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#1 Old 04-06-2017, 07:23 AM
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New member! Unsure about veganism....

Hey! I'm a new member so I will say some things about myself. I am currently pescetarian, due to living with my family (sadly they won't let me go completely vegan and they give me fish once a week.) As soon as I'm 18 however, I will probably make the switch. I already eat vegan the majority of the time, using dairy substitutes, I don't eat meat, I never eat eggs etc. The only time I may consume dairy or eggs is when I eat products which have them as a tiny ingredient, e.g. in flavourings, yogurt powder in naan breads etc. As said before, I eat fish once a week.

I suffer from OCD so I sadly get obsessive about things. I actually found out about veganism from a buzzfeed video (lol) and I started researching it from there. I have researched vegan topics heavily and therefore have made a change in my diet (as you can see) - I know the main 3 indicators (ethics, environment, health.) However, since I usually don't let things go easily and want to know everything (obsession!) I have created a lot of confusion for myself.

I'm starting to... doubt veganism. Most vegan activists talk about factory farming and it's effects on the environment and animals. But I thought... surely not all animals products come from here? So I started looking at small-scale farming. I can see there are farms where the animals are treated nicely, and that even some pastures are more suited for animals than crops.... and that grass (which we can't digest easily) can be put easily into nutrients... such as grass-fed beef. So I thought... what do most vegan activists say about this? Then I researched the philosophy and how animals are not ours to exploit... even if we treat them nicely. Animals are still bred to have features, such as producing milk or laying eggs, at a much larger rate than their wild counterparts. Cruel practices still exist on small farms. They are still killed at a young age compared to their natural lifespan. And that factory farming has arose because it's more efficient to meet demands. I even watched some videos of animal slaughter - not factory farms - (it doesn't trigger me too much) and even though it was done quickly, those animals still wanted to live.

This would seem to sort it... but then there are heath issues. I feel perfectly healthy so far and I know more about nutrition actually than I did before I was interested in veganism. Yet I know there are many people who have gastrointestinal problems or various allergies. My mum, for instance, has quite bad IBS, the kind mostly related to plant foods and not dairy. She also has thyroid problems which means she doesn't absorb nutrients properly. She literally relies on meat for protein and other important things (such as iron) because she can't eat things like beans or a lot of grains or even nuts & seeds in a large amount without having really bad issues. I also read this article on Authority Nutrition called '4 Reasons Why Some People Do Well as Vegans (While Others Fail Miserably)' and an article called 'Cornell study finds some people may be genetically programmed to be vegetarians' on Washington Post which suggests some people, due to different ancestries etc., may thrive better on different diets. If this is the case, is a vegan world really sustainable?

There is also the case of hunting. I know a lot of hunters are not animal-friendly people... but what about responsible hunters, such as what used to be many Native American tribes who hunted buffalo. They lived of the area and led very sustainable lives. Vegan diets are only possible due to supplements and the global food market. Isn't it more sustainable to eat a mostly plant-based diet, with some animal products. I feel very strong on the ethics, but now I'm confused. Do I really want a vegan world? If some people need animal products for health due to circumstances, or it's most sustainable for their area, can I say they are morally wrong? I also don't like the idea of restricting my diet... and having my body fight harder to get nutrients I could easily get from animal products. I heard that lean meats are really good for you as well. Basically... I don't know if I can say that all animal products are 'immoral' anymore. I wonder whether I should just support animal products from places which are sustainable instead of a completely vegan diet. Most cultures in general are not completely vegan... and this is because it's best for them. I want what is best for the world... and veganism has so many issues surrounding it... such as feeding carnivorous pets, everyone being healthy on a vegan diet (food availability?), what will happen to all the animals etc. I'm starting to think a mostly plant-based diet with some animal products is better. But maybe this is me victimizing myself... and ignoring the slaughter equation and how the animal suffers. I don't know anymore. This is just my confusion summed up, and if you guys can answer any issues I have bought up... I would appreciate it. This isn't me trying to be anti-vegan, and what I have said I can't back up by sources because it's just me regurgitating all the research I have done. I'm just confused and would like help. Thank you!

Last edited by inquisitivecat01; 04-06-2017 at 08:12 AM. Reason: My original post was short and just a test - this is what I want to post.
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#2 Old 06-12-2017, 04:37 AM
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I tend to think of a true turn to veganism is something of an epiphany. Watching Earthlings may give it to you.

Just reminder you'll be in great company. I'm not going to produce the standard list, but a very high number of the greatest minds historically were near or complete vegetarians. Not being able to fortify with B12 means dairy in the old days was usually a wise decision. I think a vegetarian of a couple hundred years ago is equivalent to a vegan today.

You just need to make your peace with fact nothing we eat is "natural", not even paleo. Veganism is the best choice now, in the modern world; it was not the best choice for Inuits living near the Arctic, before Columbus.

Vegan life would be much harder without the new world crops - corn, peanut, potato, avocado, cashew, tomato, capsicum, squash (just naming some prominent savoury items.) Because hunting was necessary for our forebears doesn't mean it's morally acceptable now.
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#3 Old 06-13-2017, 12:34 AM
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Paleo is very very UN-natural. Hunters and gatherers ate far more plant matter than meat. Stone age people where hunters and gatherer and they did not eat a lot of meat because first you had to find it alive and kicking and it was much more interested in killing you than you killing it. Native Americans hunting buffalo, lots of humans died in that endevour not just the buffalo.- plants are easier and safer to get. Plants are also easier to digest than animal products.

"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci, Italian Painter, Sculptor, Architect, Musician, Engineer, and Scientist

When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. ~Ingrid Newkirk

Last edited by BlueMts; 06-13-2017 at 12:49 AM.
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#4 Old 06-13-2017, 07:50 AM
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I think you are over thinking it. Choosing to go vegan doesn't necessarily mean you believe the entire world should go vegan. It's a personal choice, and like the person said above, it becomes kind of an epiphany. Only a few weeks in, and I've stopped viewing animal products as food. It sounds dramatic, but sometimes it really feels like animal products are poison, and I'm having to dodge eating poison everywhere I go. I guess for some people it just hits you. Animal products just gross me out now.

I would never push for the entire world to go vegan. It's not realistic, and could spell disaster for some cultures. I think the goal should be to reduce animal consumption as much as possible. SO if you can eat vegan without health issues, I think it's the responsible thing to do to make the switch. and if you absolutely cannot go without meat for whatever medical reasons, then make sure you buy organic. The goal is to do away with factory farming. If half of all Americans went vegan, think of what a difference that would make. Think of what a difference just one person makes. Do you want to be part of that?

It's totally up to you, your body, and your morals. Some vegans may vilify you for choosing to eat meat, but many of them are extremists. While I seriously dislike the idea of an animal dying for our consumption, it is something that has been going on for centuries, and we can't expect it to end entirely. However, the way we are doing it today (factory farming) is reprehensible.

Also, I would advocate for everyone to stop using dairy products if you are going to do anything because there is absolutely no reason for it. I know cheese taste good or whatever, but realizing we rape cows and steal their children away to get it kiiinda makes you not like the taste so much.

Just do you boo<3 Do what feels right for you

'Life begins at the end of your comfort zone.' -Neale Donald Walsch
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#5 Old 06-28-2017, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by felpel91 View Post
I think you are over thinking it. Choosing to go vegan doesn't necessarily mean you believe the entire world should go vegan. It's a personal choice, and like the person said above, it becomes kind of an epiphany. Only a few weeks in, and I've stopped viewing animal products as food. It sounds dramatic, but sometimes it really feels like animal products are poison, and I'm having to dodge eating poison everywhere I go. I guess for some people it just hits you. Animal products just gross me out now.

I would never push for the entire world to go vegan. It's not realistic, and could spell disaster for some cultures. I think the goal should be to reduce animal consumption as much as possible. SO if you can eat vegan without health issues, I think it's the responsible thing to do to make the switch. and if you absolutely cannot go without meat for whatever medical reasons, then make sure you buy organic. The goal is to do away with factory farming. If half of all Americans went vegan, think of what a difference that would make. Think of what a difference just one person makes. Do you want to be part of that?

It's totally up to you, your body, and your morals. Some vegans may vilify you for choosing to eat meat, but many of them are extremists. While I seriously dislike the idea of an animal dying for our consumption, it is something that has been going on for centuries, and we can't expect it to end entirely. However, the way we are doing it today (factory farming) is reprehensible.

Also, I would advocate for everyone to stop using dairy products if you are going to do anything because there is absolutely no reason for it. I know cheese taste good or whatever, but realizing we rape cows and steal their children away to get it kiiinda makes you not like the taste so much.

Just do you boo<3 Do what feels right for you
Thank you so much! I like this approach to veganism the most. I think I was just trying to see veganism through an 'all or nothing' perspective - veganism has to be perfect, otherwise it is not the right option. Obviously not. Luckily since I posted this my parents have allowed me to replace fish with mussels instead. Mussels (& oysters) are bivalves, a type of shellfish, and since they are animals they are not considered vegan or vegetarian. However, despite being animals, they appear to have a low level of self-perception and have nerve ganglia instead of a central nervous system. So, they are still more sentient than plants, but they provide long chain omega 3 fatty acids and Vitamin B12. Obviously you can just supplement B12 and convert ALA omega 3 (from plants) into EPA and DHA (found in fish + algae) but this conversion rate can sometimes be low. There is now vegan EPA and DHA in algae oil supplement form, but these tend to be expensive. Therefore, I feel allowing mussels + oysters lets my diet be more varied. So, I now have a diet of plants & once or sometimes twice a week, a serving of mussels (not oysters at the moment, because they are not available to me at the moment.) I feel healthy eating vegan and don't see animal products as food any more as well (with the exception of the mussels + oysters.) It is actually very easy to get enough nutrients with plants I looked at the Abolitionist approach to veganism for a while, but no longer agree with it. It seems to be the most morally consistent, but I don't think it is realistic in reality, and not the best for animals (is extinction compared to shorter, but nice lives on non-factory farms really better?)
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#6 Old 06-28-2017, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by inquisitivecat01 View Post
Thank you so much! I like this approach to veganism the most. I think I was just trying to see veganism through an 'all or nothing' perspective - veganism has to be perfect, otherwise it is not the right option. Obviously not. Luckily since I posted this my parents have allowed me to replace fish with mussels instead. Mussels (& oysters) are bivalves, a type of shellfish, and since they are animals they are not considered vegan or vegetarian. However, despite being animals, they appear to have a low level of self-perception and have nerve ganglia instead of a central nervous system. So, they are still more sentient than plants, but they provide long chain omega 3 fatty acids and Vitamin B12. Obviously you can just supplement B12 and convert ALA omega 3 (from plants) into EPA and DHA (found in fish + algae) but this conversion rate can sometimes be low. There is now vegan EPA and DHA in algae oil supplement form, but these tend to be expensive. Therefore, I feel allowing mussels + oysters lets my diet be more varied. So, I now have a diet of plants & once or sometimes twice a week, a serving of mussels (not oysters at the moment, because they are not available to me at the moment.) I feel healthy eating vegan and don't see animal products as food any more as well (with the exception of the mussels + oysters.) It is actually very easy to get enough nutrients with plants I looked at the Abolitionist approach to veganism for a while, but no longer agree with it. It seems to be the most morally consistent, but I don't think it is realistic in reality, and not the best for animals (is extinction compared to shorter, but nice lives on non-factory farms really better?)
Kudos to you because you're dealing with this while living with your parents etc. That can be hard.

HOWEVER I find concept of vegan plus a few mussels/oysters here and there extremely odd. There was another person here whose exception was honey.

I certainly don't want to belittle anyone's efforts who almost are vegan but I don't understand the mindset. I wouldn't be surprised if, since you choose to eat mussels, you'd possibly eat actual fish in a social setting to make others happy.

Mussels and honey aren't hard to give up. I have much more empathy for those trying to wean off dairy, personally. Manufacturers wack a bit of dairy into so many things that don't need it

Anyway perhaps the seafood is a compromise and that makes your parents more accepting.

I have a pride in being a strict dietary vegan. In a society with bombardment by fast food advertisers and cooking shows focused on meat it demonstrates some strength of character to pull off permanently. Those who allow weird little exceptions are for me like people who quit uni/college a semester before graduation. You're almost there! You're body is no longer a graveyard of God's creatures...almost!

But anyway it's good you're not eating cows and pigs.
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#7 Old 06-29-2017, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by inquisitivecat01 View Post
Hey! I'm a new member so I will say some things about myself. I am currently pescetarian, due to living with my family (sadly they won't let me go completely vegan and they give me fish once a week.) As soon as I'm 18 however, I will probably make the switch. I already eat vegan the majority of the time, using dairy substitutes, I don't eat meat, I never eat eggs etc. The only time I may consume dairy or eggs is when I eat products which have them as a tiny ingredient, e.g. in flavourings, yogurt powder in naan breads etc. As said before, I eat fish once a week.

I suffer from OCD so I sadly get obsessive about things. I actually found out about veganism from a buzzfeed video (lol) and I started researching it from there. I have researched vegan topics heavily and therefore have made a change in my diet (as you can see) - I know the main 3 indicators (ethics, environment, health.) However, since I usually don't let things go easily and want to know everything (obsession!) I have created a lot of confusion for myself.

I'm starting to... doubt veganism. Most vegan activists talk about factory farming and it's effects on the environment and animals. But I thought... surely not all animals products come from here? So I started looking at small-scale farming. I can see there are farms where the animals are treated nicely, and that even some pastures are more suited for animals than crops.... and that grass (which we can't digest easily) can be put easily into nutrients... such as grass-fed beef. So I thought... what do most vegan activists say about this? Then I researched the philosophy and how animals are not ours to exploit... even if we treat them nicely. Animals are still bred to have features, such as producing milk or laying eggs, at a much larger rate than their wild counterparts. Cruel practices still exist on small farms. They are still killed at a young age compared to their natural lifespan. And that factory farming has arose because it's more efficient to meet demands. I even watched some videos of animal slaughter - not factory farms - (it doesn't trigger me too much) and even though it was done quickly, those animals still wanted to live.

This would seem to sort it... but then there are heath issues. I feel perfectly healthy so far and I know more about nutrition actually than I did before I was interested in veganism. Yet I know there are many people who have gastrointestinal problems or various allergies. My mum, for instance, has quite bad IBS, the kind mostly related to plant foods and not dairy. She also has thyroid problems which means she doesn't absorb nutrients properly. She literally relies on meat for protein and other important things (such as iron) because she can't eat things like beans or a lot of grains or even nuts & seeds in a large amount without having really bad issues. I also read this article on Authority Nutrition called '4 Reasons Why Some People Do Well as Vegans (While Others Fail Miserably)' and an article called 'Cornell study finds some people may be genetically programmed to be vegetarians' on Washington Post which suggests some people, due to different ancestries etc., may thrive better on different diets. If this is the case, is a vegan world really sustainable?

There is also the case of hunting. I know a lot of hunters are not animal-friendly people... but what about responsible hunters, such as what used to be many Native American tribes who hunted buffalo. They lived of the area and led very sustainable lives. Vegan diets are only possible due to supplements and the global food market. Isn't it more sustainable to eat a mostly plant-based diet, with some animal products. I feel very strong on the ethics, but now I'm confused. Do I really want a vegan world? If some people need animal products for health due to circumstances, or it's most sustainable for their area, can I say they are morally wrong? I also don't like the idea of restricting my diet... and having my body fight harder to get nutrients I could easily get from animal products. I heard that lean meats are really good for you as well. Basically... I don't know if I can say that all animal products are 'immoral' anymore. I wonder whether I should just support animal products from places which are sustainable instead of a completely vegan diet. Most cultures in general are not completely vegan... and this is because it's best for them. I want what is best for the world... and veganism has so many issues surrounding it... such as feeding carnivorous pets, everyone being healthy on a vegan diet (food availability?), what will happen to all the animals etc. I'm starting to think a mostly plant-based diet with some animal products is better. But maybe this is me victimizing myself... and ignoring the slaughter equation and how the animal suffers. I don't know anymore. This is just my confusion summed up, and if you guys can answer any issues I have bought up... I would appreciate it. This isn't me trying to be anti-vegan, and what I have said I can't back up by sources because it's just me regurgitating all the research I have done. I'm just confused and would like help. Thank you!
I thought this was a thread about cats. :thnk: Could an admin/mod please correct me if I'm wrong? Thanks.
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#8 Old 06-30-2017, 01:11 AM
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I thought so too.
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"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci, Italian Painter, Sculptor, Architect, Musician, Engineer, and Scientist

When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. ~Ingrid Newkirk
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