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Is Veganism Exclusive an Elitist?

4K views 31 replies 18 participants last post by  Joan Kennedy 
#1 ·
have any of you found your journey to veganism/vegetarianism had been met with any hostility or just rudeness?

i find that unfortunately many of my fellow vegans (not you guys!) ;) are hostile to non-veggies. this doesn't seem like the best way to help people go veg (or much help to the animals or environment!)

i think ANYONE can be vegan. but i've seen veggies exclude conservatives, religious individuals, republicans, etc.

i'm curious as to other's experiences. i was so frustrated about some vegans' treatment of the veg-curious that i made a vid on
 
#2 ·
I get the idea, but doesn't it also sound kind of elitist to pull baristas in specific tees out as a problem?

I've met "crunchy" vegans who are judgmental but also non-crunchy who are and meat eaters who are and so on and so on.

I've found that being accepting is less about style and more about attitude. I DO totally get the vegan police sentiment (not a fan) but it's hard to apply it to a specific group.
 
#3 ·
I get the idea, but doesn't it also sound kind of elitist to pull baristas in specific tees out as a problem?

I've met "crunchy" vegans who are judgmental but also non-crunchy who are and meat eaters who are and so on and so on.

I've found that being accepting is less about style and more about attitude. I DO totally get the vegan police sentiment (not a fan) but it's hard to apply it to a specific group.
definitely agree Jennifer. and the barista example was tongue-in-cheek. i love many a crunchy vegan. just playfully pointing out stereotypes in an effort to move past them.

and yes, the vegan police are a bit much, no? ;)
 
#5 ·
yep yep…it's the same with any group…vegans, christians, etc… the loudest ones are usually the rude ones and they give the whole group a bad name.

now do i *think* rude things about non-vegans from time to time? certainly…but that's another matter.

and i'm sure you are a superb vegan barista, Jordy ;)
 
#6 ·
Does the vegan community really have to be totally perfect before we're deemed socially acceptable?
Douchery has no barriers. It effects every group.
Stereotypes also abound. They're there because they stand out, but no reason to believe them.

I do listen to a local conservative talk radio program that definitely makes a point of lumping vegans with liberal democrats.

We used to have more hard core conservative republicans than we do now.
 
#10 ·
I've never had that problem. Most people just shrug and say that's cool. No one's given me any slack about my veganism at all. *shrug*
 
#28 ·
I would agree to a point, tho my vegan friends are not at all judgemental. I follow a primarily plant based diet myself, but am not exclusively vegan, tho it's certainly a goal.

The intolerance I have a problem with is carnivores. Some feel very threatened by being vegetarian or vegan. I've experinced this for the 40 years I've been vegetarian.
What's especially maddening is that I'm continually asked if I eat fish and chicken. Many times it's the same people who ask me this time and again. Or I'll be invited to eat with ppl, and there ends up being little I can eat...except salad. I guess we vegans/ vegetarians are thought to subsist on 'rabbit food'.

Honestly, it's tiresome beyond belief. I truly don't care if ppl eat flesh; why should they care what I eat?

As well, please have respect and consideration for vegetarians/vegans. Have fare available that we can eat. Not just rabbit food.

On the other side of the coin, I've been aware of intolerance vis a vis some vegans. I get the impression that there's a 'hipster/cool' factor involved. Holier than thou comes to mind as well. And don't get me started on the earthy crunchy neo hippie factor. Yuk.
 
#16 ·
I am under the impression the OP is talking about vegans treating other vegans disrespectfully or harshly, especially new vegans? Or that someone can't be vegan because they believe in something that doesn't align with another vegan?

I haven't experienced too much of this, just a few incidences. One has to do with having a dog that is fed an omnivore diet, not vegan. Our dog was six years old when I went vegan. My husband is still an omnivore and will not even consider the idea of feeding a dog a vegan diet. He has probably invested more into our dog than I have as he has more time to. Our dog has a very sensitive and touchy stomach and is on a very specific diet due to this. It would have been hard to transition her over for these reasons. I was told that this was not vegan and I am essentially supporting the meat industry as much as if I were eating meat myself. I have seen this black and white thinking before and it is unhelpful.

I have also seen people get ganged up on on other vegan forums for beliefs such as being against abortion or being Christian. They were told this does not align with being vegan. Stuff like that.

Other situations involve style of vegan diet. I see a lot of vegans shame other vegans because their diet is not 100% organic whole food etc, or isn't all fruitarian and raw, or whatever other style of eating is supposed to be the right way. The thing is, everyone comes to veganism on a different path and is at a different point in their lives. we should all be encouraging and praising each other for the efforts we are already making to live a life that is more compassionate, healthful, and sustainable towards our earth and animals. There is always room for improvement, growth, etc but we are all doing the best we can right now too, you know?
 
#17 ·
I am under the impression the OP is talking about vegans treating other vegans disrespectfully or harshly, especially new vegans? Or that someone can't be vegan because they believe in something that doesn't align with another vegan?

I haven't experienced too much of this, just a few incidences. One has to do with having a dog that is fed an omnivore diet, not vegan. Our dog was six years old when I went vegan. My husband is still an omnivore and will not even consider the idea of feeding a dog a vegan diet. He has probably invested more into our dog than I have as he has more time to. Our dog has a very sensitive and touchy stomach and is on a very specific diet due to this. It would have been hard to transition her over for these reasons. I was told that this was not vegan and I am essentially supporting the meat industry as much as if I were eating meat myself. I have seen this black and white thinking before and it is unhelpful.

I have also seen people get ganged up on on other vegan forums for beliefs such as being against abortion or being Christian. They were told this does not align with being vegan. Stuff like that.

Other situations involve style of vegan diet. I see a lot of vegans shame other vegans because their diet is not 100% organic whole food etc, or isn't all fruitarian and raw, or whatever other style of eating is supposed to be the right way. The thing is, everyone comes to veganism on a different path and is at a different point in their lives. we should all be encouraging and praising each other for the efforts we are already making to live a life that is more compassionate, healthful, and sustainable towards our earth and animals. There is always room for improvement, growth, etc but we are all doing the best we can right now too, you know?
yep, i'm talking about vegans being rude/exclusive to non-vegans, the vegan-curious, or new vegans.

i have a vegan friend who is very conservative politically and he gets **** all the time from other vegans about his beliefs. he was actually the inspiration for the video.

yes the there is the whole "vegan purity" thing of certain vegan diets being "superior" to others. imho veganism in any form is awesome :)
 
#20 ·
I think the general public has to meet a lot of nice, caring and non-judgmental vegans to make up for the ones that are militant, rude and judgmental. Give it time. In every group there are dicks who make it hard for the rest.

My philosophy is to praise everything anyone is doing to move to a place of less animal cruelty. if you ate a meatless meal on Monday I will applaud you. If you read an article about animal welfare and found it interesting I will say well done.

No need to classify people into categories to show how much they care about animals. To me, any awareness anywhere, any enlightenment is moving towards the goal.

Now how did I come by this philosophy?

I was in a veggie restaurant with friends. One of them said that she was vegan. Her partner is, she is not. So I said " Tanya, you are so NOT vegan. I saw you eating whipped cream at the fair and you always have cheese at work functions.|

While I was accurate I just burst her bubble. She was seeing herself as vegan (which she was not), but hell, she was trying. It wasn't my place to destroy her intention. I took a long hard look at what I said and changed my mind on the spot.

So I took up the role of cheerleader and i really hope that makes me one of those vegans who is not obnoxious.
 
#21 ·
Slightly different perspective: I have been what I call a strict vegetarian (not Vegan) for... probably 15 years now; I am paranoid about avoiding dairy due to allergies, and I eat a tiny bit of egg - about every 6 months when I see samples of dairy-free, but egg-bearing, muffins in Whole Foods, and I also eat some honey. I do it for health reasons. (wiping sweat from brow- there, I said it!!!) I was extremely sick at one time and could not even work, changing my diet literally made me a normal person and sealed my dedication to this way of eating.

When I began on this journey, I did a lot of research, and wondered if the word "Vegan" really applied to me, and I decided it just didn't feel right, for a variety of reasons. I did not feel good calling myself Vegan when I knew in my heart that I was not and likely never would be, I felt it was disrespectful to those who did work hard to stick to the lifestyle, so I have never called myself Vegan - and never really worried about it either.

When I moved in 2000 to take a job in another state and got involved in the veg community, I was shocked at the amount of "attitude" the Vegans would give non-Vegans... as well as any person that was not the right religion or political persuasion, did not donate money to animal rights groups, turn up for fur protests, volunteer enough (and by the way volunteers were usually crapped on by organizers), adopt enough stray animals, own a digital camera or sign the petition du jour (which was usually VERY poorly thought-out). And some of this was directed at me. I held my tongue as long as I could for like 4 years until an incident occurred that I just couldn't stomach, and overnight I gave up ALL my involvement in these groups. I finally realized I was never really going to be good enough to hang around with the cook kids, so I took my interests, time, effort, energy, kick-*** cake recipe and pretty smile elsewhere. I still go to an event now and then, but I have yet to find any good reason to get involved the way I once was. The only group I still support is my church's vegetarian dinner club - I'm on the steering committee and we have worked really hard to keep the garbage out - our group is mostly omnis who just like to try new and interesting food!! And we love them for it - boy have I got stories!!!

I can tell you that these attitude issues have really harmed the local vegetarian/vegan/animal rights community. I've watched several once-robust organizations get destroyed by in-fighting, including at least one feud that has gone on for over 20 years. The casual followers that could once be counted on to show up at every big event and even cough up a few bucks at fundraisers are sick of the drama, so they take their money and their hummus elsewhere.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the novel, but I appreciate the chance to vent and get that off my chest.
 
#24 ·
Today some person from the internet I've never met before told me I'm not vegan enough because when I eat out, I don't only go to all-vegan restaurants for fear of cross-contamination. The closest one is three counties away. I probably engaged that troll-egan more than was good for my mental health.

Point is, you gotta do you. Do the most important things first (for me, eliminating obvious amounts of meat, dairy, eggs, and honey, and eating more whole foods in general) and as you have time and energy, do the smaller things. Refraining from eating a gooey mess of a grilled cheese sandwich avoids far more harm than refraining from eating a grilled avocado sandwich with a sauce containing a small amount of sugar run through a bone char. Or eating nothing and passing out because you weren't sure if the only PBJ available had mono & diglicyrides. (IV fluids are rarely vegan. I'd eat the PBJ.)
 
#25 ·
I agree that Vegan extremists are just as bad as Christian extremists, but there is an important difference. Vegans make up no more than 3% of the population, wheras Christian make up a much larger percentage. As such, they can "afford" to have jerks in their ranks, whereas we can not.
 
#27 ·
Wish I could join this debate but I've no idea what the agreed definition of a "vegan extremist" is. I still think that veganism is more than a diet and for all I know, that notion could put me in the "vegan extremist camp", in the eyes of some?

lv
i don't know where "extremist" came in..i originally was talking about "elitists." those who think you have to be a certain way/religion/political leaning, etc in order to be welcomed into the vegan flock…

and i too think it's way more than a diet…at least it is for me! for some it may start out as one but i think it grows from there.
 
#29 ·
I had a close friend, whose journey into veganism I followed first-hand. Today, she is somewhat militant in her views and actions - loudly espousing her belief that all meat-eaters should be killed, shouting "murderer!" after random people eating a hot dog in the street, and all-round being very hostile. It irks me to this day (we're not that close anymore), because I think it's people like her who are the reason that veg*ns have such a hard time getting understood and accepted in society at large. What's even more ironic is that she works as a facer in an animal rights organization - talk about being counter-productive...

When I myself went vegetarian, I was attacked on one side for being "extreme" and weird in cutting out meat, while at the same time being attacked by vegans for "not doing enough", and being responsible for the suffering of countless cows and chickens. The same happened to my ex-girlfriend. In some ways, I find that vegetarians often get caught in the crossfire between two extremist views (*) that utterly refuse to take each other seriously, and as long as either side continue labeling each other with derogatory terms and refuse to argue like proper adults, I foresee a long, hard road ahead for the general acceptance of veggies worldwide...

(*) I'm not saying all vegans or meat-eaters are extremist. I'm talking about the very outspoken activists that I tend to label "militant vegans" and "baconists", respectively.

...going completely off-topic for a moment: I've recently started reading J.S. Mill's "The Subjection of Women" and found that a great lot of the arguments and thoughts he makes (at least in the first chapter) are highly relevant to the animal rights debate going on now. I'm not comparing situations or anything, but it's still a great book!
 
#31 ·
"I welcome all people who give up meat, whether hipsters (who I find adorable), holier-than-thou (usually new young bright-eyed vegans who quickly learn they can't change everyone, also adorable) and crunchy hippies, in which camp which you would probably place me. "

Adorable? *rolls eyes* Eh well, we all have our prejudices, lol.

Indeed, I do generally bring my own food to gatherings...IF I think there will be a dearth of fare that I can eat. However,I was caught up short when I was told that there would be a vegetarian option for me at a recent luncheon and there wasn't. Thank goodness that the snax served before the meal filled me up enough; otherwise I would have been pretty hungry.( if I were fully vegan, I would have had nothing to eat, however, except a few strAwberries)
Continuing in the douche bag vein: a woman whom I knew to be a vegan could be a said douche bag. When I'd mentioned that I ate a primarily vegan diet with some exceptions, she carped at me' well, you're not a vegan if you eat dairy, etc, even small amounts.' Duh. I contended that I never said I was vegan, tho that is my goal. Alas, I've not been successful. Perhaps some day.
 
#32 · (Edited)
An exclusive outfit is like a club where the current members vote in the new members, like the Norfolk Yacht Club. Even if you have the very high entry fee and the very high membership monthly fees, they still have to vote you in, and if even one member blackballs you, you're out of luck. Or the Daughters of the American Revolution, where membership depends on things your greatx6 grandfather did, not on what you did. It's exclusive if your membership depends on others, rather than on yourself, and if it works harder to keep people out than to let people in.

Elitist means overvaluing those who have nabbed a position at the top of the top, often with an awful lot of help. Like a law firm who won't hire candidates unless they graduated from Ivy League colleges and law schools. You can't get into an Ivy League school unless your SATs are through the stratosphere, no matter how high your grades are. Meaning that more people who make it lucked their way in than earned their way in. High SAT scores depend on high vocabularies, and our vocabularies are mostly determined by the literacy levels of our parents and teachers. Ivy League exceptions are made for top athletes and children of alumni, and very few others. That's elitist.

When people call veganism elitist or exclusive, it reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld where George remarks enviously, "I'd love to be a Civil War buff." Sounds like this thread is less about being vegan than about being a vegan who also has a hard-core militant streak, or about throwing your weight around if you find yourself in a power position for once instead of stuck in an isolated, marginalized vegan wilderness.

Hard-core militant types will act out their passions in whatever social or political or religious grouping they put themselves (militia-movement gun-toters, ultra-Orthodox Jews, Opus Dei Catholics, Marxists, Fascists, Jihadists, ban-all-religion atheists). I don't love the way hard-core vegan activists make people feel about all vegans and vegetarians. But the hard core are trying to make people give a crap about animals in a way most of us aren't: yelling to make up for the fact that the rest of us barely whisper. It's a real challenge to find the sweet spot, to own our choices and be open and upfront with our reasons for making them, without communicating scorn and superiority over those who disagree. And without getting mean online when we see them saying misinformed things. It's hard enough to make myself care about something when caring means giving up things I enjoy. It's a hundred times harder than that to make anyone else care. The loud fringe vegans haven't given up on that, and I respect them for it, even if they disrespect me for not climbing into the trenches with them. Yes, I'd love it if these guys would leave vegetarians and sugar-eating vegans alone and concentrate on the animal torturers. But I get why they don't. The closer to their position you already are, the more likely you are to eventually come around.
 
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