Honey superthread: discuss [non]vegan-ness of honey here

[Fyvel]

So you really think that this issue which is in all the various veg*n message boards, blogs, articles and associations for such a long period of time is practised by only a small handful of people?

Anyone who argues that honey is suitable for vegans is as confused as someone who argues fish is suitable for vegetarians.

[Sevenseas]

So you really think that this issue which is in all the various veg*n message boards, blogs, articles and associations for such a long period of time is practised by only a small handful of people?

Well one thing I can tell you is that I see it "practiced" in message boards, blogs and articles no more than fish-eating "vegetarianism" is. Dunno about the associations.

[paulwalkersgirl]

Honey is made by bees, so it's not vegan friendly. IMO.

[Earthling]

I also do not believe in giving insects the same consideration as mammals and birds. As I said before, most insects have life spans of only a few days...

Broiler chickens live for six weeks, is it vegan to eat them?

[IamJen]

Since a lot of people in the vegan community and vegan associations eat honey, it would make their use of the word vegan more legitimate.

Define "a lot". Perhaps "some people in the vegan community" is correct, but no way is it "a lot". Vegan association would likely have even fewer honeytarians, since not eating honey is often included in the manifesto/membership rules, etc.

Also, I'm still unclear as to what word would be left for non-honey-eating vegans.

[IamJen]

Jemdude, why is this so important to you? I've made clear that the reason I want the word vegan to remain with the original definition (from the Vegan Society, UK) is that it's necessary for those of us who are vegan, to be able to eat foods/buy products created by someone else.

As for some of your "arguments":

I'm not sure if there is whole wheat bread at the supermarket that doesn't contain honey. I go to Subway a lot and their whole wheat bread contains honey. Their white bread might be vegan, but the whole wheat bread is healthier for you than the white one.

So, maybe you could:
-not go to Subway
-buy your bread from a bakery or a health food store
-bake your own bread

The main problems with alternative sweeteners is that they are either more expensive (maple syrup), or not widely available (agave nectar), or inferior (white sugar).

There are plenty of alternatives to honey. In recipes, raw sugar (or fruit juice/puree) works just as well, most of the time. Put some jam on your toast.

I also do not believe in giving insects the same consideration as mammals and birds. As I said before, most insects have life spans of only a few days and the killing of bees from harvesting the honey is no different from the killing of insects from harvesting fruits and vegetables; even though some here may disagree.

People needs fruits and vegetables to survive (properly). There is no RDA for honey.

Overall, the vegan philosophy is a good one with its kindness toward animal life. But making a major issue on insects is overdoing it. There are many people within the vegan community and vegan associations that eat honey and use beeswax. It doesn't mean that they don't care about bees, but they understand that they can't be given the same consideration. If they are not convinced that insects should be given the same consideration as mammals and birds, what makes you think you will be able to convince the general public of that?

I would again, like to see your support for statements like "many people within the vegan community" eat honey. While I'm perfectly aware that there is a debate, your attempt to paint this picture of non-honey eaters as somehow being more than "vegan" is just silly.

If this is only an issue of animal harm, then it's perfectly okay (in some cases) to wear wool or eat eggs. Road kill would be okay too, I suppose.

I do think that it's possible to have relatively compassionate production of honey (not sure). However, if it comes from an animal, it doesn't matter if the bees live in a gold-plated hive, it's not vegan.

[MrFalafel]

The whole reason the term 'vegan' was created was because the term 'vegetarian' was corrupted to mean just about anything.

And now we have people who want to corrupt the term 'vegan', too. Swell.

[Toast]

Wouldn't it make more sense to use a term that more adequately describes their diet/lifestyle than twisting another definition to fit what they are doing?
Veganism is more than just a diet that doesn't include animal products. It's about the belief that it's wrong to exploit animals, and taking action to try to eliminate animal products from your life. If you think it's ok to eat honey, your morals are not in line with what veganism is about so why use the term?

A line has to be drawn somewhere or cleaning out the mold from one's refrigerator might be considered not vegan.

But if you have some stats about the number of people who identify as vegans and eat honey, and their percentage from all who identify as vegan, then please, do share. Stats might provide a welcome variation to the standard programme of "Jemdude's Anecdotes for the Evening".

[Jemdude]

The whole reason the term 'vegan' was created was because the term 'vegetarian' was corrupted to mean just about anything.

That's not true. The term 'vegan' was created because because the vegetarian association wanted to include dairy and eggs. Donald Watson didn't want that and wanted his followers to "go the full journey".

[Jemdude]

Define "a lot". Perhaps "some people in the vegan community" is correct, but no way is it "a lot". Vegan association would likely have even fewer honeytarians, since not eating honey is often included in the manifesto/membership rules, etc.

Also, I'm still unclear as to what word would be left for non-honey-eating vegans.

I admit that there are no statistics that I'm aware of, but there is a lot of informal information. My contacts with the vegans in my own vegetarian association, comments made here and on other forums, the quote from the slate article that says that the modern adherent to veganism may allow for honey, the fact that the debate exists and for such a long period of time, Eugene's knowledge in Vegan Outreach and their policies, etc.

Judging from all this, a lot of vegan association members ignore the honey part of the membership rules, but follow everything else that a vegan is supposed to do.

As for a word left for non-honey-eating vegans, I don't think there is a need for one. But if you think there would be a need, I'm sure something would be thought up by someone.