Its not like that here tho...

[lirpa1]

Why do people always argue when I say something abt the animal cruelty that is on the farms?

Do any of you know where Gingin is? Or western Australia? Perth?

Well I was telling a few people abt the animal cruelty on these big farms and they always come back with oh it isn't like that in Gingin. The chickens there " apparently" according to them, arent fed anything but regular healthy wholegrain food. and the laying hens are not kept in cages all their lives.. and then on the pig farms, the pigs do not live in their feces and IF they do its b/c THE PIGS like poo. and at the pig farm they are nopt abused, the pigs are treated well... Im sorry but i dont buy into this. I mean, even if the animals there "are" treated properly, Gingin DOES NOT supply all of WA with its meat and eggs. and then people argue and say YES Gingin does supply most eggs and meat.

Am i Just being unreasonable for not believeing all of this.. or they just unwilling to open their eyes and see the truth?

aarrgh


and how do they know all of this when they dont even work on these farms? Is australia just the only country that treats its animals properly? or no?

help please?

[Dieselsmom]

Why do people always argue when I say something abt the animal cruelty that is on the farms?

Do any of you know where Gingin is? Or western Australia? Perth?

Well I was telling a few people abt the animal cruelty on these big farms and they always come back with oh it isn't like that in Gingin. The chickens there " apparently" according to them, arent fed anything but regular healthy wholegrain food. and the laying hens are not kept in cages all their lives.. and then on the pig farms, the pigs do not live in their feces and IF they do its b/c THE PIGS like poo. and at the pig farm they are nopt abused, the pigs are treated well... Im sorry but i dont buy into this. I mean, even if the animals there "are" treated properly, Gingin DOES NOT supply all of WA with its meat and eggs. and then people argue and say YES Gingin does supply most eggs and meat.

Am i Just being unreasonable for not believeing all of this.. or they just unwilling to open their eyes and see the truth?

aarrgh


and how do they know all of this when they dont even work on these farms? Is australia just the only country that treats its animals properly? or no?

help please?

Pigs do not like their poo. They are actually very clean animals and if kept in pens where there is room for them to move around, will do their business in one corner. Slobs and animal abusers have caused this reputation because they are too darn lazy to clean the pens!. What pigs do like to do is wallow in mud baths (clean dirt and water) to keep parasites off and protect their skin from sunburn.

As far as Australian animal abuse, I'm in Canada so I couldn't tell you anything about the farm your discussing, but I know that there is an ongoing tragedy occuring with a process called "mulesing" which is performed on sheep, and then too the fact that Australia ships its live sheep overseas to the middle east in ships that are horrible.

[lirpa1]

Pigs do not like their poo. They are actually very clean animals and if kept in pens where there is room for them to move around, will do their business in one corner. Slobs and animal abusers have caused this reputation because they are too darn lazy to clean the pens!. What pigs do like to do is wallow in mud baths (clean dirt and water) to keep parasites off and protect their skin from sunburn.

As far as Australian animal abuse, I'm in Canada so I couldn't tell you anything about the farm your discussing, but I know that there is an ongoing tragedy occuring with a process called "mulesing" which is performed on sheep, and then too the fact that Australia ships its live sheep overseas to the middle east in ships that are horrible.


Yea i kno pigs are actually clean animals, thats why it annoys me so much when people say they like poo grrrr

as for the mueseling, i am not sure exactly where i stand on that. Yes it is a painful thing, but I have been on a few thousand acre farm with abt 3000 or more sheep on it. The ones which still have their tails, actually are worse off many times. have u ever been to a farm with that many sheep? and i australia, the temps here get so hot.. and the mueseling is done for a reason. In the summer when it is hot, the sheep who have tails do a poo, and often the poo sticks upder the tail. this attarcts flies. the flies then begin laying eggs, and the maggots start easting the skin. so every so often on the farm i used to live on we had to round the sheep up, shave the infected with maggot area and pour medicine on it... the mueslied sheep are much better off b/c the maggots are not as prone to start eating their skin.. so which is better? a week or so of pain from having the tail removed? or amonth of pain where the maggots eat the skin off the sheeps body? and we just hope we round all 3000 sheep up again to shave them and pour medicine before it dies of infection from being fly struck.

I fyou have ever been to australia ukno the flies are horrendous, so this is a big prob. and if the farmers used pain killers, seriouly many are running farms at a loss right no so they cant afford it. im not sure how the sheep are mueslied, but mayb some sort of ring instead could be used to cut off circulation and the the tail come off... but the muesling... well i dont know exactly what side i am on yet b/c I kno first hand the beenefits from it.

[lirpa1]

I just read up on the museling. Its done when the sheep are young, and the skin around the anus is cut off by someone who is experienced to do it. there isnt usually much bleeding if done correctly b/c its on the skin on top which is removed, and not deep tissues.

I have helped the farmer seriously dig the maggots out of the skin on unmuselied sheep, and its is gross, and stink, and just covered with pus where the maggots have eaten away the skin. wouldn't that be more painful than the museling? having your end and back eaten by maggots as opposed to some loose skin removed as a baby?

[kali]

I just read up on the museling. Its done when the sheep are young, and the skin around the anus is cut off by someone who is experienced to do it. there isnt usually much bleeding if done correctly b/c its on the skin on top which is removed, and not deep tissues.

it doesnt matter how experienced the person is who does it, they still do it without using an anaesthetic which is very cruel.

[Dieselsmom]

I just read up on the museling. Its done when the sheep are young, and the skin around the anus is cut off by someone who is experienced to do it. there isnt usually much bleeding if done correctly b/c its on the skin on top which is removed, and not deep tissues.

I have helped the farmer seriously dig the maggots out of the skin on unmuselied sheep, and its is gross, and stink, and just covered with pus where the maggots have eaten away the skin. wouldn't that be more painful than the museling? having your end and back eaten by maggots as opposed to some loose skin removed as a baby?

I'll tell you what. How about you drop your drawers, and we'll grab a big handful of your backside and using a nice big pair of garden shears, we'll just slice it right off! Of course, out of kindness, we will be very careful not to cut to deep, wouldn't want bleeding. Then we'll discuss whether or not this is a cruel procedure.

Do you realize that these sheep, merino's are bred to have extremely wrinkly skin. The more skin area, the more wool they can produce. So the process from beginning to end is unnatural. This very thing is one of the reasons why vegan's avoid wool fibers, because of the extreme cruelty of this procedure.

[lirpa1]

I'll tell you what. How about you drop your drawers, and we'll grab a big handful of your backside and using a nice big pair of garden shears, we'll just slice it right off! Of course, out of kindness, we will be very careful not to cut to deep, wouldn't want bleeding. Then we'll discuss whether or not this is a cruel procedure.

Do you realize that these sheep, merino's are bred to have extremely wrinkly skin. The more skin area, the more wool they can produce. So the process from beginning to end is unnatural. This very thing is one of the reasons why vegan's avoid wool fibers, because of the extreme cruelty of this procedure.

Well thats fine. Im not saying that it isnt a cruel procedure, but I am saying that it is MUch better than the alternativie. so instead of cutting the skin off while they are young in this area to reduce the build up of poo, u think it is better to leave the skin so that every couple of months every single yr of their life they can be rounded up and have the area shaved, and the maggots dug out where the maggots are eating away at the skin?

I am all for Peta most times, but i think this is a topic that many people do not fully understand. unless u have lived here in australia and lived on a sheep farm, and beeen here in the 40 degree celsius or more heat and dealt with the flies then u really are just agreeing with what someone else is saying in the news, or on the proboards. I am all for animal rights, and i do think that this procedure should be done with annesthetic, however i do believe it is beneficial.

would u rather a week of pain? or weeks of pain every year where the maggots eat away at ur flesh? It isnt nice holding the sheep while we pull the maggots out of the skin where they have eaten chunks out on the backside. it isnt nice trying to keep breakfast down b/c the smell of rotting flesh is so overwhelming, it isnt nice doing it month after mnth or going into the pasture and finding ten-twenty sheep who have died b/c we didnt round up all 3000 or more quick enough and the maggots made them get infected so they just laid down and died. If i had a choice to lose a finger or to have the flesh on my arm eaten by maggots each yr, i would choose to loose a finger. I dont see how making sheep go through pain each yr is better than a one off.

seems my thread has gotten off topic :(

rrr and havent even gotten an answer for my topic...

I got argued with again last night, i was told the farms here are perfect, the animals are so well treated, they are not abused and they are killed humanely b/c australia has "tough" laws. and anyhow, if this wasnt the case, said someone i was arguin with, why arent the animal activists causing a stir?

*sigh*:|

[lirpa1]

I apologize if i am a bit too argumentative on the subject, but I do see the benefits and why it is done (the museling).

If someone can give me a good reason to change my views, i will. just at the moment i see once pain is better than 3-4 times each yr's worth of pain...

Im stil learning though and I am only a "new" vegetarian so anyone who would like to enlighten me feel free to do so :)

Thanks

[Dieselsmom]

I am sorry for sounding so harsh especially in view of the fact that you are trying to understand the situation in Australia, but I am absolutely sick at heart at all the excuses that farmers of all sorts use to justify the abuses that are daily heaped on the innocent heads of animals, whether they be food animals or animals that are used for their fiber. Australia has problems, like any other country, and there are groups attempting to address them.

Note this headline:

http://www.liveexportshame.com/about.htm

LIVE ANIMAL EXPORT

AUSTRALIA'S SHAME

Every time we see a truck loaded with animals heading for a port we feel ashamed to be Australian. We have all driven alongside or behind 4 tiered road trains carrying sheep and have been distressed and sickened by the sight of limbs of trapped sheep sticking out of the bars, faces and heads squashed against the rails and we have felt the absolute despair when we looked into the eyes of these helpless creatures.

These animals are still under the protection of The Animal Welfare Act 2002, in Western Australia , right up until the time the loaded ship sails

Be sure to read the entire article for an understanding of where the sheep you are talking about will end up going.

Other sites to look at if you are truly concerned for animal lives in Australia:

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/issues/animal_experimentation.php#toc2
http://www.aact.org.au/factory_farming.htm

Like any other country, I am sure Australia has animal welfare laws. The problem is the people who stand to make money from animals, also will find ways to get around those laws. The live transport of sheep to the middle east is one case in point. As a vegetarian, your interest should be in eliminating animal suffering, and if that means quitting the use of animals for any reason (food, clothing), then so be it. But by your arguements here, which I do understand, appear to be attempting to justify switching from one kind of suffering to another. And keeping in mind that these merino sheep with their extra wrinkly skin are the result of specific breeding, the whole fly strike issue from beginning to end is man's fault.

When I became a vegan, the three really nice wool sweaters that I had purchased previously (not realizing the conditions under which the wool was produced of course) went directly in the garbage. I do not support mulesing, australia's sheep industry in any form. It's all vile.

[Kristen4382]

Kerri-Anne, is that you? ;) [I'm kidding]

I'm not entirely sure I understand your posts, unless you are being sarcastic when you talk about the farmers who care for animals. To me it almost sounds like one minute you are defending the practice and the farming community, and the next you are against it - although that is probably what I am about to do as well. I don't know why they, specifically, argue... you say you are 'telling' them about the cruelty, so does that mean you're in their face and abrupt and refusing to acknowledge their opinion, or vice versa? Either way I guess both parties are very passionate about it.

I think people might be up in arms because Australia is generally quite proud of it's history, and farming is a massive part of that. A lot of heritage, and family pride is involved. They rely on their reputation and their product. I hate mulesing. I think it's disgusting, cruel, and barbaric, but in terms of fly strike, I can also see why they consider it as beneficial in the long run. But this still doesn't make it 'ok' with me. In an ideal world, we'd be using alternatives now, or at least giving them anaesthetic prior to slicing and dicing their woolly a$$es. Or some kind of subsidy would be available. But it isn't an ideal world. They aren't going to use anaesthetic if it is a 'waste' of money.

Or maybe it's something as simple as ignorance being bliss. Like when we randomly educate those around us about factory farming. 'It's not like that everywhere'. I guess people just want to think the best of others. Also it gives them no reason to feel guilty if animals are treated well. I think it's a very touchy subject with no definite answer, especially if there is no alternative, readily available, right now.

Also I'm from Sydney, no idea where Gingin is though it sounds very tasty.


Why do people always argue when I say something abt the animal cruelty that is on the farms?

Do any of you know where Gingin is? Or western Australia? Perth?

Well I was telling a few people abt the animal cruelty on these big farms and they always come back with oh it isn't like that in Gingin. The chickens there " apparently" according to them, arent fed anything but regular healthy wholegrain food. and the laying hens are not kept in cages all their lives.. and then on the pig farms, the pigs do not live in their feces and IF they do its b/c THE PIGS like poo. and at the pig farm they are nopt abused, the pigs are treated well... Im sorry but i dont buy into this. I mean, even if the animals there "are" treated properly, Gingin DOES NOT supply all of WA with its meat and eggs. and then people argue and say YES Gingin does supply most eggs and meat.

Am i Just being unreasonable for not believeing all of this.. or they just unwilling to open their eyes and see the truth?

aarrgh

and how do they know all of this when they dont even work on these farms? Is australia just the only country that treats its animals properly? or no?

help please?

[Smurfbabe]

I know where Gin Gin is - I'm from Western Australia. I know a few farmers. I've also been curious about farming practises in Australia compared to other countries because I'm also constantly faced with the 'but that doesn't happen in Australia' argument. I don't know how bad it is here, but i'm fairly sure it gets pretty bad. Not all our meat/chicken comes from happy healthy outside living animals. I'm sure big corporations (like Steggles) use caged chickens. I"ll try to look into it and see what I can find because I really don't know much about it myself.
I agree the burning/cutting off sheeps tails is cruel, but like others have said - it's better for those animals in the long run. All the farmers I know treat their animals very well....but at the same time, they still eat animals, so it's a totally different mindset.

[kali]

Not all our meat/chicken comes from happy healthy outside living animals. I'm sure big corporations (like Steggles) use caged chickens.

wrt chickens, only about 4% of the market is free range.