Safety of Home Births vs Hospital Births (Split from Alicia Silverstone...) - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 03-28-2012, 01:56 PM
Beginner
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkepticalVegan View Post

Its kinda like the home birth debate, sure you could choose to forgo a hospital birth surrounded by trained medical doctors and you and your baby will probably be fine, but why not take advantage of the extra protection afforded by modern technologies and training.

No actually they're not similar. The issue with hospital births is that pregnant women undergo more unnecessary, dangerous procedures than home births. Please read Misconceptions by Naomi Wolf.

Edit to add:
You can also read the Amnesty International report on the failure of American hopsitals (and other heathcare providers) to protect women's maternal health. For example, the report says:
Quote:
C-sections are performed in nearly one third of all deliveries in the USA – twice as high as recommended by the World Health Organization. The risk of death following c-sections is more than three times higher than for vaginal births. (page 9 of the summary report)

Think to yourself, 'do midwives perform C-sections in home births?' and then think why an educated woman who values her life might choose a home delivery.
ElaineV is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 03-28-2012, 02:45 PM
Beginner
 
Envy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Heaven
Posts: 6,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

Think to yourself, 'do midwives perform C-sections in home births?' and then think why an educated woman who values her life might choose a home delivery.

Maybe they do the C-sections in order to save the baby or to prevent a messy birth?

That's what happened for me at the very least. (the former)

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
Envy is offline  
#3 Old 03-28-2012, 03:03 PM
Beginner
 
SkepticalVegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

No actually they're not similar. The issue with hospital births is that pregnant women undergo more unnecessary, dangerous procedures than home births. Please read Misconceptions by Naomi Wolf.

Edit to add:
You can also read the Amnesty International report on the failure of American hospitals (and other heathcare providers) to protect women's maternal health. For example, the report says:

Think to yourself, 'do midwives perform C-sections in home births?' and then think why an educated woman who values her life might choose a home delivery.

These are all arguments for better hospital procedures and training, not for more home births. Yes some hospitals do perform unnecessary c-sections (which can be usually refused on the spot or in a previously drawn up statement, though a c-section can also often be requested by the mother as well) and many in the medical profession want to curb that but the inability of midwives to perform c-sections when they are actually necessary can cost lives along with the lack of proximity to many other modern medical devices that are quite helpful in a medical emergency.

This is a subject amicable to scientific study and research has been performed, unsurprisingly it shows that home births carry a higher danger and risk of death than hospital births. In the case a one large multi-year study that risk was almost double for the home birth group
Home birth is the riser option.

No gods, No masters, No woo, No whey! Ⓥ
Read my blog and be skeptical not susceptible
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/
SkepticalVegan is offline  
#4 Old 03-28-2012, 03:32 PM
Beginner
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,965
Skeptical,
You don't get to change the topic from health of the mother to health of the baby. Obviously both are important and a woman will decide for herself how much she is willing to risk, but the fact remains that birthing in a hopsital puts women's health at risk.

The study you cited began by saying:
Quote:
there is a higher likelihood of a vaginal birth with less intervention for healthy women who plan to give birth at home or in a midwifery unit compared with an obstetric unit

For those unfamiliar, the term "intervention" means induction of labour, epidural or spinal analgesia, general anaesthesia, forceps or ventouse delivery, caesarean section, or episiotomy. And also, it should be noted that many of these procedures are promoted as "necessary" in a hospital setting although the data does not support this. Women are simply more likely to birth "normally" (without intervention) outside of the hospital setting.

The study that Skeptical cited says:
Quote:
The odds of receiving individual interventions (augmentation, epidural or spinal analgesia, general anaesthesia, ventouse or forceps delivery, intrapartum caesarean section, episiotomy, active management of the third stage) were lower in all three non-obstetric unit settings, with the greatest reductions seen for planned home and freestanding midwifery unit births (table 4⇓). The proportion of women with a “normal birth” (birth without induction of labour, epidural or spinal analgesia, general anaesthesia, forceps or ventouse delivery, caesarean section, or episiotomy9 10) varied from 58% for planned obstetric unit births to 76% in alongside midwifery units, 83% in freestanding midwifery units, and 88% for planned home births; the adjusted odds of having a “normal birth” were significantly higher in all three non-obstetric unit settings

And the study claims this in the principal findings:
Quote:
The incidence of adverse perinatal outcomes was low in all settings.

The study you cited even concluded this:
Quote:
The results support a policy of offering healthy women with low risk pregnancies a choice of birth setting. Women planning birth in a midwifery unit and multiparous women planning birth at home experience fewer interventions than those planning birth in an obstetric unit with no impact on perinatal outcomes. For nulliparous women, planned home births also have fewer interventions but have poorer perinatal outcomes.

Your study was also in England where healthcare is universal and so many of the problems highlighted in the Amnesty report don't exist. That means, giving birth in an American hospital may be even more dangerous than a planned home birth for a healthy pregnancy.

link to the study that SkpicalVegan cited: http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d7400
ElaineV is offline  
#5 Old 03-28-2012, 05:23 PM
Beginner
 
AddieB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy View Post

Maybe they do the C-sections in order to save the baby or to prevent a messy birth?

That's what happened for me at the very least. (the former)

Me as well. But nowadays, in the US, C-sections are very common. Women often "schedule" their birth because the decide very early to get C-sections rather than go through child-birth.
AddieB is offline  
#6 Old 03-28-2012, 05:27 PM
Beginner
 
SkepticalVegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 750
Quote:
You don't get to change the topic from health of the mother to health of the baby

I didnt. I didnt specify a particular party in either my first or second post, I said "you and your baby..." specifically because its an issue of both parties health.
When I said "home births carry a higher danger and risk of death than hospital births", it meant for both the baby and the mother. Much of the research does focus on outcomes for the baby, though there is data on maternal outcomes. The low number of home births versus hospital births does however make maternal mortality difficult to analysis. While studies do show higher rates of intervention in hospital births, which would be expected since the equipments is actually on hand to use, it should be noted that the data is confounded by the fact that high risk pregnancies almost always are planned as hospital births or are transfer from home to hospital birth when complications arise. This skews the data to looking like hospitals are more dangerous for women when that may not be the case. It should also be noted that the current research is not based on samples that were randomized to either a home birth or hospital birth group, rather they are self-selected allowing for many confounding factors to creep in.

It certainly didn't protect this outspoken home birth advocate

Quote:
the fact remains that birthing in a hopsital puts women's health at risk.

citation needed, specifically that its a higher risk than hospital births

Quote:
Women are simply more likely to birth "normally" (without intervention) outside of the hospital setting.

and thats a meaningless point without evidence that these interventions cause more harm then they prevent.

Quote:
giving birth in an American hospital may be even more dangerous than a planned home birth for a healthy pregnancy.

citation needed

lets take a look at statics from the US, California in particular


from Home Birth Safety by Harriet Hall
Quote:
A new study sheds some light on the subject. It was recently published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology: Maternal and newborn outcomes in planned home birth vs planned hospital births: a metaanalysis, by Wax et al.
...
One of the stated goals of women planning home births is to avoid unnecessary interventions. They did indeed have fewer interventions. But planned home births were characterized by a greater proportion of deaths attributed to respiratory distress and failed resuscitation. Intrapartum asphyxia is a major cause of death in hospital births, and it is decreased by interventions. This raises the question of whether the decreased obstetric intervention in the home birth group may have caused more neonatal deaths due to asphyxia.
...
Up to 37% of women planning a home birth with their first pregnancy end up being transferred to the hospital because of emergencies that arise during the labor process.
...
A non-trivial percentage of planned home births end up with transport to a hospital. Home birth advocates recognize that these emergencies occur. It seems intuitively obvious that increasing the time delay for emergency interventions ought to increase adverse outcomes, that distance from a hospital is a crucial factor, and that the optimum scenario is immediate availability of emergency response, i.e. labor in a hospital rather than at home.

I submit that delayed treatment of unexpected emergencies constitutes a small but undeniable risk for planned home births. It has not been established that the benefits of home birth (lower maternal infection rate, etc.) can outweigh that risk. And it has not been established that those benefits couldnt be obtained just as well by improving hospital practices. What do women really want? If they just want to be at home, they may be willing to accept a small increase in risk. If they want fewer interventions, that doesnt require that they give birth at home.


No gods, No masters, No woo, No whey! Ⓥ
Read my blog and be skeptical not susceptible
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/
SkepticalVegan is offline  
#7 Old 03-28-2012, 05:31 PM
Beginner
 
AddieB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,705
MOD POST: Thread split from discussion that started in this thread.
AddieB is offline  
#8 Old 03-28-2012, 05:34 PM
Beginner
 
SkepticalVegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by AddieB View Post

MOD POST: Thread split from discussion that started in this thread.

thanks

No gods, No masters, No woo, No whey! Ⓥ
Read my blog and be skeptical not susceptible
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/
SkepticalVegan is offline  
#9 Old 03-28-2012, 06:41 PM
Not such a Beginner ;)
 
LedBoots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,346
The women's hospital I work at does some 8000 births a year. The home birth population is all low-risk pregnancies, while a hospital like mine (with a level 4 NICU and high-risk OBs on staff) has a patient population that has a much greater chance of needing interventions for a good outcome. High-risk pregnancies with gestational diabetes, placenta previa, advanced maternal age, fetal anomolies, premature labor, preclampsia, and the biggest of all, previous c-section. Many OBs will not even consider VBAC (vaginal birth after previous cesarean), mostly because of the real risk of lawsuits. So nearly every woman who has a c-section is going to have all her future babies this way. Thus the rate of c-sections will continue to increase.

I had one baby in hospital, and with the second labored 50 hours at the birth center with lay midwives and had to be emergency transferred to the hospital for a c-section.
LedBoots is online now  
#10 Old 03-28-2012, 07:00 PM
Beginner
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,965
"citation needed"???
I offered a book, a report by Ammesty International, and your own first reference. Please read them all thuroughly and get back to me.

Edit to add:
Do you also advocate for all animals to give birth at veterinary offices?
Should we all exercise at the doctor's office lest we suffer a heart attack during a run? Should we do all our cooking at a hospital just in case we accidentally cut or burn ourselves? Should we only ever drive within 2 miles of a hospital in case we get into a car accident? Hospitals are for emergencies; there's no good reason to deny women the option of giving birth in a comfortable home environment if that's what they want.
ElaineV is offline  
#11 Old 03-28-2012, 07:19 PM
Beginner
 
das_nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,130
Interesting statistics, do other statistics also show a disparity?
das_nut is offline  
#12 Old 03-28-2012, 07:41 PM
Beginner
 
SkepticalVegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 750
Quote:
"citation needed"???
I offered a book, a report by Ammesty International, and your own first reference. Please read them all thuroughly and get back to me.

The posted study IS NOT evidence that home births are safer in terms of maternal mortality, it does show that women in hospitals have more interventions...but the part you are missing is that some of these interventions are for the life and safety of the mother
As for the Amnesty International report, please link it or at least give me the name and date of the report so I can actually look it up. Better yet cite the relevant passages.
as for citing a book...come on. Its fine to recommend someone read a book, but to cite an entire book (rather than particular passages) for your argument is either being lazy or attempting win the argument through overwhelming the other party similar to a Gish Gallop. Instead please cite relevant passages, one issue at a time.

again your not make a very good argument for home births over hospital, just less unnecessary c-sections and better hospital training

Quote:
Edit to add:

keep in mind that everything following represents fallacious reasoning, particularly Reductio ad absurdum. I think each of those issue needs to be addressed in its own context, relative risks, and based on its own relevant evidence.

Quote:
Hospitals are for emergencies;

no, hospitals are for health care, the Emergency Room is for emergencies

Quote:
there's no good reason to deny women the option of giving birth in a comfortable home environment if that's what they want.

I never said anything about denying women the choice, though it should be an informed choice made with a medical professional based on evidence and the woman's particular circumstances rather than political advocacy. I'm not advocating for banning homebirth, though given the evidence some degree regulations and certifications for midwives would be reasonable. What I am saying is that I am personally opposed to the home birth movement, the movement that promotes home birth as the superior mode of birth for all or even most mothers & babies and that distorts the relative risk of hospital births.

No gods, No masters, No woo, No whey! Ⓥ
Read my blog and be skeptical not susceptible
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/
SkepticalVegan is offline  
#13 Old 03-28-2012, 07:47 PM
Beginner
 
SkepticalVegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by das_nut View Post

Interesting statistics, do other statistics also show a disparity?

ill try to track some more down...
how about Australia
"Homebirth death rate 17 times higher than comparable risk hospital birth "

No gods, No masters, No woo, No whey! Ⓥ
Read my blog and be skeptical not susceptible
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/
SkepticalVegan is offline  
#14 Old 03-28-2012, 07:57 PM
Beginner
 
SkepticalVegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 750
also from Australia, The 13th Report of the Perinatal and Infant Mortality Committee of Western Australia for Deaths in the Triennium 2005–07 shows a 20 fold increase in deaths by hypoxia. Keep in mind that as strong an effect as this shows that it is likely that the disparity is even worse because this study compare homebirths (typically low risk) versus all hospital births including high risk cases rather than just to comparable low risk hospital birth cases.



and it was found that many of these deaths were preventable

Quote:
The greatest discrepancy in mortality risks for planned home births compared to planned hospital births was in deaths due to peripartum hypoxia. There were 28 perinatal deaths attributed to hypoxic peripartum insult in the 2005-07 triennium (24 in planned hospital births and 4 in planned homebirths). The risk ratio for stillbirth attributed to peripartum asphyxia was 21.5 times higher for the planned home birth group compared to the planned hospital group. The risk ratio for infant death due to peripartum asphyxia was 18.2 times higher for the planned home births compared with planned hospital births...
...
Four of these cases were coded as ‘hypoxic peripartum deaths’ ... They occurred in term or post term pregnancies. These four cases had preventable medical factors (preventability scores >=2) and three were considered potentially avoidable deaths (preventability scores >=4). The proportion of deaths in planned home births with preventability scores >=2 was 57.1%, which was higher than the proportion of 10.3% of all investigated deaths with preventability scores >=2. The proportion of potentially avoidable deaths with preventability scores >=4 was 42.9% in planned home births and 2.4% of all investigated deaths.


No gods, No masters, No woo, No whey! Ⓥ
Read my blog and be skeptical not susceptible
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/
SkepticalVegan is offline  
#15 Old 03-28-2012, 08:20 PM
Beginner
 
das_nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,130
SkepticalVegan, you're doing a great job at convincing me. Never really saw the numbers before, and I didn't really have an opinion one way or another.
das_nut is offline  
#16 Old 03-28-2012, 08:21 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,013
I wonder how the stats stack up when corrected for wealth. It may be that, like homeschooling, there is a rich sub-segment that can do better with a home solution than the public as a whole can do by conventional measures.
paperhanger is offline  
#17 Old 03-28-2012, 08:28 PM
Beginner
 
AlixJ18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,196
I wanted a "home birth" at a birth center, but first of all can't afford it and since it's my first do want to be in the hospital just in case. But i'm treating it as a home birth, and i will be a very difficult patient, and the nurses might hate me but basically i'm not going in thinking i need anything from the staff, i will refuse iv liquids, constant fetal monitoring, laying in bed, will eat and drink as i please, will not allow induction or episiotomy. I just hope the hospital i go to won't be too difficult and will let me do as i please, basically i'll be doing everything they hate, also won't allow them to shine down that bright ass light or try to force me to push when i don't feel the need. It sucks that i'll face a lot of hurdles, but i just can't risk a home birth, if something happened i couldn't stand the guilt.
AlixJ18 is offline  
#18 Old 03-28-2012, 08:30 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlixJ18 View Post

I wanted a "home birth" at a birth center, but first of all can't afford it and since it's my first do want to be in the hospital just in case. But i'm treating it as a home birth, and i will be a very difficult patient, and the nurses might hate me but basically i'm not going in thinking i need anything from the staff, i will refuse iv liquids, constant fetal monitoring, laying in bed, will eat and drink as i please, will not allow induction or episiotomy. I just hope the hospital i go to won't be too difficult and will let me do as i please, basically i'll be doing everything they hate, also won't allow them to shine down that bright ass light or try to force me to push when i don't feel the need. It sucks that i'll face a lot of hurdles, but i just can't risk a home birth, if something happened i couldn't stand the guilt.

Have you talked to the hospital about that yet?
paperhanger is offline  
#19 Old 03-28-2012, 08:36 PM
Beginner
 
AlixJ18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by paperhanger View Post

Have you talked to the hospital about that yet?

Haven't chosen the hospital yet, and basically a lot of the stuff, the doctor has say on instead of the hospital, so if my doc is good with it they shouldn't be able to stop me, though they may try.
AlixJ18 is offline  
#20 Old 03-28-2012, 08:37 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlixJ18 View Post

Haven't chosen the hospital yet, and basically a lot of the stuff, the doctor has say on instead of the hospital, so if my doc is good with it they shouldn't be able to stop me, though they may try.

Good luck.
paperhanger is offline  
#21 Old 03-28-2012, 09:00 PM
Beginner
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkepticalVegan View Post

The posted study IS NOT evidence that home births are safer in terms of maternal mortality, it does show that women in hospitals have more interventions...but the part you are missing is that some of these interventions are for the life and safety of the mother

I'm not missing that. Sure, some of the interventions are actually necessary. But a lot of them aren't. Your argument basically boils down to the idea that we ought not to do natural things with our bodies without medical intervention from the beginning - although the interventions increase the risk of danger - because in the rare case that it requires medical intervention it might take a tiny bit longer to obtain that intervention.
Quote:
As for the Amnesty International report, please link it or at least give me the name and date of the report so I can actually look it up. Better yet cite the relevant passages.

I did both. Look at the first post in this thread. See where I typed (page 9 of the summary report) with a link? That's a citation. That's how web citations work, they are links. Any decent blogger knows that. As for quoting the relevant passage, I did that too, wherein I said C-sections in the US are twice the rate recommended by the WHO and that risk of death following C-sections is over 3 times higher than for vaginal births.

Quote:
your not make a very good argument for home births over hospital, just less unnecessary c-sections and better hospital training

Have you ever actually attended a birth? Have you been in a hospital and seen how difficult it is for women to make their own medical decisions in that circumstance? I only had to witness one birth to know I wouldn't do that myself. One intervention after another... all on nothing truly resembling "informed consent." Have you seen a woman giving birth saying "NO!" to the episotomy and the doctor just ignoring her? This scene happens all the time.

That is not OK.

I am not making policy recommendations, nor am I "representing the home birth movement." I am saying that AS A WOMAN, I don't trust hospitals to protect my rights during a birthing experience. I wouldn't trust them to deliver my baby if I were to have one and I don't expect any other woman to wait around until hospital policies or national healthcare laws change. Given the current circumstances, home births are good option for women who have low risk pregnancies.

I am advocating that women who are healthy and pregnant know all their options and all the facts. I am suggesting that it's perfectly reasonable for a woman to choose to give birth at home and in fact it's likely to be a healthy choice. My sister was born at home. A friend of mine just gave birth at home. It happens all the time and it's perfectly natural.
ElaineV is offline  
#22 Old 03-29-2012, 06:58 AM
Not such a Beginner ;)
 
LedBoots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,346
Quote:
Quote:
Have you talked to the hospital about that yet?

Haven't chosen the hospital yet, and basically a lot of the stuff, the doctor has say on instead of the hospital, so if my doc is good with it they shouldn't be able to stop me, though they may try.

Alix, my advice is to have a short, good birth plan to give to the first nurse you encounter. Your doctor probably has standing orders, and the nurse will call him after it is determined you're in active labor. He will usually just activate his regular orders no matter what you have discussed with him, so if the nurse has your birth plan, she can tell him right away what your needs are. Because he won't remember, and unless he is in-house for another delivery, you may not see him until you are ready to push. I'm assuming you don't want an epidural; make sure you include in your birth plan that you don't want nurses asking you about your pain and offering epidurals. You will ask if pain relief is offered. Because if they get you on a weak moment, to have an epidural, you have to have IV hydration and constant fetal monitoring. And you're stuck in bed.

If he has privileges at more than one hospital, pick the more progressive one.
LedBoots is online now  
#23 Old 03-29-2012, 08:49 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,587
Episiotomy is a HUGE problem in the US: http://www.changesurfer.com/Hlth/episiotomy.html

It makes me sick that 1/3 of vaginal birthd in the US involve episiotomy. Its totally unneccessary, further complicates delivery and recovery and mutilates vaginas for NO reason.

Why are there so many interventions in hospital births? 2 reasons: $ and time. Procedures are expensive, hospitals get more $ the more they do to u. Doctors schedules are more important than natures, c-section, drugs, episiotomy all speed up delivery times, they literally schedule these to fit into the doctors time frame.

I was at my cousins hospital birth recently, after a night of waiting and walking, she wad getting more dilated and ready to go. A nurse told her to stop walking and lay down bc the doctor wasnt ready yet, she was miserable. Also didnt want an epidural: got one. Didnt want episiotomy: got one.

The stirrups are a big part of the problem. Humans dont naturally give birth on their backs w their legs splayed open in the air. This position causes much more discomfort to moms, so why use stirrups? Its easier for the doctor and nurses, the people who really matter in hospital deliveries *sarcasm*

I really like that bbc show about home birthing. I assumed it was a big risk and quite crazy to give birth at home until i saw these ladies in that show do it. Its NOTHING like giving birth at a hospital! Most the ladies arent even in pain most of the time. They are relaxed and actually enjoying the process. Most hospital births ive seen in real life the mom looks and sounds miserable, screaming, sweating all that. The homebirth moms dont act like that, some grunt and make other noises but they dont look to be miserable. One lady had her toddler by her side the whole time, it was great.

Th
luvourmother is offline  
#24 Old 03-29-2012, 08:53 AM
Beginner
 
Envy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Heaven
Posts: 6,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

Episiotomy is a HUGE problem in the US: http://www.changesurfer.com/Hlth/episiotomy.html

It makes me sick that 1/3 of vaginal birthd in the US involve episiotomy. Its totally unneccessary, further complicates delivery and recovery and mutilates vaginas for NO reason.

Why are there so many interventions in hospital births? 2 reasons: $ and time. Procedures are expensive, hospitals get more $ the more they do to u. Doctors schedules are more important than natures, c-section, drugs, episiotomy all speed up delivery times, they literally schedule these to fit into the doctors time frame.

I was at my cousins hospital birth recently, after a night of waiting and walking, she wad getting more dilated and ready to go. A nurse told her to stop walking and lay down bc the doctor wasnt ready yet, she was miserable. Also didnt want an epidural: got one. Didnt want episiotomy: got one.

The stirrups are a big part of the problem. Humans dont naturally give birth on their backs w their legs splayed open in the air. This position causes much more discomfort to moms, so why use stirrups? Its easier for the doctor and nurses, the people who really matter in hospital deliveries *sarcasm*

I really like that bbc show about home birthing. I assumed it was a big risk and quite crazy to give birth at home until i saw these ladies in that show do it. Its NOTHING like giving birth at a hospital! Most the ladies arent even in pain most of the time. They are relaxed and actually enjoying the process. Most hospital births ive seen in real life the mom looks and sounds miserable, screaming, sweating all that. The homebirth moms dont act like that, some grunt and make other noises but they dont look to be miserable. One lady had her toddler by her side the whole time, it was great.

Th

Must be masochists then.

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
Envy is offline  
#25 Old 03-29-2012, 09:02 AM
Beginner
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,965
My advice is to have someone with you during the birth who is willing and able to be your advocate 100%. This person can have no other duty (nurses and doctors are very good at distracting family and friends with little "jobs" while they do whatever they want to do to the "patient").

Inform all your family and friends of your plans in advance, too. And ask them to promise not to try to talk you out of it at the last minute. Remind everyone that birth is a short term pain but the risks from unnecessary interventions can be permanent (for example, a rare but real risk of an epidural is paralysis).
ElaineV is offline  
#26 Old 03-29-2012, 09:14 AM
Beginner
 
AlixJ18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post

Alix, my advice is to have a short, good birth plan to give to the first nurse you encounter. Your doctor probably has standing orders, and the nurse will call him after it is determined you're in active labor. He will usually just activate his regular orders no matter what you have discussed with him, so if the nurse has your birth plan, she can tell him right away what your needs are. Because he won't remember, and unless he is in-house for another delivery, you may not see him until you are ready to push. I'm assuming you don't want an epidural; make sure you include in your birth plan that you don't want nurses asking you about your pain and offering epidurals. You will ask if pain relief is offered. Because if they get you on a weak moment, to have an epidural, you have to have IV hydration and constant fetal monitoring. And you're stuck in bed.

If he has privileges at more than one hospital, pick the more progressive one.

Ya i already have one with everything i want or don't want in it, and plan to give it to my doctor and the hospital staff as well, and i told my mom and bf they have to be on my side no matter what, that they have to be willing to push back with me and not go "okay doctor knows best" because if they do that they know they will have a pissed Alex, and nobody likes that lol.
AlixJ18 is offline  
#27 Old 03-29-2012, 09:19 AM
Super Moderator
 
danakscully64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlixJ18 View Post

I wanted a "home birth" at a birth center, but first of all can't afford it and since it's my first do want to be in the hospital just in case. But i'm treating it as a home birth, and i will be a very difficult patient, and the nurses might hate me but basically i'm not going in thinking i need anything from the staff, i will refuse iv liquids, constant fetal monitoring, laying in bed, will eat and drink as i please, will not allow induction or episiotomy. I just hope the hospital i go to won't be too difficult and will let me do as i please, basically i'll be doing everything they hate, also won't allow them to shine down that bright ass light or try to force me to push when i don't feel the need. It sucks that i'll face a lot of hurdles, but i just can't risk a home birth, if something happened i couldn't stand the guilt.

That's what my sister did

Quote:
Originally Posted by paperhanger View Post

Have you talked to the hospital about that yet?

My sister told the hospital in advance and she stood her ground. During labor, she kept ripping off the fetal monitors and trying to change positions with resistance from the hospital team. She won. The babies couldn't drop because of the position they wanted her to stay in. When she got up, the babies moved and labor progressed fast. If the doctor could have had it his way, she would have had an unnecessary c-section. That's exactly what he told her she "needed," but delivered 2 very healthy babies vaginally anyway. Hospital intervention can cause a lot more problems than needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlixJ18 View Post

Ya i already have one with everything i want or don't want in it, and plan to give it to my doctor and the hospital staff as well, and i told my mom and bf they have to be on my side no matter what, that they have to be willing to push back with me and not go "okay doctor knows best" because if they do that they know they will have a pissed Alex, and nobody likes that lol.

When my sister said no unnecessary c-section, the doctor gave her husband attitude and said "Have you ever delivered twins before!?" to which my BIL said "No, but have you?"
danakscully64 is online now  
#28 Old 03-29-2012, 09:32 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy View Post

Must be masochists then.

What an ignorant assumption.
luvourmother is offline  
#29 Old 03-29-2012, 11:52 AM
Beginner
 
SkepticalVegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 750
Quote:
I did both.

i simply missed the reference, sorry. Having now read it, it is not an agreement against hospital births or an argument in favor of home births. It is an argument against unnecessary c-sections, which is already a concern of science-based practitioners. In fact a large number of these c-section are requested. If a expectant mother would like to avoid a unnecessary c-section the she can refuse a c-section, additionally she can draw up directives before hand. This is not a good reason to forgo proximity to a well stocked modern medical facility. Are excess c-sections really the crux of you argument?

Quote:
That is not OK.

No its not, and in general it is illegal and should be treated as such but it doesn't show that home births are on balance safer

No gods, No masters, No woo, No whey! Ⓥ
Read my blog and be skeptical not susceptible
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/
SkepticalVegan is offline  
#30 Old 03-29-2012, 03:48 PM
Beginner
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,965
Skeptical,
Let me again ask... Do you think all animal should give birth at veterinary offices?

Again, let me point out that I am not making arguments against hospital births or for home births. I am stating the facts: home births for low risk pregnancies are safe and less invasive. The ideal scenario for a home birth would be with a trained midwife (or two) and within a close distance to a hospital in the case of an emergency. ALL the studies show that women who give birth at home experiences far fewer interventions than women who give birth at hospitals. That means women who have home births suffer fewer complications due to those interventions and fewer deaths related to interventions.

Skeptical, you keep saying that women can refuse these interventions if they want, but that's false. Hospitals routinely deny women access to information/ don't allow them to make truly informed decisions or give informed consent. That was highlighted in the Amnesty International report. Read the full report from page 79 onward. Here is a link: http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/defa...lydelivery.pdf
Here are some quotes from the Amnesty International report, titled
"DEADLY DELIVERY – THE MATERNAL HEALTH CARE CRISIS IN THE USA":

"Women who prefer, if possible, to avoid medical procedures – such as c-sections – have reportedly faced pressure and coercion by providers to accept unwanted medical procedures."

"A national survey found that 25 percent of women who had either a primary or repeat c-section reported feeling pressurized by a health provider to have a c-section; 11 percent reported pressure to induce labor."

"only 16 percent of white women had any choice in the decision about episiotomy (a surgical incision through the perineum); for African-American women the figure was only 4 percent"

One of the OB/GYNs interviewed explained "We talk about health care and autonomy, but in reality, in the US, that does not apply to childbearing and pregnant women…The environment is structured to be coercive.”

"An individual woman’s ability to actively participate in her care is hampered by a lack of information about care options and the failure to involve women in decision-making regarding their own health care."

"Studies both in the USA and in other countries have documented the safety, benefits and positive outcomes for mothers and infants of a midwifery model of care." [...] "However, in the USA, women who want to explore the option of having a midwifery model of care face a number of barriers." (page 80-81 of the Amnesty report)
Point is: in the US currently, the only way for many women to obtain "a midwifery model of care" is to have a home birth.

It's worth noting that as a country we essentially stand alone in this "hospitals are the best choice for birth". Most other industrialized nations offer women more choices on how and where to give birth and they're provided with detailed information about the potential positive and negative outcomes. In fact, both Canada and the UK fully support home births for low risk pregnancies and they are more likely to be covered by the national healthcare.
ElaineV is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off