Why can't we all just get along? - Page 5 - VeggieBoards
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#121 Old 07-20-2013, 06:59 AM
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Where was Siv making that assumption? The message I got was that because you (and I'm sure that many other veg*ns) have been affected by watching Earthlings, we shouldn't assume that it's going to be equally impactful on the mass of omnis who are exposed to it.  

 

Sorry, it's a really bad habit that I acquired while I was in debate, which is more rhetoric than honest argumentation. Though, in my defence, I never said that Siv was making that assumption =P

 

I really ought to stop doing strawmans before I start pissing everyone off.


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#122 Old 07-20-2013, 07:26 AM
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 Though, in my defence, I never said that Siv was making that assumption =P

 

No but you were responding to Siv so I think it was quite reasonable to infer that that is what you were implying.grin.gif

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#123 Old 07-20-2013, 07:36 AM
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The "earthings" argument is often used with the expectation that the reaction will be in line with what a veg*n expects. Many omnis view the factory farm as just another way or producing food - no different from crops. The animal is just another crop to them so seeing them being brutalized has no impact. Although this seems hard to believe, it's a fact that very few people see things the way we do.

 

I recently watched the burger episode of "Kill it, cook it, eat it" and although it's relatively tame compared to earthlings, it was very telling that the majority had no problem with looking a cow in the eyes and depriving it of it's life and even one that was physically sick at the sight of the slaughter was then very happy to eat the meat.

 

The fact is that we veg*ns are a small minority and even within that minority there are many who are happy to cook and serve meat for others. We do not all think the same and we must remember that, no matter how odd or wrong it may seem to us.

 

This reminds me of Gary Yourofsky's famous lecture that is posted on YouTube (and the same lecture that he gave everywhere when he was sponsored by PETA). He basically argues that people are conditioned to believe that meat is necessary for bodily functions, but in actuality people are really feeding their psychological "need" for meat. In doing so, people have put on "blinders" that shelter them from the actual cruelties of the farm industry. Most people are actually far removed from the cruelties of factory farming due to the distance they live from such places. In the past, people were extremely habituated to seeing their own farm animals used for meat or accustomed to going to the local butcher who either freshly dispatched the animals himself or was involved in the butchering of said animals. Commercialism has made meat more appealing by placing it in convenient containers and by adding food dyes to improve the appearance of the food. Thus people have become desynthesized to the origin of their food. Peter Singer brings up a similar argument in his presentation, The Ethics of What We Eat

 

As a former educator, I found it interesting that my 3rd graders (about 8 years old) didn't know that their favorite food of hamburgers actually once came from a living, breathing cow (especially since we had read stories about animals around the same time). We tell such heartwarming tales about life on the farm, sing "Old McDonald", and take gleeful hay rides, but it's really a hypocrisy designed to make our habits more palatable, that is, our ethics (or lack thereof) easier to swallow. 

 

At the end of the day, people are going to eat meat regardless of the reality of where it comes from. And those who are inclined to avoid the farm cruelty aspect may find no problem with "humane meat" (as ponyboy85 has pointed out in other related posts). In fact, many people are resistant to change from the societal norm and those who do often fail, as Joan indicated, due to lack of social support. There is the argument of tolerance vs. acceptance. To enjoy a relatively comfortable social life as a human being I have to be tolerant of other people's beliefs and customs. However, I am under no moral obligation to accept things as they are. If people only accepted things as they were (or are), change would never occur. The world needs both those who are tolerant and those who seek to be agents of social change (those who redefine social norms) in order to effect change. Fringe movements cannot convince the layperson with their (seemingly) extremist views, just like the tolerant may never have the chutzpah to change their stance and appear to sit comfortably as conformists themselves. 

 

 

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Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.
 
~ George Bernard Shaw 

 

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This post is full of win. :thumbsup:
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#124 Old 07-20-2013, 10:14 AM
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#125 Old 07-20-2013, 12:11 PM
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Because you don't care about the animals, as you say, it is probably not easy for you to see why it is difficult for those who do to practice outright tolerance for people who exploit them. It's fine and good to acknowledge that we don't all share the same passions, but it is not a clear cut matter for one person who views animals and their lives as precious and worthy of protection to simply accept that somebody else doesn't. If, for example, I felt that old ladies were not important and as such did not care one wit that some people enjoy clubbing them in the head with baseball bats, it might very well be near impossible for someone who cares greatly for old ladies to simply endure this practice. To just "tolerate" it and to "get along" with people who do these things would be tantamount to ignoring the old ladies' plight, and even condoning it! Likewise, people who view the lives of animals as important and worthy of protection have a tough time simply getting along with those who not only don't value them, but also use them cruelly and unnecessarily.
+1 no need for me to add to that.
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#126 Old 07-20-2013, 12:23 PM
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-1 to even the score
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#127 Old 07-20-2013, 12:56 PM
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-1 to even the score

May I inquire as to your reasoning behind this "evening of the score"? What in my post do you feel is unworthy of a +1?

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#128 Old 07-20-2013, 02:12 PM
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To be honest I rather glanced over your post briefly and had a different impression of what you actually said. Having gone back and given it a more thorough analysis, I'll withdraw the -1. Apologies all around.
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#129 Old 07-20-2013, 02:50 PM
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To be honest I rather glanced over your post briefly and had a different impression of what you actually said. Having gone back and given it a more thorough analysis, I'll withdraw the -1. Apologies all around.
good on you! I was wondering why you -1ed it too. Admitting a mistake is something that most people won't do. +1 to you, just for taking your hat off.
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#130 Old 07-20-2013, 07:05 PM
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See! A great example of people getting along! tongue3.gif

 

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#131 Old 07-21-2013, 05:29 AM
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Why can't we all get along? Because some people insist that their view of morality is superior to others view of morality. And they are willing to hijack the original intent of a thread to prove it.


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#132 Old 07-21-2013, 06:12 AM
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Forgive me if this seems off topic but I think it's relevant to the OP. In my experience I have come to believe that we self-identify with the opinions, values, attitudes, etc that we hold. That is, I think, a mistaken viewpoint as our opinions, values, and attitudes are always changing. What is constantly changing cannot be who we are because who we are is different from moment to moment.

It's important to see this clearly because when someone challenges a position we hold, and we believe that position to be who we are, then that challenge becomes an attack on ourselves. And when we feel threatened we fight back, we repel this supposed attack on ourselves.

So how is this to be overcome? We need to understand that we are not our opinions, we are not our values. They are just things to which we have attached ourselves. And as they are constantly shifting, morphing, transforming and, as such, there is no need to defend them as they are just temporary viewpoints based on our past experiences. As we gather new experiences, those opinions and values will transform as well. And what is the sense of defending an opinion that is not going to last anyway, that is not you.

Perhaps seeing things from this perspective can help diffuse conflicts before they arise?

I wish you all to be peaceful and happy.
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#133 Old 07-21-2013, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Rinchen View Post

Forgive me if this seems off topic but I think it's relevant to the OP. In my experience I have come to believe that we self-identify with the opinions, values, attitudes, etc that we hold. That is, I think, a mistaken viewpoint as our opinions, values, and attitudes are always changing. What is constantly changing cannot be who we are because who we are is different from moment to moment.

It's important to see this clearly because when someone challenges a position we hold, and we believe that position to be who we are, then that challenge becomes an attack on ourselves. And when we feel threatened we fight back, we repel this supposed attack on ourselves.

So how is this to be overcome? We need to understand that we are not our opinions, we are not our values. They are just things to which we have attached ourselves. And as they are constantly shifting, morphing, transforming and, as such, there is no need to defend them as they are just temporary viewpoints based on our past experiences. As we gather new experiences, those opinions and values will transform as well. And what is the sense of defending an opinion that is not going to last anyway, that is not you.

Perhaps seeing things from this perspective can help diffuse conflicts before they arise?

I wish you all to be peaceful and happy.

 

Well stated, Rinchen. I think that when people can remove themselves from the equation for just a moment and look objectively at an argument, it becomes a debate between ideas and not necessarily the people themselves. The point of debates is to present one's beliefs in the hopes of influencing the opposing debater to change his or her stance. When we are able to recognize and understand the perspectives of other people, it is possible to find a common ground between two differing camps of thought. At the end of the day, we may change our positions on topics and that is a natural event. It is normal to feel like you're being judged when presented with arguments that don't agree with one's own. Nevertheless, there are things in the world that we consider eternal verities, which are essential and rudimentary moral principles that do not change based on time or space. Then we can tackle the philosophical and deontological questions of "What is right and wrong?", "What is justice", "Are some forms of life to be valued more than others", etc. By maintaining a respectful and cordial dialogue, logic and emotion can both share a table within the great halls of discourse.

 

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