Are you opposed to eating oysters? - Page 11 - VeggieBoards - A Vegetarian Community
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#301 Old 08-21-2012, 03:30 PM
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yeah. uh, i haven't had a problem with b12, iron, or calcium.  but maybe that's because i don't survive on oreos.  lol

 


I didn't say anything about calcium.   You can't obtain sufficient b12 from a vegan diet no matter how nutrient rich it is, as a result vegans need to take B12 supplements.   Getting sufficient iron from a vegan diet can be a problem for some as well, of course you can supplement here as well.     I'm not claiming that vegans need bivalves to be healthy, instead that they provide a natural source of nutrients that vegans have problems with...especially b12 and it is because of this, as well as lacking a brain, that they are an interesting case.

 

The issues with iron and b12 are more so issues for long-term vegans, the body stores both of these compounds so vegans usually go into it with large stores that can be used to supplement dietary deficiencies....at least for awhile. 

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#302 Old 08-21-2012, 04:31 PM
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I'm not claiming that vegans need bivalves to be healthy, instead that they provide a natural source of nutrients that vegans have problems with...especially b12 and it is because of this, as well as lacking a brain, that they are an interesting case.

But if vegans ate bi-valves, then they wouldn't be vegan, and if being vegan is important to someone (not the label, but the meaning behind the label) then taking a supplement is the answer.

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#303 Old 08-21-2012, 05:13 PM
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This come up in another thread and I was linked to this, I only read the first few pages but:

#1 Bivalves, like oysters, can't in principle feel pain.   To *feel* pain you need more than just nerves, you need a brain...and a pretty complex one at that.  But bivalves, due to the lack of any brain, are clearly in the safe zone.....

#2 There is a very strong nutritional argument for the inclusive of bivalves into an otherwise vegan diet: iron, zinc and b12.   Though most people can get enough of the first two on a traditional vegan diet, you can't the last one.   Interestingly, bivalves are one of the richest sources of iron, zinc and b12...it was almost as if they were created to supplement an otherwise vegan diet.    Per oz, bivalves have vastly more iron than any plant food, they even have 5~10 times more than beef.   Bivalves have 10~40 times the amount of B12, per oz, then meat.   One oyster has 15 mcg of b12, more than 5 times your daily requirement.  Clams have 80.......

#2 supplies the "why", #1 supplies the justification.    

A little less dogma can go along way here.  There are some people that have trouble, due to underlying health conditions, on a traditional vegan diet and bivalves can usually solve the problem.    Even if you're a die-heart traditional vegan, wouldn't you rather people turn to brainless sea life than cows when they can't maintain a traditional vegan diet?  

Bolding mine. You can, it's called a supplement or fortified foods.

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#304 Old 08-21-2012, 06:30 PM
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I'm opposed on the basis that they are slimy and grotesque. I prefer my food bright and alluring. 


 

"Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves." (Lord Byron)
 
 

 

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#305 Old 08-21-2012, 07:52 PM
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But if vegans ate bi-valves, then they wouldn't be vegan, and if being vegan is important to someone (not the label, but the meaning behind the label) then taking a supplement is the answer.

 

This is just the point, when you ignore the label and look at the meaning behind the label, namely the goal of not consuming/using products that involve animal suffering, you can't easily rule out the use of bivalves.     There seems to be two arguments against including bivalves into veganism:

 

1.) Vegans don't eat any animals.  Why? Because they don't want to inflict suffering.  But bivalves have no brains and can't suffer.  Yes, but if you eat them you're not vegan.  

 

2.) Bivalves may have no brains, but maybe they have some unknown ability to feel pain not yet knowable to science. 

 

#1 is circular and #2 opens a huge can of worms in terms of plants...... Other than appealing to tradition, namely "well if you eat them you're not vegan", there doesn't seem to be any good arguments for their exclusion.  

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#306 Old 08-21-2012, 08:02 PM
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This is just the point, when you ignore the label and look at the meaning behind the label, namely the goal of not consuming/using products that involve animal suffering, you can't easily rule out the use of bivalves.     There seems to be two arguments against including bivalves into veganism:

 

1.) Vegans don't eat any animals.  Why? Because they don't want to inflict suffering.  But bivalves have no brains and can't suffer.  Yes, but if you eat them you're not vegan.  

 

2.) Bivalves may have no brains, but maybe they have some unknown ability to feel pain not yet knowable to science. 

 

#1 is circular and #2 opens a huge can of worms in terms of plants...... Other than appealing to tradition, namely "well if you eat them you're not vegan", there doesn't seem to be any good arguments for their exclusion.  

So you would perfectly fine with eating this child? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShMf1X6PqCk

I don't oppose eating oysters because I believe they should get the benefit of the doubt.

We can't be sure of how sentient they are, so why wait around eating oysters until there is a clear answer?

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#307 Old 08-21-2012, 08:17 PM
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I don't oppose eating oysters because I believe they should get the benefit of the doubt.

We can't be sure of how sentient they are, so why wait around eating oysters until there is a clear answer?

 

Why don't you give plants the benefit of the doubt?   If you're going to appeal to some mysterious unknown ability to sense pain....why stop at the animal kingdom?  

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#308 Old 08-21-2012, 08:18 PM
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Why don't you give plants the benefit of the doubt?   If you're going to appeal to some mysterious unknown ability to sense pain....why stop at the animal kingdom?  

I must be psychic. We'd die if we did not eat plants. 

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#309 Old 08-21-2012, 08:23 PM
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I must be psychic. We'd die if we did not eat plants. 

You'll die if you don't eat something, but you're ignoring the issue.   If one is going to appeal to mysterious unknown means of feeling pain, why would you stop at the animal kingdom?  

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#310 Old 08-21-2012, 08:25 PM
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You'll die if you don't eat something, but you're ignoring the issue.   If one is going to appeal to mysterious unknown means of feeling pain, why would you stop at the animal kingdom?  

Yeah, you're right. I should eat animals. I'll start with you.

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#311 Old 08-21-2012, 08:26 PM
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I must be psychic. We'd die if we did not eat plants. 

 

sheep.gif =3

 

Oh yeah, and maybe the thing about oysters, clams, what have you, being  CLASSIFIED as animals. Not plants. surprised.gif


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#312 Old 08-21-2012, 08:27 PM
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Yeah, you're right. I should eat animals. I'll start with you.

 

hungry.gif


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#313 Old 08-21-2012, 08:40 PM
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"The bivalves have sensory organs for discrimination of touch, chemical changes, and light." http://infusion.allconet.org/webquest/PhylumMollusca.html

That is enough reason for this vegan. I never thought I would be reading vegans talking about plant sentience and how nutritious and fabulous it would be to eat shellfish. So gross.
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#314 Old 08-21-2012, 08:52 PM
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Why don't you give plants the benefit of the doubt?   If you're going to appeal to some mysterious unknown ability to sense pain....why stop at the animal kingdom?  


So let me ask you, should we eat brain dead babies or those people who have that rare condition where they can't feel pain? (yes it exists, I saw a documentary on it.) 

 

As veg*ns we make a sweeping generalization to not eat animals (or their products for vegans). Please respect that. Whether or not an oyster can feel pain is rather irrelevant as oysters are still classified as animals. If they weren't classified as animals, maybe we'd eat them, who knows? But they are, so please, respect veg*ns' position on that, and discontinue advocating that we could be eating them.


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#315 Old 08-22-2012, 05:09 AM
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Yeah, you're right. I should eat animals. I'll start with you.


LOL!

Sorry about the calcium thing, Logic.  I meant "zinc" but hadn't looked back at your post.  In any case, I haven't had a problem with that, either. 

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#316 Old 08-22-2012, 06:11 AM
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 I never thought I would be reading vegans talking about plant sentience and how nutritious and fabulous it would be to eat shellfish. So gross.

This ^^

 

I just don't get why we are even talking about this on here. It shouldn't even be a debatable issue.


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#317 Old 08-22-2012, 08:38 AM
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"The bivalves have sensory organs for discrimination of touch, chemical changes, and light." http://infusion.allconet.org/webquest/PhylumMollusca.html
That is enough reason for this vegan. I never thought I would be reading vegans talking about plant sentience and how nutritious and fabulous it would be to eat shellfish. So gross.

 

No where have I suggested that all vegans should consume bivalves, instead what I'm claiming is that issues surrounding bivalves are contentious and bivalve-veganism is a meaningful variant of veganism because it maintains all the underlying ethical and philosophy points of traditional veganism.  

 

Also, if that is enough reason, then you have to worry about plants as well.  Plants have sensory organs, they just don't have nerves like animals.   So, the more general point here is that there is no ethical distinction that can cleanly divide the animal and plant kingdoms as is done in traditional veganism.     

 

Regardless, the general question here is whether the traditional "rules" of veganism follow from the philosophic basis of veganism.  I'm not sure why people here find these sorts of philosophic discusses so problematic, nobody is attacking the underlying philosophic ideas, instead they are asking whether the dietary "rules" actually follow from them. 

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#318 Old 08-22-2012, 09:06 AM
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WARNING GRAPHIC GROSS STUFF
I find it problematic because you are trying to change the definition of veganism to include eating animals. Plants do not have NERVE TISSUE. Vegans do not eat animals.

Go ahead and justify eating whatever you want to, keep on trying to convince new veg*ns to join your Bivalvism group. Good times.

You might be interested in this.
By Jennifer Viegas Discovery Channel
Ripping the legs off live crabs and crowding lobsters into seafood market tanks are just two of the many practices that may warrant reassessment, given two new studies that indicate crustaceans feel pain and stress. The findings add to a growing body of evidence that virtually all animals, including fish, shellfish and insects, can suffer. Robert Elwood, the lead author of both papers, explained to Discovery News that pain allows an individual to be "aware of the potential tissue damage" while experiencing "a huge negative emotion or motivation that it learns to avoid that situation in the future."

Both pain and stress are therefore key survival mechanisms."

Read the rest here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29915025/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/lobsters-crabs-feel-pain-study-shows/



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#319 Old 08-22-2012, 09:07 AM
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Why do people bring up oysters? Blame 2 things:

 

1) This article from Slate: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2010/04/consider_the_oyster.html

 

and

 

2) People who read an article about Peter Singer - maybe even a whole book! - and fancy themselves experts on animal ethics and veganism. Wait, maybe I'm being too harsh. Maybe two whole books beyond the contemporary ethical theory textbook they got in that freshman philosophy course they took.


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#320 Old 08-22-2012, 01:12 PM
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Why do people bring up oysters? Blame 2 things:

1) This article from Slate: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2010/04/consider_the_oyster.html

and

2) People who read an article about Peter Singer - maybe even a whole book! - and fancy themselves experts on animal ethics and veganism. Wait, maybe I'm being too harsh. Maybe two whole books beyond the contemporary ethical theory textbook they got in that freshman philosophy course they took.

laugh.gif

Okay, this thread is causing way too much drama and the subject has already been discussed to death. No more oyster talk please, advocating eating sea creatures is not allowed on VB and the line has been crossed too many times. You can review the rules for posting here: http://www.veggieboards.com/t/61578/rules-infraction-system-please-read-prior-to-posting

Thread closed. You may resume normal veg*n discussion. veganpolice.gif

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