Are local farms ok? - VeggieBoards

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#1 Old 08-25-2015, 12:46 PM
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Question Are local farms ok?

Hello! I'm transitioning from vegetarian to vegan (yaaaay). My husband understands why I don't want to have dairy and eggs from big "farms" but doesn't see the point in avoiding dairy and eggs from small, local farms. I argued that the animal would be killed anyway. But what if it's not?

I'd love to hear a variety of answers and opinions!

Thanks!
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#2 Old 08-25-2015, 12:58 PM
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What do you mean what if it's not? For example, chickens. What if the chicken is not killed, but is kept in a small, cramped cage with no sunlight and no life. No matter if it's big business or local business, it's the same cruelty.

On the other hand, what if the chicken is kept out in the open, free-range, and leads a happy life? If that were guaranteed, would you still eat those eggs?
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#3 Old 08-25-2015, 01:03 PM
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There's no such thing as a farm where the animals aren't slaughtered or sold for slaughter once their productivity drops. Male calves and chicks are also slaughtered or sold for veal, as there is no use for males in the dairy and egg industry. It would be financially impossible for a farm to pay for the upkeep of all these animals which bring in no money. Even those farms which don't slaughter the animals on the premises send them somewhere else for slaughter.
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#4 Old 08-25-2015, 01:20 PM
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On the other hand, what if the chicken is kept out in the open, free-range, and leads a happy life? If that were guaranteed, would you still eat those eggs?
This is what I'm wondering. I am still learning and reading, and I want to know a couple things:

1. Do these types of places even exist? (open, free-range, happy animals not killed when they're too old to produce)
2. If they do exist, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume these dairy/egg products?
3. Out on a limb, but lets say I get myself a chicken that I love and care for like I would a dog or child, and it lays eggs, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume those eggs?
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#5 Old 08-25-2015, 01:21 PM
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Also, thanks so much for the answers! I appreciate any feedback and guidance while I educate myself on all these issues.
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#6 Old 08-25-2015, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by nicolelld View Post
This is what I'm wondering. I am still learning and reading, and I want to know a couple things:

1. Do these types of places even exist? (open, free-range, happy animals not killed when they're too old to produce)
2. If they do exist, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume these dairy/egg products?
3. Out on a limb, but lets say I get myself a chicken that I love and care for like I would a dog or child, and it lays eggs, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume those eggs?
You'll be hard pressed to find a truly humane farm. I'm inclined to believe that there is no such thing. Such a farm wouldn't be profitable. Even if you found one, what are the chances that it would be in your state or your country? How would you even get the dairy and eggs to your home? Consider, also, that you could ONLY consume dairy and eggs from this particular farm. That means no eating dairy and eggs at restaurants or at the houses of family and friends, no purchasing products containing dairy and eggs like baked goods from any bakery-- essentially, you would have to eat a vegan diet anyway. As for the ethics of eating these products (or the eggs from a backyard hen), I suppose you have to ask yourself whether it's ethical to commodify a living creature. Personally, I don't view someone else's bodily secretions as something appropriate for me to take for my own needs, certainly not without consent. I also wouldn't want to propagate the erroneous idea that animals are ours to use for food. Essentially, if I wouldn't feel comfortable doing something to another person, I try not to do it to an animal.
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#7 Old 08-25-2015, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by nicolelld View Post
This is what I'm wondering. I am still learning and reading, and I want to know a couple things:

1. Do these types of places even exist? (open, free-range, happy animals not killed when they're too old to produce)
2. If they do exist, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume these dairy/egg products?
3. Out on a limb, but lets say I get myself a chicken that I love and care for like I would a dog or child, and it lays eggs, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume those eggs?
To answer 1), I doubt it- definitely not anyplace that sells milk or eggs commercially, anyway.

3)- if a particular chicken lays eggs, then that bird is female. If you really love and care for her like you would a dog or child, why did you refer to her as "it"? (I have heard babies sometimes referred to as "it" when their gender was not known and it really bothers me!) Anyway: unless you adopted/rescued a hen who was going to be culled from her flock (that is, killed) because her egg production is falling off and she's no longer "earning her keep", you'd probably have to buy your chicken from a commercial producer- and since chickens are hatched in equal numbers male/female, but only very few males are needed to inseminate the hens, almost all the male chicks are killed. Buying a hen would be supporting this scheme.

And an old hen would presumably not lay many eggs for how much you were feeding her.

I know veganism can be a pain sometimes, but I honestly think it's easier to do without eggs and milk than to produce them in a truly ethical manner.
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#8 Old 08-25-2015, 06:03 PM
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To answer 1), I doubt it- definitely not anyplace that sells milk or eggs commercially, anyway.

3)- if a particular chicken lays eggs, then that bird is female. If you really love and care for her like you would a dog or child, why did you refer to her as "it"? (I have heard babies sometimes referred to as "it" when their gender was not known and it really bothers me!) Anyway: unless you adopted/rescued a hen who was going to be culled from her flock (that is, killed) because her egg production is falling off and she's no longer "earning her keep", you'd probably have to buy your chicken from a commercial producer- and since chickens are hatched in equal numbers male/female, but only very few males are needed to inseminate the hens, almost all the male chicks are killed. Buying a hen would be supporting this scheme.

And an old hen would presumably not lay many eggs for how much you were feeding her.

I know veganism can be a pain sometimes, but I honestly think it's easier to do without eggs and milk than to produce them in a truly ethical manner.
Not trying to derail the thread, but I like your idea about the "it" thing. I try to only use "it" when I don't know the sex of something, like a snake or a turtle. Even then I usually like to just call the creature by it's species name. I do catch myself slipping sometimes though out of just old habit of my past brainwashed ideology that some beings are worth less than others and that makes it ok for "it" to be food. Glad we all finally moved on from that!

Now on to the topic...I wouldn't support the small farm that sells dairy or meat...just as bad but on a smaller scale!

I do not ever see myself intentionally eating eggs of any kind ever again after all the research I have done on meat/dairy recently...even if I had a chicken in the backyard that was loved as a pet and promised to care for her until her death.

If I did ever happen to have an egg laying chicken as a pet (not likely) I would rather just throw the unfertilized eggs over the fence so a racoon or something could eat them rather than eat them myself, wouldn't want to waste them but I just don't have a use!
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#9 Old 08-25-2015, 10:05 PM
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Even if it's a farm where the chickens and cows have all the space in the world to roam free and calfs aren't taken away and no animal is slaughtered. What it is to me that is wrong is that we USE these animals for our own desires and benefits. I know we can't exactly go and ask a chicken if we can have her eggs or a cow if we can have a bit of their milk, but to me it just seems wrong. We especially don't need dairy in our diet, we don't need it to survive and thrive. So there is no need to take eggs and milk from other animals. I believe that is wrong for people to be used and also for animals to be used. It's all just desire and greed to me tbh.

Hope that made sense
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#10 Old 08-26-2015, 05:48 AM
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There's no such thing as a farm where the animals aren't slaughtered or sold for slaughter once their productivity drops. <snip> It would be financially impossible for a farm to pay for the upkeep of all these animals which bring in no money. Even those farms which don't slaughter the animals on the premises send them somewhere else for slaughter.
This is wrong, IMO. There are some smaller places that actually do have chickens/other animals as pets. They have names, they don’t ‘slaughter’ them. They utilize the eggs for food. This may not make much financial sense as a business (and it’s very possible they’re not doing it for profit), but it shouldn’t be overlooked or dismissed outright. They might not be classified as farms, but they do exist. They’re hard to find, though.

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Originally Posted by nicolelld View Post
This is what I'm wondering. I am still learning and reading, and I want to know a couple things:

1. Do these types of places even exist? (open, free-range, happy animals not killed when they're too old to produce)
2. If they do exist, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume these dairy/egg products?
3. Out on a limb, but lets say I get myself a chicken that I love and care for like I would a dog or child, and it lays eggs, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume those eggs?
1. Yes, but few and far between.
2. If the animal is not being exploited, I personally think so.
3. See #2.

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Not trying to derail the thread, but I like your idea about the "it" thing. I try to only use "it" when I don't know the sex of something, like a snake or a turtle. Even then I usually like to just call the creature by it's species name. I do catch myself slipping sometimes though out of just old habit of my past brainwashed ideology that some beings are worth less than others and that makes it ok for "it" to be food. Glad we all finally moved on from that!

Now on to the topic...I wouldn't support the small farm that sells dairy or meat...just as bad but on a smaller scale!

I do not ever see myself intentionally eating eggs of any kind ever again after all the research I have done on meat/dairy recently...even if I had a chicken in the backyard that was loved as a pet and promised to care for her until her death.

If I did ever happen to have an egg laying chicken as a pet (not likely) I would rather just throw the unfertilized eggs over the fence so a racoon or something could eat them rather than eat them myself, wouldn't want to waste them but I just don't have a use!
Yeah, the “it” thing will derail the thread quickly, like arguing semantics. If you call a child that you don’t know the sex “it” is just as bad. Why not say “child” instead of “it”? 'It' is just a habit for most people.

By throwing eggs over the fence, aren’t you now having a raccoon or other animal dependent upon those eggs? That’s worse, IMO.

Personally, I think throwing away food that you had access to from an ethical standpoint is unethical.

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I know veganism can be a pain sometimes, but I honestly think it's easier to do without eggs and milk than to produce them in a truly ethical manner.
We should never refer to something we believe in as a pain. Shouldn’t we refer to the other side as “the easy way out”?

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What it is to me that is wrong is that we USE these animals for our own desires and benefits. I know we can't exactly go and ask a chicken if we can have her eggs or a cow if we can have a bit of their milk, but to me it just seems wrong. <snip> It's all just <snip> greed to me tbh.
Agree, like many people use children for their own benefit. Or religion for their own benefit. Or [really anything] for their own benefit.
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#11 Old 08-26-2015, 06:33 AM
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This is wrong, IMO. There are some smaller places that actually do have chickens/other animals as pets. They have names, they don’t ‘slaughter’ them. They utilize the eggs for food. This may not make much financial sense as a business (and it’s very possible they’re not doing it for profit), but it shouldn’t be overlooked or dismissed outright. They might not be classified as farms, but they do exist. They’re hard to find, though.
If such a place does exist (and I'm extremely sceptical), it couldn't possibly function as a farm. Where did they get the hens or cows? What happens to the male chicks and calves? I'll concede that there may be an individual who enjoys raising rescue hens in his backyard and eats or sells the eggs, but such an operation isn't sustainable (as the hens' productivity will drop) and still involves the exploitation and unnecessary use of these animals. This goes double for dairy cows raised on hobby farms, as they still need to be forcibly impregnated and milked. I'm sorry, but it just isn't possible to humanely commodify another creature.

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Personally, I think throwing away food that you had access to from an ethical standpoint is unethical.
Most people who care for rescued laying hens feed the eggs back to the hens themselves. These animals have been selectively bred to produce way more eggs than is healthy. Eating their own eggs replenishes some of the many vitamins and minerals lost in laying.

Aside from this, I don't consider a chicken's egg "food" and genuinely can't understand why anyone else would. An egg is food in the same way that a pet's dead body is food-- that is, we could technically eat it, but it would be disgusting and disrespectful to do so. Treating animals and their bodily secretions as something acceptable and desirable for humans to eat only encourages us to commodify and exploit them for our own pleasure and profit. As long as there's a demand for eggs, the person with the most eggs can earn the most money-- and as long as that's true, people will find ways to increase egg production. We already know where that path inevitably leads.
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#12 Old 08-26-2015, 06:56 AM
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If such a place does exist (and I'm extremely sceptical), it couldn't possibly function as a farm. Where did they get the hens or cows? What happens to the male chicks and calves? I'll concede that there may be an individual who enjoys raising rescue hens in his backyard and eats or sells the eggs, but such an operation isn't sustainable (as the hens' productivity will drop) and still involves the exploitation and unnecessary use of these animals. This goes double for dairy cows raised on hobby farms, as they still need to be forcibly impregnated and milked. I'm sorry, but it just isn't possible to humanely commodify another creature.



Most people who care for rescued laying hens feed the eggs back to the hens themselves. These animals have been selectively bred to produce way more eggs than is healthy. Eating their own eggs replenishes some of the many vitamins and minerals lost in laying.

Aside from this, I don't consider a chicken's egg "food" and genuinely can't understand why anyone else would. An egg is food in the same way that a pet's dead body is food-- that is, we could technically eat it, but it would be disgusting and disrespectful to do so. Treating animals and their bodily secretions as something acceptable and desirable for humans to eat only encourages us to commodify and exploit them for our own pleasure and profit. As long as there's a demand for eggs, the person with the most eggs can earn the most money-- and as long as that's true, people will find ways to increase egg production. We already know where that path inevitably leads.
Humans are 'commodified' on a daily basis. I am right now. I work for my company. I get exploited--my company charges me to a client at 3 to 4 times what I make an hour. I don't make nearly as much as I consider myself to be worth. But, that's life.

Admittedly, yes, these places probably do not operate as a business and probably do not make a profit. But, to outright dismiss them isn't good. They're trying to do what they love, give the animals a good life, and possibly make a few dollars here and there. Why discourage them?

As far as considering an egg food, anything that can provide nutritional content to sustain a living being is food. Some animals eat other animal's eggs all the time. Sorry, but your comparison between an egg and a dead animal is misguided. An egg can provide nutritional content to most living beings, while a corpse can carry lots of bacteria and toxins that are not fit to eat by most animals.
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#13 Old 08-26-2015, 07:39 AM
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Humans are 'commodified' on a daily basis. I am right now. I work for my company. I get exploited--my company charges me to a client at 3 to 4 times what I make an hour. I don't make nearly as much as I consider myself to be worth. But, that's life.
That's an inappropriate analogy. You're a consenting adult who voluntarily signed an employment contract at a company which, presumably, pays you at least the legal minimum and from which you can remove yourself should you decide that you don't want to work there anymore. If you are instead being forced to work against your will without pay, then you're being enslaved and should seek the aid of a human rights organisation. Saying that it's morally acceptable to commodify an animal because humans accept gainful employment is like saying that it's acceptable to rape an animal because humans engage in consensual sex.

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Admittedly, yes, these places probably do not operate as a business and probably do not make a profit. But, to outright dismiss them isn't good. They're trying to do what they love, give the animals a good life, and possibly make a few dollars here and there. Why discourage them?
If this hypothetical place doesn't operate as a business, then it's completely irrelevant to OP's needs, as OP would not be able to purchase dairy and eggs for personal use. Also, again, what happens to the male chicks and calves? How can these hypothetical farmers afford to care for all these animals who aren't bringing in any money? Where did they get the animals in the first place, and how do they intend to replenish their numbers when the animals stop producing or pass away? How are their cows impregnated and what happens to the calves if the milk is taken for human consumption?

If you truly want to give an animal a good life, you don't breed them and sell their bodily secretions. I've met a lot of rescue cats and dogs in my time and no one has ever tried to sell me their milk. I don't see why cows and chickens should be treated any differently-- and on true farm sanctuaries, they aren't. If you want an example of people who actually have the animals' best interests in mind rather than their own, check out Farm Sanctuary in Watkins Glen, New York. You will find plenty of cows, chickens, goats, ducks, and sheep there but no eggs, milk, or wool for sale because, unlike farmers, rescuers are genuinely concerned with giving these animals a good life.

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As far as considering an egg food, anything that can provide nutritional content to sustain a living being is food. Some animals eat other animal's eggs all the time. Sorry, but your comparison between an egg and a dead animal is misguided. An egg can provide nutritional content to most living beings, while a corpse can carry lots of bacteria and toxins that are not fit to eat by most animals.
What are you talking about? Animals eat dead animals all the time. Have you never fed a cat, watched a nature documentary, or been to a fast food restaurant? Some animals EXCLUSIVELY get their nutrients from corpses. If you truly believe that it's unethical NOT to eat "anything that can provide nutritional content to sustain a living being," then in addition to your rescue hen's eggs you should also be eating your dead pets, the placentas and breast milk of every mother you know (human or otherwise), any insects that you should happen to kill (accidentally or otherwise), and a great many other things which I've no doubt strike you as unappetizing and distasteful, as chicken's eggs and cow's breast milk should.

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#14 Old 08-26-2015, 07:55 AM
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That's an inappropriate analogy. You're a consenting adult who voluntarily signed an employment contract at a company which, presumably, pays you at least the legal minimum and from which you can remove yourself should you decide that you don't want to work there anymore. If you are instead being forced to work against your will without pay, then you're being enslaved and should seek the aid of a human rights organisation. Saying that it's morally acceptable to commodify an animal because humans accept gainful employment is like saying that it's acceptable to rape an animal because humans engage in consensual sex.

If this hypothetical place doesn't operate as a business, then it's completely irrelevant to OP's needs, as OP would not be able to purchase dairy and eggs for personal use. Also, again, what happens to the male chicks and calves? How can these hypothetical farmers afford to care for all these animals who aren't bringing in any money? Where did they get the animals in the first place, and how do they intend to replenish their numbers when the animals stop producing or pass away? How are their cows impregnated and what happens to the calves if the milk is taken for human consumption?

If you truly want to give an animal a good life, you don't breed them and sell their bodily secretions. I've met a lot of rescue cats and dogs in my time and no one has ever tried to sell me their milk. I don't see why cows and chickens should be treated any differently-- and on true farm sanctuaries, they aren't. If you want an example of people who actually have the animals' best interests in mind rather than their own, check out Farm Sanctuary in Watkins Glen, New York. You will find plenty of cows, chickens, goats, ducks, and sheep there but no eggs, milk, or wool for sale because, unlike farmers, rescuers are genuinely concerned with giving these animals a good life.



What are you talking about? Animals eat dead animals all the time. Have you never fed a cat, watched a nature documentary, or been to a fast food restaurant? Some animals EXCLUSIVELY get their nutrients from corpses. If you truly believe that it's unethical NOT to eat "anything that can provide nutritional content to sustain a living being," then in addition to your rescue hen's eggs you should also be eating your dead pets, the placentas and breast milk of every mother you know (human or otherwise), any insects that you should happen to kill (accidentally or otherwise), and a great many other things which I've no doubt strike you as unappetizing and distasteful as chicken's eggs and cow's breast milk should.
Not hypothetical, but you can generalize if you wish.

Also, lots of people don't operate as a business, but still make a few dollars here and there to sustain their hobby/lifestyle. Or, surprise, they give stuff (i.e., eggs, vegetables, fruit) away for free. It's amazing what you can learn and what you can get for free when you have an open mind and befriend people rather than judge immediately.

In the wild, animals typically do not eat dead bodies (unless they are scavengers). They kill and eat immediately. Humans do the same; we kill and process immediately. If someone's cat were to die, if I ate meat, I would not eat it, because it probably wasn't processed right away. Although, a few animals do eat other animals while they are alive. That's just creepy, but that's how they do business.

Also, isn't keeping a cat unethical as it's sole purpose is to satisfy a human's selfish need of companionship?
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#15 Old 08-26-2015, 08:35 AM
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Not hypothetical, but you can generalize if you wish.
You're saying that we're talking about an actual, specific place? Where is it, what's it called, and why can't you answer any of my questions about its practices so that we can determine if it truly is operating in a humane fashion? How did the farm come to assume guardianship over these animals? How can they afford to care for these animals long after their productivity declines? What happens to the male calves and chicks-- are they ALL kept to grow up and live out their entre natural lives on this farm? If so, how big is this farm, exactly? Considering that dairy cows need to be impregnated to produce enough milk for human consumption, how are these cows impregnated? What happens to the calves if the milk is being sold and consumed by humans? These are vitally important questions to ask before you label your eggs or dairy "ethical." You can't very well insist that a perfect, idyllic farm exists where the animals are all kept until they die of natural causes, are not artificially inseminated, are not separated from their families, and live wonderful and full lives without telling us where this farm is and how it manages to perform this miracle of modern agriculture. Otherwise, yes, I will assume that we're discussing the hypothetical possibility of the existence of such a farm.

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Also, lots of people don't operate as a business, but still make a few dollars here and there to sustain their hobby/lifestyle. Or, surprise, they give stuff (i.e., eggs, vegetables, fruit) away for free. It's amazing what you can learn and what you can get for free when you have an open mind and befriend people rather than judge immediately.
The issue isn't the price of the eggs and milk. Are you suggesting that it's morally acceptable to exploit others as long as you aren't making money off it? It's OK to exploit others for pleasure or convenience or kicks? I really don't understand what point you're trying to make here.

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In the wild, animals typically do not eat dead bodies (unless they are scavengers). They kill and eat immediately. Humans do the same; we kill and process immediately. If someone's cat were to die, if I ate meat, I would not eat it, because it probably wasn't processed right away.
Then process it right away. The stance that you've inexplicably decided to take is that it is unethical NOT to eat anything which, if eaten, could impart the nutrients necessary to sustain life. This is your justification for eating eggs (although you still haven't explained why you wouldn't just feed the eggs back to the hens as farm sanctuaries do.) In order to remain logically consistent, you must believe that it is unethical NOT to eat dead animals, placentas, all mammalian breast milk, and all edible insects you happen upon in your travels. You certainly aren't eating raw chicken eggs plucked straight from the hen's cloaca, so I don't know why you assume that you can't wash, boil, cook, and season these other "food" products as well. Go for it. One has to abide by one's morals, don't you agree?

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Also, isn't keeping a cat unethical as it's sole purpose is to satisfy a human's selfish need of companionship?
Is that really what you believe a cat's "sole purpose" is? If so, then yes, I would say it's unethical for you to care for an individual whose life means nothing to you separate from your own desires. Most vegans, at least, who adopt companion animals do so in the best interest of the animals themselves.
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#16 Old 08-26-2015, 08:53 AM
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It's also worth pointing out, again, that even if a perfect dairy or egg farm existed and was located near enough to your home for you to purchase eggs and dairy from this farm, you could ONLY consume the eggs and dairy purchased from this farm. The hypothetical existence of a humane farm in no way justifies the consumption of eggs and dairy in general. Unfortunately, that is precisely what those who use this argument are trying to say: "It's OK to eat eggs and dairy because I can imagine that the eggs and dairy I eat came from a happy farm which it is possible for me to conceive of inside my head but which I have never actually visited." The entire concept of "humane farming" is simply a way to assuage our guilt over consuming animal products. It absolves us of any connection to suffering and death. That's why eggs stamped "free range" sell so well despite the term having essentially no meaning; it SOUNDS good. It FEELS good. It makes us think we're doing something ethical when we're not. It's a scam and a fantasy.
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#17 Old 08-26-2015, 08:59 AM
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And now I remember why I stopped posting on this site way back when--it's too difficult to have a conversation without tempers running wild. Generalizations and stereotypes get turned into facts in discussions, which makes it nearly impossible to discuss.

You know, I used to use the vegan bingo image a lot and show it to people that made off comments about vegetarians and vegans. Now, after around 20 years of being vegetarian, I'm starting to finally understand why people act the way they do towards us. Because we're as closed minded in our beliefs as they are in theirs. They fire off some comment to us, and we return fire.

It must be exhausting to operate in this manner.

Anyways, to the OP, good luck in your transition to vegan. Keep your mind open, and you'll go far.
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#18 Old 08-26-2015, 09:28 AM
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And now I remember why I stopped posting on this site way back when--it's too difficult to have a conversation without tempers running wild. Generalizations and stereotypes get turned into facts in discussions, which makes it nearly impossible to discuss.
I'm perfectly calm and have presented what I believe to be a clear and logical argument. If you disagree, then formulate a clear and logical response. Otherwise I can only assume that you don't have one.

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You know, I used to use the vegan bingo image a lot and show it to people that made off comments about vegetarians and vegans. Now, after around 20 years of being vegetarian, I'm starting to finally understand why people act the way they do towards us. Because we're as closed minded in our beliefs as they are in theirs. They fire off some comment to us, and we return fire.
If by "closed-minded in our beliefs" you mean that vegans are steadfast in asserting that it is unethical to exploit an animal for our profit or pleasure, then thank you for the compliment. This is not an opinion that I take lightly, and I'm frankly confused as to why you would visit a vegan forum armed with the same flimsy arguments one would find on a bingo card in an attempt to justify eating eggs and dairy which we don't need.

Aside from my belief that animal exploitation is unethical, nothing that I've presented here is a matter of opinion. The farming practices I've mentioned are standard and widespread. This can all be easily verified by reading an unbiased account of the workings of animal agriculture.

I'm sorry, but you can't win a debate by inventing a hypothetical farm where, somehow, animals aren't mistreated or exploited for human gain. Even if you wanted to do that as a sort of thought experiment, you would still have to explain in greater detail how this imaginary farm operates. How do you impregnate the cows humanely? How do you care for all the male calves? How do you keep families together? What happens when productivity declines? Then, even if you were to come up with a really convincing imaginary farm which we could all agree is 100% humane, there would still be the glaring issue of it being imaginary. None of it would have any relevance to the real world, it would still be unethical to consume dairy and eggs, and the entire exercise would have proved nothing beyond the scope of your imagination. What's the point? Wouldn't it be easier to simply say that you enjoy consuming dairy and eggs and are ok with ignoring the moral implications for the time being, rather than attempting to justify the unjustifiable?
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#19 Old 08-26-2015, 10:28 AM
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You're saying that we're talking about an actual, specific place?
Correct.

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Where is it, what's it called, and why <snip>
Lots of questions. Don’t expect me to answer them all. I don’t divulge personal information online, especially not of others; however, down the street from me is where this real place is… I don’t know where they got their original chickens, but from discussions, they’ve had chickens in the family for a long time. Until they give me a reason for distrust, I believe them when they say they don’t slaughter the chickens later in life. They’re decent people. They’re humans.

I’ve also traveled lots of rural areas in my state, and I’ve seen similar ‘farms’. To repeat myself, I’ve indicated that they may not be real business, making big bucks, maybe not even a profit, but these places and people do exist.

If you’ve ever visited rural country, you’ll know that there are lots of people that are very kind, very open. You scratch their back, they scratch yours. I guess you’ve never seen the “Fresh Eggs” sign in someone’s front yard. If you did, and you went to them, struck up a real conversation and actually listened to what they were saying, you might just make a friend.

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The issue isn't <snip>
You’ve put words in my mouth. I don’t respond to arguments where one tries to anticipate what I say. It usually doesn’t end well. Case in point, this discussion.

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Then process it <snip>
Again, you’ve put words in my mouth. See my point above. You can extrapolate my statement, but you’re doing it wrong. If you go back to my original statement about eggs, my point was that throwing the egg to a wild animal (and potentially making that animal dependent upon your food), while knowing how that animal was raised, how the egg came to be, and how the life of the animal will end, would be unethical.

I don’t know why you’re stretching my words so far…

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Is that really what you believe a cat's <snip>
Thank you for making my point. If someone cares for a chicken in the best interest of the chicken, they should be able to raise and care for that chicken ethically. I suppose some people love chickens more than cats. I’m not one to judge.

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
It's also worth pointing <snip>
I’ve never said it was perfect (and I’ve never used the term humane farming for this place—that was you), and I’ve never said that it justifies consumption of eggs and dairy in general.

Your words, my mouth. Not fair.

I do agree that saying ‘organic’ or ‘free range’ makes people think they are doing something good for the animal, without actually knowing what that animal is going through. People don’t fact check. This happens all too often.

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I'm perfectly calm <snip>
Personally, I don’t think you’ve present a logical argument, because we’re talking about different things. You see big business, I see local family. My original point, before getting derailed, was that I believe an egg that comes from an animal that is raised ethically should be able to be eaten without feeling poorly of oneself. It’s ethical.

As to the other stuff, please see above. You’ve put words in my mouth, so it’s kind of hard to speak.

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If by "closed-minded <snip>
Such personal attacks. I’ve been a member of this forum for a few years, I’ve mostly poked around, not commenting much, viewing often. Just because I don’t have over a thousand comments doesn’t make my opinion any less important than yours.

You’ve missed my entire point about the vegan card. And yet again, you’ve put words in my mouth. I wasn’t using that as a justification for eating eggs and dairy. I’m confused how you thought that comment was related to eggs and dairy.

What I’m saying is that firing judgmental comments back to people is not the right way to change people’s minds. I applaud you for not taking your beliefs lightly, but you can take them ‘smartly’. Get to them from other aspects. Try to relate to their beliefs, their opinions. If you walk up to someone you don’t know, and start spouting off these comments without even trying to figure out what they’re saying, you won’t get anywhere.

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Aside from my belief <snip>
I am aware of this. You’re providing input based on big business or larger farms. If you continue to ignore my comments that this is a smaller farm/family-owned/probably not a for-profit business, I guess I should repeat it again.

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I'm sorry, but you <snip>
And you can’t win a debate by putting words in my mouth and extrapolating my beliefs.

I bow out at this point, because I can’t converse when my statements are taken out of context and twisted.
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#20 Old 08-26-2015, 10:53 AM
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I think that even if the farm was humane that it isn't necessary to consume cow's milk or eggs. Cow's milk is only produced for baby calves and really isn't meant for humans.
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#21 Old 08-26-2015, 01:10 PM
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I don't know how more clearly I can make this point: the practices I've listed are standard on ALL farms. That goes for small farms, for rural farms, for farms with "Fresh Eggs" signs, for farms run by your friends and neighbours. Dairy cows only produce milk after they've given birth. This is a biological fact about cows. If a human is drinking the milk intended for a calf, this raises some very serious ethical considerations-- namely, how did the cow get pregnant and what happened to the calf? When I asked how this farm acquired their chickens, I asked for a very important reason: male chicks from hatcheries are culled. That means slaughtered. If chickens have been "in the family" for generations, that means they're breeding them. Half of all chicks are male, and male chicks don't lay eggs-- so what happens to all the male chicks? These aren't throw away questions. They are absolutely vital to your argument that these eggs and dairy products are produced ethically (which is a word you specifically used, by the way, and which is a synonym for "humane.") Saying that the rural folks you personally know are really, really friendly and that you like and trust them a whole lot means absolutely nothing when we're discussing the treatment of these animals. No matter how "nice" these people are, they are exploiting and abusing animals for their own pleasure or profit-- and you're defending it.

Once again, people who genuinely have the best interests of an animal in mind do not breed that animal, do not forcibly impregnate that animal, do not steal that animal's bodily secretions for money or fun. Farm sanctuaries are examples of organisations which accept that cows, chickens, sheep, pigs, and other traditional farm animals exist on their own terms rather than for human use. It isn't a revolutionary concept. If you wouldn't do it to a vulnerable human living under your care, it isn't right to do it to an animal.
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#22 Old 08-27-2015, 10:13 AM
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This is what I'm wondering. I am still learning and reading, and I want to know a couple things:



1. Do these types of places even exist? (open, free-range, happy animals not killed when they're too old to produce)

2. If they do exist, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume these dairy/egg products?

3. Out on a limb, but lets say I get myself a chicken that I love and care for like I would a dog or child, and it lays eggs, is it ethical and/or healthy to consume those eggs?

In my view, yes for 3.
2. not ethical but possibly healthy
1. I don't think so. They'd be losing money or the produce needs to be super expensive.
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#23 Old 08-27-2015, 12:15 PM
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Humans are 'commodified' on a daily basis. I am right now. I work for my company. I get exploited--my company charges me to a client at 3 to 4 times what I make an hour. I don't make nearly as much as I consider myself to be worth. But, that's life.

Admittedly, yes, these places probably do not operate as a business and probably do not make a profit. But, to outright dismiss them isn't good. They're trying to do what they love, give the animals a good life, and possibly make a few dollars here and there. Why discourage them?

As far as considering an egg food, anything that can provide nutritional content to sustain a living being is food. Some animals eat other animal's eggs all the time. Sorry, but your comparison between an egg and a dead animal is misguided. An egg can provide nutritional content to most living beings, while a corpse can carry lots of bacteria and toxins that are not fit to eat by most animals.
Eggs can be laid with salmonella inside of them! They are no more safe than dead flesh.
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#24 Old 08-27-2015, 12:26 PM
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Eggs can be laid with salmonella inside of them! They are no more safe than dead flesh.
And birds can poop on lettuce. The reason 'dead flesh' and eggs are cooked is to kill said microorganisms. And lettuce is washed, because, well, I don't want bird poop on my lettuce.
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#25 Old 08-27-2015, 02:10 PM
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And birds can poop on lettuce. The reason 'dead flesh' and eggs are cooked is to kill said microorganisms. And lettuce is washed, because, well, I don't want bird poop on my lettuce.
I think what @LedBoots is saying is that your reasoning for eating eggs but not dead bodies (that the latter contains dangerous toxins) is flawed, because both eggs and dead bodies are commonly consumed and both are capable of causing harm to humans if not properly cooked.
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#26 Old 08-27-2015, 03:06 PM
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This is wrong, IMO. There are some smaller places that actually do have chickens/other animals as pets. They have names, they don’t ‘slaughter’ them. They utilize the eggs for food. This may not make much financial sense as a business (and it’s very possible they’re not doing it for profit), but it shouldn’t be overlooked or dismissed outright. They might not be classified as farms, but they do exist. They’re hard to find, though.
.
Nah it's still unethical - the eggs and milk should be left alone, full stop. It's not ours to take. Also a lot of people have chickens as "pets" in the hope that they will get free eggs, which means that at the end of the day these animals are being used for what they produce from their body - they are still treated as commodities rather than living beings. It doesn't matter that they're not being slaughtered. What matters is that an animal is being used for a human desires and greed. We do not need the eggs or milk, ever.
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#27 Old 08-27-2015, 03:12 PM
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there seems to have been a slightly heated discussion on this thread :P

i don't really know why when it's all pretty simple - leave the chickens and cows alone IF you don't need their milk and eggs to survive. End of story. Goodbye.
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#28 Old 08-27-2015, 03:47 PM
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Farming animals is the practice of exploiting/abusing their biological processes, and biology works the same way locally, nationally or internationally.
Farmers are essentially breeders, yet they don't have exponentially increasing numbers of the animals they farm because they have them killed when their productivity drops (due to age, which is a relative term for farmed animals, infertility, disease, etc). The "productivity window" for all farmed animals is very small compared to their natural lifespan, so purely from a financial point of view where are these small local farms going to get the money from to fund the animals' unproductive years which could amount to ten or twenty years?! They would have to raise money to pay into some kind of pension fund. Where are the local retirement homes for all these local animals? They obviously don't exist.
You often hear people say things like they are against high intensity (factory) farming and that small local farms are "better" (again, a relative term), but the simple fact is that they are all supplying a demand. The higher the overall demand, the more factory farms will be needed to meet that demand, or else the smaller local farms would have to expand and become factory farms themselves, so it's all bad news for the animals.
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#29 Old 08-27-2015, 04:50 PM
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And birds can poop on lettuce. The reason 'dead flesh' and eggs are cooked is to kill said microorganisms. And lettuce is washed, because, well, I don't want bird poop on my lettuce.
I think what @LedBoots is saying is that your reasoning for eating eggs but not dead bodies (that the latter contains dangerous toxins) is flawed, because both eggs and dead bodies are commonly consumed and both are capable of causing harm to humans if not properly cooked.
Cooking will kill bacteria, but will not remove the toxins that may be present in a decaying animal carcass.
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#30 Old 08-27-2015, 04:53 PM
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And now I remember why I stopped posting on this site way back when--it's too difficult to have a conversation without tempers running wild. Generalizations and stereotypes get turned into facts in discussions, which makes it nearly impossible to discuss.

You know, I used to use the vegan bingo image a lot and show it to people that made off comments about vegetarians and vegans. Now, after around 20 years of being vegetarian, I'm starting to finally understand why people act the way they do towards us. Because we're as closed minded in our beliefs as they are in theirs. They fire off some comment to us, and we return fire.

It must be exhausting to operate in this manner.

Anyways, to the OP, good luck in your transition to vegan. Keep your mind open, and you'll go far.
Actually, I think both sides in this thread have been rather calm (at least compared to some other message boards I've been on- but then, that's not saying much. A number of them appeared to serve primarily as places for people to vent and flame each other.)

If someone could accept that using an animal- e.g., using/commodifying their bodily output- was not inherently disrespectful to that animal, than theoretically this could work. But I think No Whey Jose's comment at 11:53 yesterday is spot-on, and illustrates why vegans often so quickly dismiss arguments like those presented in this thread:

Quote:
It's also worth pointing out, again, that even if a perfect dairy or egg farm existed and was located near enough to your home for you to purchase eggs and dairy from this farm, you could ONLY consume the eggs and dairy purchased from this farm. The hypothetical existence of a humane farm in no way justifies the consumption of eggs and dairy in general. Unfortunately, that is precisely what those who use this argument are trying to say:....
Even if such farms exist- and I suppose they do- how relevant is this to the animal-welfare issues with milk or eggs in general, since such farms are only a VERY small minority, at best?
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Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
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