My Moral Dilemma: My Sexual Fetish vs Vegetarianism (Warning: may be disturbing) - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 04-16-2012, 01:13 PM
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Firstly, I am unsure if this is the right section to put this, or even if this is the right forum to ask this, but I really need opinions from vegetarians. This may be disturbing and unsettling to some, but I appreciate anyone who can truck on through this and give me your honest opinions and advice. This may be a long read.

I'm a 19yo male vegetarian, and I will be vegetarian for four years in May. I do it for moral reasons, and I also attempt to avoid leather for the same reasons. I never crave meat, and when it ends up in my food somehow I feel geniunely sick. I try not to hurt anything that is sentient or can suffer, and I feel that I do a pretty good job of it.

I have a foot and shoe fetish, I love erotic humiliation, BDSM, and I also have a giantess and trampling fetish (the former fantasizing about giant women crushing me underfoot, the latter being about normal women walking on me). None of these are wrong and I quite enjoy them, although they can be quite awkward to bring up to a girlfriend.

The dilemma is that I also have what's known as a crush fetish; the desire to see women crush things under their feet. I get heavily aroused seeing women step on small bugs, especially snails. I've purchased dozens of videos of women stomping on and crushing dozens of snails. If watching women crush snails and hearing them crunch underfoot doesn't surpass any other sexual feeling I've had, it is surely up there. I've never told anyone about this fetish (other than the internet).

I have obviously had some reservations, seeing as I am a moral vegetarian. However, as my moral reason for becoming vegetarian rests on not causing harm to anything that can suffer, feel fear, or is sentient, I feel that any organism that lacks all of those qualities can be harmed without being immoral. As kittens, puppies, mice, and even goldfish, crawdads and lobsters (the last three both legal to crush) have at least one of the aforementioned qualities, I will never buy a video with them or ask a girl to crush one. However, as snails are non-sentient and do not feel fear or suffer, I feel that I can buy videos of women crushing them, or ask women to crush them without bending my morals.

As an additional point, unlike some theories that say I will end up killing kittens, I am not sadistic; in fact I am masochistic. The crush fetish goes with my giantess fetish, and when watching a crush video I fantasize about being crushed like one of the snails. I myself do not even kill bugs, and I am described as being incredibly kind. I have three cats and a dog back at home, and I love them all.

So, here's my jumble of questions: Does this logic make sense to you, forum viewers? Does this seem as if I am trying to excuse something I know is wrong, or does it appear perfectly acceptable morally, based on my line of logic? What would you do if you were in my position? Any other feedback or comment?

I'm sorry for posting what has to be one of the weirdest damn things ever, especially on a vegetarian forum, and especially as a first post, but I wanted to get a second opinion from other vegetarians (and vegans).
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#2 Old 04-16-2012, 01:31 PM
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At the risk of this thread having been typed from under a bridge:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CreeperSneaker View Post

So, here's my jumble of questions: Does this logic make sense to you, forum viewers? Does this seem as if I am trying to excuse something I know is wrong, or does it appear perfectly acceptable morally, based on my line of logic? What would you do if you were in my position? Any other feedback or comment?

You seem very confident in snails not being sentient. I don't share your confidence.

Plus, I don't think you can demarcate only a small chunk of a very unethical practice or industry as easily as you think you can. You are still endorsing crush videos, you are still being associated with crush videos, and if you paid money for any such crush videos, the producers could easily be also involved in those forms which you do have an objection to.

Domination and even physical pain are fine if the recipient is providing informed consent for them for sexual reasons. I don't know why anyone would enjoy something sexually where one of the participants was forced into it.

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#3 Old 04-16-2012, 01:34 PM
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Paint nuts as snails and have them step on them instead. It still had the cracking sound without the death.

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#4 Old 04-16-2012, 03:10 PM
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Can you get animated versions? That would be better.
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#5 Old 04-16-2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

You seem very confident in snails not being sentient. I don't share your confidence.

From what I've read snails are non-sentient, and I did look into it before buying videos to clear my conscience. They may experience pain as a stimulus, but are not emotionally affected/scarred, and do not feel fear. Even plants have a limited response to "pain." In contrast, I would not buy a crush video with goldfish because a study confirmed that goldfish that were burnt reacted in depression-like symptoms.

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Plus, I don't think you can demarcate only a small chunk of a very unethical practice or industry as easily as you think you can. You are still endorsing crush videos, you are still being associated with crush videos, and if you paid money for any such crush videos, the producers could easily be also involved in those forms which you do have an objection to.

This is actually one of the easiest things I've justified, as when I buy vegetarian food from Chipotle, my campus dining hall, or a grocery store I am still associating/paying money to groups that sell slaughtered animals for food. Buying vegetarian food or snail crush videos, I am still giving money to groups that may be selling meat or stepping on goldfish.

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Paint nuts as snails and have them step on them instead. It still had the cracking sound without the death.

I've tried to buy videos with nuts and other inanimate objects or fruits, but the problem (sorry to be graphic) is that a nut only goes crunch. A snail goes crunch, but also squishes and its slimy guts coat the sole of the woman's shoe, which is very important to me for some reason. If I could find something that crunched and squished like a snail I wouldn't be here asking these questions.

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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Domination and even physical pain are fine if the recipient is providing informed consent for them for sexual reasons. I don't know why anyone would enjoy something sexually where one of the participants was forced into it.

As the snail is non-sentient (from the sources I can gather), I morally equate them to objects. Forcing objects into something isn't wrong.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Nobilis of Wind View Post

Can you get animated versions? That would be better.

They do have Giantess videos using CGI or green screen effects to simulate giant women crushing tiny men, however the effects are not of high quality and not real enough. I know of no "animated" videos of women crushing bugs, but if the former were of high enough quality it wouldn't matter. Of all my pornographic and fetish videos, crush videos still get me at least five times more aroused than anything else, which is the problem.

Sorry if that sounds like a cop-out, as it probably is.
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#6 Old 04-16-2012, 03:29 PM
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From what I've read snails are non-sentient, and I did look into it before buying videos. They may experience pain as a stimulus, but are not emotionally affected/scarred, and do not feel fear. Even plants have a limited response to "pain." In contrast, I would not buy a crush video with goldfish because a study confirmed that goldfish that were burnt reacted in depression-like symptoms.

"Experiencing pain" suggests sentience. To have experiences is to have sentience; whether there is a particular emotion involved is secondary. Maybe you meant something else.

Quote:
This is actually one of the easiest things I've justified, as when I buy vegetarian food from Chipotle, my campus dining hall, or a grocery store I am still associating/paying money to groups that sell slaughtered animals for food. Buying vegetarian food or snail crush videos, I am still giving money to groups that may be selling meat or stepping on goldfish.

I think that's a bad comparison. It's not merely about supporting a company or organization that also does something bad, but it's about supporting a cultural phenomenon which, as a whole, is bad for animals (crush videos).

And even on the former point, I see many differences between the practice of crush videos on the one hand, and general grocery stores on the other. Such as, you need to eat something, and growing your own veggies or finding an entirely vegan grocery store is pretty difficult, especially taking financial constraints into consideration. And that buying vegetarian food can be a part of a political movement that objects to meat production, whereas supporting crush videos won't be seen by anyone as your way of objecting to some subset of crush videos.

Quote:
I've tried to buy videos with nuts and other inanimate objects or fruits, but the problem (sorry to be graphic) is that a nut only goes crunch. A snail goes crunch, but also squishes and its slimy guts coat the sole of the woman's shoe, which is very important to me for some reason. If I could find something that crunched and squished like a snail I wouldn't be here asking these questions.

I think you're being abnormally specific in your requirements. I'd like to receive in the mail a grandfather clock that is entirely made of foam, but I know I won't be receiving it any time soon, and I've accepted that and have moved on.

And obviously you can have something slimy without that being a snail, such as various fruits and vegetables that are softened by cooking.

Quote:
As the snail is non-sentient (from the sources I can gather), I morally equate them to objects. Forcing objects into something isn't wrong.

Actually, I have a strong suspicion that why you are so adamant about wanting snails to be killed has everything to do with the fact that it's an animal being killed and not some inanimate object being crushed. Especially if what you're attracted to has to do with power and dominance. You can dominate an animal smaller than yourself, but you can't dominate e.g. a synthetic object.

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made of weak and useless men"

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#7 Old 04-16-2012, 04:59 PM
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Actually, I have a strong suspicion that why you are so adamant about wanting snails to be killed has everything to do with the fact that it's an animal being killed and not some inanimate object being crushed. Especially if what you're attracted to has to do with power and dominance. You can dominate an animal smaller than yourself, but you can't dominate e.g. a synthetic object.

I fear that you are right, and the reason that these videos are 5x sexier than similar videos with fruit or other objects are because something living is dying.

However, I do hope that you are wrong, but I am not truly certain. Here are reasons for why you may be wrong:

I do know that even with live crush, a crunch sound and the squishing of the creature must occur, and that whatever is being stepped on must be small and capable of being fully crushed under one step. I am not aroused by kitten, lobster, or simiar crush videos as besides my moral repulsion it looks more like torture than crushing, and I've gravitated to snail crush as cockroach, cricket, and other forms of small insect crushing do not have a crunch.

The closest I have gotten to getting both a crunch and a squish in an inanimate object, while not vegan, is with raw eggs. They crackle and crunch, but squish out messy goo (although I wish the goo were thicker). It arouses me a lot, but there are very few videos with eggs, and I generally do not like the ones out there.* If I were to find videos to my liking, I would experiment with them.

*(I enjoy videos with lots of snails being crushed under a woman's sneakers, boots, or flat sandals with the camera close up at ground level and with shots of the messy shoe soles. I wonder if I were to keep this scenario but swap snails with modified eggs with thicker goo, would I get the same result sexually? If I do, then your theory is false, while if it is not nearly as sexy then sadly you're right.)

Sorry for the gross descriptions, but this is a gross fetish and I did put a disclaimer. If it weren't essential to understanding what I'm saying than I wouldn't include it.
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#8 Old 04-16-2012, 05:10 PM
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My ****ing God. You had better be a troll. You had better be a ****ing troll or I don't know what the hell is wrong with you.

Seek help.

Enjoying the view over at http://forum.veggieviews.com/

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#9 Old 04-16-2012, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CreeperSneaker View Post

Sorry for the gross descriptions, but this is a gross fetish and I did put a disclaimer. If it weren't essential to understanding what I'm saying than I wouldn't include it.

I think you're wrong on that.

I also think you're only here to see how upset you can get a forum of vegetarians.

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#10 Old 04-16-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CreeperSneaker View Post

I fear that you are right, and the reason that these videos are 5x sexier than similar videos with fruit or other objects are because something living is dying.

However, I do hope that you are wrong, but I am not truly certain. Here are reasons for why you may be wrong:

I do know that even with live crush, a crunch sound and the squishing of the creature must occur, and that whatever is being stepped on must be small and capable of being fully crushed under one step. I am not aroused by kitten, lobster, or simiar crush videos as besides my moral repulsion it looks more like torture than crushing, and I've gravitated to snail crush as cockroach, cricket, and other forms of small insect crushing do not have a crunch.

The closest I have gotten to getting both a crunch and a squish in an inanimate object, while not vegan, is with raw eggs. They crackle and crunch, but squish out messy goo (although I wish the goo were thicker). It arouses me a lot, but there are very few videos with eggs, and I generally do not like the ones out there.* If I were to find videos to my liking, I would experiment with them.

*(I enjoy videos with lots of snails being crushed under a woman's sneakers, boots, or flat sandals with the camera close up at ground level and with shots of the messy shoe soles. I wonder if I were to keep this scenario but swap snails with modified eggs with thicker goo, would I get the same result sexually? If I do, then your theory is false, while if it is not nearly as sexy then sadly you're right.)

Sorry for the gross descriptions, but this is a gross fetish and I did put a disclaimer. If it weren't essential to understanding what I'm saying than I wouldn't include it.

Well, if my theory happened to be correct, then it is the case that even if you've read some sources claiming that snails are not sentient*, your fetish is still based on seeing them as sentient in some sense, and then you do enjoy forcing and violence in a sexual context. And to me, that's something you should have serious hesitations about, and not embrace. To me, forced violence isn't okay in general, and it isn't okay in a sexual context. Again, consensual pain or domination is fine by me; and any sexual fetish, no matter how bizarre, is fine by me, as long as it involves mutually enjoying adult human participants and/or objects outside the kingdom animalia.

And there is so much diversity within the aforementioned "constraints" -- so many diverse forms of sexuality to explore that are consensual -- that being cruel to possibly sentient beings should be easy to exclude, without restricting your sexuality.

And I don't think you need eggs either. Plenty of both synthetic materials and vegetable matter available that makes whatever noises and is slimy etc.

*And btw, there are many sources claiming that fish aren't sentient either -- even though I think fish obviously are; so I wouldn't rely too much on just a couple of sources, especially when it comes to non-human sentience where there can still be a lot of human-centric bias.

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#11 Old 04-16-2012, 05:26 PM
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Assuming this is an actual issue for someone...

I think you need to train yourself away from fantasies that involve hurting or killing helpless and unwilling others. I think that with pornography people train themselves to get off on certain things, keep reinforcing it, and then keep looking for more of the same or more intense thrills. I think you need to consciously work your way away from certain images and stop masturbating to them.

You can see a video on YouTube of Ted Bundy talking about how he essentially trained himself to get off to increasingly intense torture porn and increasingly real experiences of it. To me this seems like common sense despite that others take issue with it.

Someone might have a spark of interest in some type of porn or experience, and maybe that can't be helped, but I think the nurturing of it is voluntary.

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#12 Old 04-16-2012, 05:26 PM
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And in case you're trolling me/us, I just want to say that I don't give a ****; my points still apply -- then they just apply to a hypothetical situation, or to a different person, rather than an actual situation or you in particular.

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#13 Old 04-16-2012, 05:27 PM
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Adios.
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#14 Old 04-16-2012, 05:29 PM
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It could be a real problem for a real person, I won't necessarily assume. I'm sure there aren't many places to talk about something like this.

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#15 Old 04-16-2012, 05:30 PM
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It could be a real problem for a real person, I won't necessarily assume. I'm sure there aren't many places to talk about something like this.

Yeah; unless admins/mods can see the IP or e-mail showing it's some previous member or a fake account, then it's difficult to tell for certain based on the posts alone.

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#16 Old 04-16-2012, 05:31 PM
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Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.

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#17 Old 04-16-2012, 05:45 PM
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Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.

Indeed

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#18 Old 04-16-2012, 07:21 PM
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I'm sorry administrators for creating a new account, but there was no way for me to contact you and ask if I could censor my vivid descriptions and continue the conversation. If I'm banned again I'll assume that I cannot discuss this here no matter how I discuss it. I assure you I am a real person, and this is really an issue I'm facing.

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I think you need to train yourself away from fantasies that involve hurting or killing helpless and unwilling others. I think that with pornography people train themselves to get off on certain things, keep reinforcing it, and then keep looking for more of the same or more intense thrills. I think you need to consciously work your way away from certain images and stop masturbating to them.

I do not know if this is possible. I have looked heavily into getting rid of fetishes in the past, but the general concensus is that they're developed at a young age and then locked in. I remember when I was four I saw the first girl ever, and I was immediately attracted to her feet, and soon after meeting her I liked being stepped on by her. I know by 1999 I had discovered toy car crushing online, and I eventually discovered bugs by the age of 10. If I could get rid of all my fetishes I would, but I have learned to accept that that isn't possible. I can deal with all my other ones. While weird, nothing is wrong with me liking feet or wanting to be stepped on by girls, and I could reveal this to a girlfriend I trusted. The problem is this:

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Well, if my theory happened to be correct, then it is the case that even if you've read some sources claiming that snails are not sentient*, your fetish is still based on seeing them as sentient in some sense, and then you do enjoy forcing and violence in a sexual context. And to me, that's something you should have serious hesitations about, and not embrace. To me, forced violence isn't okay in general, and it isn't okay in a sexual context. Again, consensual pain or domination is fine by me; and any sexual fetish, no matter how bizarre, is fine by me, as long as it involves mutually enjoying adult human participants and/or objects outside the kingdom animalia.

Just the fact that I can get off on this creeps me out and makes me feel like a sick person, and it kills me because everything else about me is moral regarding animals and life. To clarify, just the fact that I get off on anything dying, sentient or not, does disturb me; even if I am totally right on the idea of killing snails is not immoral to an ethical vegetarian as they are non-sentient, I don't like the fact that I even have to make that distinction for sexual pleasure.

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It could be a real problem for a real person, I won't necessarily assume. I'm sure there aren't many places to talk about something like this.

That's exactly the problem. This is not something I would bring up to anyone ever under any normal circumstances. Even if I had a girlfriend that would crush as many snails as I ever wanted, I would probably never tell her because I never want anyone to know about it. I don't own a car and I don't have my own insurance, so I cannot get counselling without telling my parents. I can stay anonymous on the internet. Of course, this can make me look like a troll. :P

I've basically accepted that this fetish will not go away, but as per Irizary's advice I'll see if there are ways I could tone it down. You may be right in the fact that I am trying to get larger "thrills" - not to be gruesome, but the amount of snails I want crushed has grown from a few to over one hundred per ten minute video, and so I wonder if I could tone this down to being just small fruits or eggs somehow. That would ease my conscience in every way.

If I can't, would it be helpful emotionally/psychologically and/or morally to simply watch videos I already have and not purchase new ones? I will not be perpetuating snail death and that may make me feel better, however I would still have the root problem of getting off on death to deal with.

EDIT:
Also, regarding my progression of fetishes, while I knew my fetish wasn't socially acceptable at 10, I had no qualms with the idea of being directly or indirectly responible for killing snails or other bugs as I still ate dead cows and chickens for food, and I probably would have liked to hunt. When I became a vegetarian at the age of 15 is when I started to question this fetish not on a "weirdness" level, but on a moral level. When I said I tried to get rid of my fetishes in the past, I had no moral reason to before 15, I just wanted to be "normal." Now, there's the complexity of it being a mixed case morally, which is the reason I'm on a vegetarian forum discussing something that would never normally end up here.
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#19 Old 04-16-2012, 08:06 PM
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Sorry if this has already been answered, but are you able to get sexually aroused without crushing being involved?

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#20 Old 04-16-2012, 08:21 PM
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I'm sure there aren't many places to talk about something like this.

I bet there's a million. Starting with reddit.

Keep on freepin' on

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#21 Old 04-16-2012, 08:27 PM
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maybe you need to deal with why you have these issues. Like the power thing with females, where did that come from?

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#22 Old 04-16-2012, 08:29 PM
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[I]I've basically accepted that this fetish will not go away, but as per Irizary's advice I'll see if there are ways I could tone it down. You may be right in the fact that I am trying to get larger "thrills" - not to be gruesome, but the amount of snails I want crushed has grown from a few to over one hundred per ten minute video, and so I wonder if I could tone this down to being just small fruits or eggs somehow. That would ease my conscience in every way.

Make fake shells out of plaster or ceramic or something in a little mold. And fill them with agar-agar gel. And hire girls to stomp on them. No dead snails; more job growth.

Keep on freepin' on

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#23 Old 04-16-2012, 08:40 PM
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I think you should probably see a counsellor to discuss this.

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maybe you need to deal with why you have these issues. Like the power thing with females, where did that come from?

That's not uncommon for men to enjoy that. I wouldn't class that in itself as an issue either.

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#24 Old 04-16-2012, 08:41 PM
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I have a snail crushing [whatever the opposite of fetish is].

We are all copies of the same machine. 

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#25 Old 04-16-2012, 08:47 PM
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I do not know if this is possible. I have looked heavily into getting rid of fetishes in the past, but the general concensus is that they're developed at a young age and then locked in. I remember when I was four I saw the first girl ever, and I was immediately attracted to her feet, and soon after meeting her I liked being stepped on by her. I know by 1999 I had discovered toy car crushing online, and I eventually discovered bugs by the age of 10. If I could get rid of all my fetishes I would, but I have learned to accept that that isn't possible. I can deal with all my other ones.

My belief is that the spark might be there, caused by whatever thing, and possible to reignite as long as your psychological make-up remains the same, but the intensity and distraction/obsession does not need to be, with some effort. I don't think the "general consensus" about what is psychologically possible is necessarily that meaningful; I think no one knows the potential of the brain, and like I said I think it's common sense that the more one caters to a fantasy and relives it and focuses on it the more of a habit and obsession it becomes. I think it will take some discipline to subdue this fantasy, but I do think you can get to the point where you look at it and say, "I used to like X, I could probably really be into X again if I got into and fed that fantasy, but I don't think about it so much now." I think in many ways it's like getting rid of a habit. You must break the habit and start replacing it with other ones. I also think because of the almost sacred nature with which this society looks at sexual preferences, including fetishes, it seems to me as though people have made them seem more "hardwired" and permanently fixed in terms of intensity than they are. I think that gayness likely is hardwired, but I think that people have lumped all the other variations of sexuality in with that as though they're all just the same, and I don't believe that they are. Like I said, look at Bundy's last interview in which he talks about training himself with torture porn. It is very common sense to me that when someone feeds that, with the reward of an orgasm, it builds upon itself. I think you can train yourself away from it to a large degree.

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#26 Old 04-16-2012, 08:48 PM
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I think you should probably see a counsellor to discuss this.



That's not uncommon for men to enjoy that. I wouldn't class that in itself as an issue either.


no, but it is causing CrprSnkr distress.

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#27 Old 04-16-2012, 08:52 PM
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I took it as the domination from the women wasn't causing him distress, the moral dilemma WRT the snails was.

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#28 Old 04-16-2012, 08:59 PM
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I took it as the domination from the women wasn't causing him distress, the moral dilemma WRT the snails was.

but the snail thing is just a symptom of a deeper problem. Is there any point in just dealing with the snail thing?

Dealing solely with the snail thing would be just like bandaging soldiers, rather than trying to organise peace talks, I think.

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#29 Old 04-16-2012, 09:11 PM
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but the snail thing is just a symptom of a deeper problem. Is there any point in just dealing with the snail thing?

Dealing solely with the snail thing would be just like bandaging soldiers, rather than trying to organise peace talks, I think.

I understand what you mean in that some of his other fetishes are relating to dominance too - and I think that is perhaps problematic, even though plenty of people are into that - but I think the snail snuff porn is a very specific kind of violence, and the victim is completely unwilling too, in real life. I think it's possible he could stop arousing himself to that fantasy, and keep the consensual dominance stuff. He managed to deter himself from the kitten snuff films after all. I think people ought to be very cognizant of what they're training their sexual response to, when it veers in this direction though.

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#30 Old 04-16-2012, 09:14 PM
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but the snail thing is just a symptom of a deeper problem. Is there any point in just dealing with the snail thing?

Dealing solely with the snail thing would be just like bandaging soldiers, rather than trying to organise peace talks, I think.

Right. He did mention that he images himself being crushed like the snails are.

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