When narky vegans grow up, they hopefully become more humanitarian - Page 4 - VeggieBoards
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#91 Old 07-08-2007, 07:40 AM
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Bof says "I do think that vegetarians need to be told of the suffering caused by the egg and dairy industry"



OK. But by saying "suffering is caused by the egg and dairy industry" not by saying "you have blood on your hands you low-life."
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#92 Old 07-08-2007, 07:50 AM
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Soilman: I don't think that insisting on the suffering of animals is necessarily a good thing for animal rights. For animal welfare, it's great, but it does little for the status of animals as property.
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#93 Old 07-08-2007, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Diana View Post

You should hear what they say about me on [some other site] (including Gaya)!!! (and also about other members of VeggieBoards).



Awww... They're not accepting new registrations. The name's pretty funny, I wish I could see what they're saying.
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#94 Old 07-08-2007, 07:54 AM
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Recent example of what Tame said about me there: "Wow. Someone posts their wife has breast cancer, and Diana chimes in to tell her to go vegan.

Seriously, it takes a special kind of bat **** crazy to be like that. She has simply outlived her usefulness as a human being."



That's a typical GB post on their regular threads about VeggieBoards (they have these threads devoted just to bitching about stuff that goes on here). Actually, it's not really so typical, as many of the posts are way more insulting than that. I would give this one a rating of 5 on a scale of 10.



(It is evident that nutrition has a great deal to do with health, and that there is sufficient evidence that animal proteins are not helpful to healing.)



I could quote other stuff they say about other members here, but I reckon some people could be very hurt and even upset and so I will not.
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#95 Old 07-08-2007, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Diana View Post

Radical extremism is by the way, kickpell (I know your pseudo is kpickell, but for some reason I always read it "kickpell"), also part of some people's nature. Your little barb is quite pathetic. But then, I have never held a very high opinion of you and your wishy-washiness.

That's true, and it's problematic. The irony is that people who have a tendency to jump from one extreme to another extreme position and berate everyone else, tend to be the most wishy-washy of all because they're just drawn towards extremism rather than having real reasons for their beliefs. In 5 years they'd probably drop vegetarianism and join some other extremist movement. For them it's not about saving animals, it's about the thrill of being an extremists. It's their nature.
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#96 Old 07-08-2007, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by kpickell View Post

That's true, and it's problematic. The irony is that people who have a tendency to jump from one extreme to another extreme position and berate everyone else, tend to be the most wishy-washy of all because they're just drawn towards extremism rather than having real reasons for their beliefs. In 5 years they'd probably drop vegetarianism and join some other extremist movement. For them it's not about saving animals, it's about the thrill of being an extremists. It's their nature.

I think your own position is extremist.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#97 Old 07-08-2007, 09:10 AM
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I think your own position is extremist.

What position?
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#98 Old 07-08-2007, 09:13 AM
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The pro-animal-exploitation position.



The word 'extremism' is problematic because we could take any view whatsoever, and then take people whose own view would differ enough from it, and the latter people would find the former view 'extremist'.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#99 Old 07-08-2007, 09:23 AM
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I don't have a pro-animal-exploitation position.



But there's a rather big difference between someone with a personal opinion and someone with a personal agenda. Nobody cares about an extremist religious fanatic until they start trying to convert everyone else to their agenda.
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#100 Old 07-08-2007, 09:26 AM
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Don't you think that anyone who wants to be an active participant to a political movement -- the AR movement in this case -- will have an "agenda"?



But anyway, my last posts are a bit hypothetical since I've already said earlier that I don't think slogans like "when vegetarians grow up.." are helpful.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#101 Old 07-08-2007, 09:30 AM
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As I posted on the other thread:



Quote:
Vegetarians don't lead an easy life. Until a short time ago mocked by meat eaters, here again trouble, this time from the other side: Criticism from vegans, who not only refuse meat, but also dairy products, eggs and leather for moral reasons. To that, at once, two theses at the beginning, to illustrate the problems and the explosive effect of the question "Vegetarian or Vegan?":



Criticism of vegans towards vegetarians in terms of ethics and facts is completely right.



Criticism of vegans towards vegetarians in terms of policy and strategy is completely wrong.



[...]



People should read this:

http://www.european-vegetarian.org/e...s95/veg_n.html
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#102 Old 07-08-2007, 09:31 AM
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So I'm confused why you do the later, Isabelle and personally insult people so often. I find your posts on the more offensive side. /just sayin.
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#103 Old 07-08-2007, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Isabelle View Post

As I posted on the other thread:







People should read this:

http://www.european-vegetarian.org/e...s95/veg_n.html



"Server Error 404 - page does not exist (so far)!"

Now that's informative.
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#104 Old 07-08-2007, 09:37 AM
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From the above article:

Quote:
To vegetarianism you can guide people, to veganism they have to get themselves. The step to veganism takes place silently, in private. Nevertheless, in general only under one condition: if people are motivated to dispense with the exploitation of animals due to ethical reasons. The sensitiveness for this you get nearly always from an ethically-founded vegetarianism. That's why it is so important to guide people to the ethical vegetarianism. Everything else that further happens, if it does, happens by itself.

The point here seems to be that the so-called moral baseline of the movement should be (lacto-ovo)vegetarianism, not veganism. I think one thing that Gary Francione has convincingly argued is that this way of thinking is quite destructive, because it ends up (tacitly/implicitly) framing veganism as something difficult and something optional. Can we expect veganism to ever become more mainstream if in its own advocacy the movement dances around the concept like it was something extreme?

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#105 Old 07-08-2007, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Vegan Joe View Post

"Server Error 404 - page does not exist (so far)!"

Now that's informative.



What the hell? Works for me:



Quote:
Vegetarians don't lead an easy life. Until a short time ago mocked by meat eaters, here again trouble, this time from the other side: Criticism from vegans, who not only refuse meat, but also dairy products, eggs and leather for moral reasons. To that, at once, two theses at the beginning, to illustrate the problems and the explosive effect of the question "Vegetarian or Vegan?":



Criticism of vegans towards vegetarians in terms of ethics and facts is completely right.



Criticism of vegans towards vegetarians in terms of policy and strategy is completely wrong.



As always, when it comes down to emotionally charged and objectively many-sided discussions, here, too, it is recommendable to look at the facts first in a dispassionate way:



Every commercial "use" of animals, and also those in dairy, egg and leather industry, stands for "exploitation" - since competition, economic thinking and aiming at profit automatically lead to the exploition of animals. In addition to this dairy, egg and leather industry are so firmly multi-sided and undetachably connected to meat-industry, that every consumption, or every usage of dairy products, eggs and leather stimulates meat-industry at the same time.



Three illustrating examples: calves of milk cows, find themselves immediately at the butcher's, supposing they are not female and will be conveyed to the painful milk production. The little ones of hen, if male and not gassed, drowned or thrown in a meat mincer, end up as chicken. The sale of leather raises the profit margin of meat producers.



On the other hand, it is completely out of place to lump vegetarians and meat eaters together, as it is not seldom practiced, so as to say: "Who eats cheese can likewise eat meat!" Obviously, carnivores cause more damage: because they do not only, like vegetarians, directly exploit animals as milk and cheese suppliers and thus indirectly support meat industry, but furthermore promote meat industry directly. The meat eater, who is usually also milk, egg and leather consumer, to cut a long story short, has caused many more dead animals than a vegetarian.



Another fact to take into account when discussing the question "Vegetarian or Vegan?" is this one: becoming a vegan is not a thing to do in one step. On the contrary it is common to be vegetarian before turning from meateater to vegan. Just because of this, it would be foolish to damn vegetarianism, actually the first stage to veganism.



In addition to this: for vegetarianism, one may and should advertise frankly and in public. Here, "persuasive work" makes sense and is necessary, because ethical and practical reasons for abstention from meat can not only rationally be made plausible, but also in view of life-style; to replace sausage rolls with cheese rolls and meat sauce with herb sauce - this is easy to be imagined. But to abstain from "everything" in one step, asks too much imagination (not the least because of insufficient information) and provokes fear, anger - and above all - escape: "Well, then I'll just do like I've done up to now, I'll eat anything I desire!"



To vegetarianism you can guide people, to veganism they have to get themselves. The step to veganism takes place silently, in private. Nevertheless, in general only under one condition: if people are motivated to dispense with the exploitation of animals due to ethical reasons. The sensitiveness for this you get nearly always from an ethically-founded vegetarianism. That's why it is so important to guide people to the ethical vegetarianism. Everything else that further happens, if it does, happens by itself.



Condemnation of vegetarians does not make vegans, but prevents vegetarians. Condemnation of vegetarianism is of no use, but immense damage. Important is, as said before, a moral motivation.



That's why those who have the honest intention to abstain from meat, those, who have already arrived at the vegan end, and all the "in-betweens" have to pull together - instead of marking out each other and thus harm the animals.



If the conflict between vegetarians and vegans were not a reality, it would probably be invented by advertising men of the meat industry - and would be a brilliant idea. There's no bigger pleasure for carnivores than non-carnivores arguing among themselves!



Dr. Helmut F. Kaplan, born 1952, is philosopher, author and teaching at the University of Salzburg. He published several books: "Philosophie des Vegetarismus" (1988), "Warum Vegetarier?" (1989), "Sind wir Kannibalen?" (1991), "Leichenschmaus" (1993) and "Warum ich Vegetarier bin" (1995).

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#106 Old 07-08-2007, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Isabelle View Post

People should read this:

http://www.european-vegetarian.org/e...s95/veg_n.html

The link got mangled with the ellipses. For those that have trouble the actual link is:

http://www.european-vegetarian.org/e...s95/veg_n.html
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#107 Old 07-08-2007, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Isabelle View Post

What the hell? Works for me:

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#108 Old 07-08-2007, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Vegan Joe View Post




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#109 Old 07-08-2007, 10:07 AM
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Only in your dreams.
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#110 Old 07-08-2007, 10:11 AM
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Guys, you should check the other thread again if you haven't already. Seems like the OP is going vegan afterall.
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#111 Old 07-08-2007, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Diana View Post

Oh, it's human nature to want to bitch about someone. It's childish, but very common.



You don't think that you're having a bitch right now about vegetarians? You're hostile attitude towards the vegetarians certainly comes across that way.



Quote:
And it is a useful tactic for the vegetarians so that they do not have to question their unethical lifestyles. Blame someone else, like: "it's people like you, Diana, who prevent us from becoming vegan". It would be funny if it weren't pathetic.



It's not that you prevent vegetarians becoming vegan, but your attitude is hardly inspiring, especially when I'm facing other issues that are making it hard for me to return to veganism. Angry, hostile people are a turn off basically and I don't want to emulate them. I don't think that's a hard point for you to understand.



You're the face of veganism whether you like it or not so the least you can do is be a positive example. If you want people to do something good, show them a good example. You've bragged about recruiting a few people to veganism now and then with the approach you have now, but I think you'd get quite a few more if you just mellowed out a bit.





Quote:
Originally Posted by beatricious View Post

This thread is frustrating to me because instead of addressing the extremely valid points Diana makes about the unspeakable cruelty in the dairy and egg industries, people are incessantly whining about her tone.



You can call it whining if you want to, I call it a legitimate opinion about Diana's hostile intolerance of vegetarians.

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#112 Old 07-08-2007, 10:26 AM
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What do humanitarians eat?

I believe everything.
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#113 Old 07-08-2007, 10:26 AM
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pixelle: You may not like my attitude. I quite frankly couldn't care less.



I have in the last year, as already mentioned, "converted" a number of people to go vegan in my immediate surroundings, and I know I will continue doing so. I did not "brag" about doing this. I was stating a fact.



As to bitching, I do not think I have mentioned any person by name (except kickpell in this thread or the other one, but that was because he/she (am never clear about the sex of people on these boards) made a pathetic barb at me.



I am one person. If people don't like what I say, they do not have to listen to me. For god's sake... it's easy to make the choice as to whom to listen to and to whom not. I am not here to be popular, but to be sincere with my convictions.



And I have said it LOADS of times, that it is the Vegan Police type, the "loud, militant" vegans that helped ME along my journey, because they didn't beat about the bush and didn't try to stroke my ego.



I like straight talk. Others like wishy-washy talk. To each his/her own.
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#114 Old 07-08-2007, 10:30 AM
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I like straight talk.



You didn't like mine much did you

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#115 Old 07-08-2007, 10:33 AM
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I don't care much what you say.. And yours was not straight talk anyway. It distorted some of what I had been saying. Distortion is not straight talk.



But no-one is perfect. Not you, not me, nobody. We are all just living, as best as we can, (hopefully), according to our values and principles.
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#116 Old 07-08-2007, 10:45 AM
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But no-one is perfect. Not you, not me, nobody. We are all just living, as best as we can, (hopefully), according to our values and principles.



Then why are you hassling vegetarians then if you accept that we're not perfect?

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#117 Old 07-08-2007, 10:46 AM
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So, every one is welcome in your parade.



How would you feel if a "die hard vegan" in your parade decides that in the global fight for a better vegan world, it's ok to break the window of a McDonalds your parade is passing?



Good post... At first, I thought you were dissing my parade. While, overall, I would feel that the vegan was doing a good thing for the world by abstaining from animal products to the best of their ability, I would not appreciate such a bad ending to my parade. It would make all of us look bad, and I would rather not have the law enforcement situation you told me about ensue. It almost surely would, though.



I do run a Vegetarian and Vegan group here in Albuquerque with a policy inspired by VB. You can come as long as you're at least interested in vegetarianism. Only vegetarian and vegan food is allowed and no, this does not include fish, chicken, etc. Mostly vegetarians and vegans attend, though I often bring along some of my omni friends for the events. I feel that this gives us all a sense of community so that we can persevere in our goals, and I feel that this group brings about awareness for both omnis and veg*ns on the presence of (other) veg*ns and what they are like.
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#118 Old 07-08-2007, 10:50 AM
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Is it okay to be narky to narky vegans?

I believe everything.
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#119 Old 07-08-2007, 10:51 AM
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Then why are you hassling vegetarians then if you accept that we're not perfect?



I reckon if you read through my posts in this thread and the other one, you will figure out why I do not appreciate the old-time vegetarians. Do I really have to repeat it???



Oh, and about the parades... I think the only decent McDonalds window is a broken one.
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#120 Old 07-08-2007, 10:51 AM
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Is it okay to be narky to narky vegans?



Do you think anyone's been narky to them in this thread?

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