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#29 Old 06-20-2008, 12:44 PM
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I can see where everyone is coming from; however being Jewish, I think that all meat needs to be taken off the shelf and not just kosher meat. My Grandparents keep kosher and that would just destroy not only them, but also our culture/heritage. Until we take non kosher meat off the shelf, which I might add is slaughtered inhumanely, we need to leave kosher meat on them.
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#30 Old 06-20-2008, 12:48 PM
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Neither is it only Jewish practice that the petition is seeking to ban in this instance.





I know that they are tasrgeting 2 religions.Why arent they trying to ban all meat not just those.
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