Are Vegans more evil than meat eaters?

[Eugene]

I have a friend who believes that most vegans are more evil than most meat eaters.

I do not agree with him, but here is his logic:

Most meat eaters don't know about factory farming. Plus, they grew up in an environment where meat eating was never questioned, hence they never thought about it, and don't know any better.

By contrast, vegans do know better. They know how horrible factory farms and slaughter houses are. Yet, most vegans are not active in promoting veganism to the general public. They are just content to focus on their personal veganism, rather than take the time to inform everyone around them about what goes on.

To paraphrase his argument in my own words:

To know what goes on, and to just be content with your own personal veganism, is like someone in Nazi Germany doing nothing while watching his neighbors herded onto trains, but being content to tell himself that he is a good person because he himself is not the one personally pulling the lever to the gas chamber.

Though, there is key difference between what happened in the 1940's and what is going on today: The people who spoke out in the 1940's were risking their lives. Speaking out today does not require any significant sacrifice at all.

(For example, if you stand on a street corner and give out "Why Vegan" pamphlets from Vegan Outreach, you will create several new vegetarians in just one day's worth of work.)


-Eugene
__________________
http://ar.vegnews.org
(My animal rights FAQ)

[*AHIMSA*]

**** a whole bunch of that. :notvegan:

[animallover7249]

Is this your "friends" ideas, or your safe way of posting that without it seeming like your own views?

[Eleven]

(For example, if you stand on a street corner and give out "Why Vegan" pamphlets from Vegan Outreach, you will create several new vegetarians in just one day's worth of work.)


There are approximately 300,000 vegans in the U.S. If each one leafleted on a given day, the creation of new vegetarians would be in the range of 1 to 1.5 million. Rinse and repeat the next day and 3 - 5 million more vegetarians followed by 9 - 15 million more then 27- 45 million more. Within a single week the entire U.S. is vegetarian. It's a miracle.

If only we weren't so evil.

[Susykat]

Saying that vegans, or meat eaters, are "more evil" than each other is implying that each is already inherently evil...
Weird terminology to use I think.

I think alot of vegans may not actively promote veganism because they have been abused/insulted/etc. by meat eaters when they do so.

Regardless, I think that someone saying a vegan is "evil" because they are not educating meat eaters is taking the responsibility out of meat eaters' hands to educate themselves. Them being informed on the issues shouldn't rely on "vegan educators" - although I do think people actively promoting veganism to the public is great. But let's not be ignorant and pretend that meat eaters don't know what actually goes on in the meat industry - I think it's naive for us to assume this.

The Nazi Germany example is redundant because the bystander in that situation is failing to act at all (they are taking no action to help the victims). Vegans don't consume animal products therefore are having a direct impact - they are failing to create more victims (farm animals in this situation).

[LetoTheTyrant]

I don't 'promote' veganism among none vegans (always promoted around vegans) simply because lots of people that aren't vegan feel that me stating my opinions on why you should eat vegan food over omni or veggie, feel that I am trying to force this upon them, which is the farthest from the truth. I spout about veganism cause it's so awesome and is perfect for me. I can't say that for anyone else, ya know?

[saedierose]

Most meat eaters don't know about factory farming. Plus, they grew up in an environment where meat eating was never questioned, hence they never thought about it, and don't know any better.

By contrast, vegans do know better. They know how horrible factory farms and slaughter houses are. Yet, most vegans are not active in promoting veganism to the general public. They are just content to focus on their personal veganism, rather than take the time to inform everyone around them about what goes on.


This logic is incorrect.
Both my parents are meat eaters and know all the suffering that animals go through in factory farms, yet still decide to eat meat. When my mother was 15 she was a vegetarian for a few months because of this, but found it too hard so started eating meat again. The fact is, it's not that they are unaware, but just don't want to change for whatever reason that may be. Of course, there are some people who genuinely don't know about what goes on but i'd have to say that these days, it'd be pretty rare to not have atleast some idea!

On the other hand, I often inform people about the benefits of a vegan diet but try to do so without sounding like an annoying preacher. I DO inform others about what goes on in factory farms and most of the time, people tell me to be quiet because they "don't want to hear about it" (their wording exactly). If they say this, i'm not going to continue to tell them about it. If they want to be vegan, they will and if they don't, they wont.

[Irizary]

The Nazi Germany example is redundant because the bystander in that situation is failing to act at all (they are taking no action to help the victims). Vegans don't consume animal products therefore are having a direct impact - they are failing to create more victims (farm animals in this situation).

No, they're the same thing. They're just personal boycotts (vegan who doesn't eat animals and German who doesn't personally hurt Jews).

Vegans do not "help" animals by not consuming them. That's like saying I'm "helping" you by not torturing you (how big of me). Likewise, Germans didn't "help" Jews by not personally herding them onto trains.

[Irizary]

On the other hand, I often inform people about the benefits of a vegan diet but try to do so without sounding like an annoying preacher. I DO inform others about what goes on in factory farms and most of the time, people tell me to be quiet because they "don't want to hear about it" (their wording exactly).

Well then you aren't one of those vegans who never speaks up whom he was referring to, and your parents aren't uninformed omnis. Your situation doesn't break into his particular logic about silent vegans and uninformed omnis. I think that's what was being referenced.

[Irizary]

I would say to the extent that people know about this terrible harm happening to animals, and do nothing more than a silent personal boycott, refusing to speak out (and all the excuses for it, "I don't want to be rude!" etc.) that that might be "more evil" than truly not knowing and doing what everyone else is doing. I guess with that knowledge comes a kind of ethical burden.

[Irizary]

I spout about veganism cause it's so awesome and is perfect for me. I can't say that for anyone else, ya know?

So is it right for some others to hurt animals?

[saedierose]

Well then you aren't one of those vegans who never speaks up whom he was referring to, and your parents aren't uninformed omnis. Your situation doesn't break into his particular logic about silent vegans and uninformed omnis. I think that's what was being referenced.


Oooh ok. My mistake!

[antoine08]

Most meat eaters don't know about factory farming. Plus, they grew up in an environment where meat eating was never questioned, hence they never thought about it, and don't know any better.
Whether an omnivore is aware of the specifics of factory farming or not, they all know that animals are killed in order to end up on their plate. I think that fact alone nulls the shield of ignorance on the subject of cruelty and abuse to animals.

Some people just dont care about what happens to animals either way and there is no argument to convince them otherwise. I try to give information to people who seem open and interested into the subject of veganism/animal exploitation.

[LetoTheTyrant]

So is it right for some others to hurt animals?

If they feel it is right for them so be it, it's not my place to judge someone for their beliefs. I can feel it's wrong, but that is for me personally.

an aside - do you know of the multi-quote system, or the ability to edit your posts? I only ask since you posted 4 times in the same thread without another response

[Irizary]

If they feel it is right for them so be it, it's not my place to judge someone for their beliefs. I can feel it's wrong, but that is for me personally.

Well, do you judge slaveholders, or Nazis, or others who do great and lethal harm to others for their own gain or pleasure?

[saedierose]

Whether an omnivore is aware of the specifics of factory farming or not, they all know that animals are killed in order to end up on their plate. I think that fact alone nulls the shield of ignorance on the subject of cruelty and abuse to animals.


I agree, as when has murder ever been painless? Never!

[Irizary]

I agree, as when has murder ever been painless? Never!

I agree. But I don't think everyone knows how truly horrific factory farms are (where the vast majority of animal products comes from). I think industry promotes the lie that animals are well treated on happy government-regulated farms, mostly engaging in their natural behaviors, until the end.

[LetoTheTyrant]

Well, do you judge slaveholders, or Nazis, or others who do great and lethal harm to others for their own gain or pleasure?

as i said its not my place to judge them, I may have my own opinions about it, but regardless I shouldn't judge

[Irizary]

as i said its not my place to judge them, I may have my own opinions about it, but regardless I shouldn't judge

You really feel that you have no business judging a Nazi, a slaveholder, or...a child molester?

[LetoTheTyrant]

yes, i feel no one has the right to judge them. Meet them, speak with them then draw conclusions, but keep them to yourselves. Do you want people to judge you? Personally I don't care, but I don't think they have the RIGHT to judge me

[Irizary]

yes, i feel no one has the right to judge them. Meet them, speak with them then draw conclusions, but keep them to yourselves. Do you want people to judge you? Personally I don't care, but I don't think they have the RIGHT to judge me

Oh yeah, I think people should judge me if I molest children or enslave people or otherwise do great harm to innocent beings.

Why don't people have the "right" to judge?

[LetoTheTyrant]

Obviously people can do whatever they want, I have no right to judge them for that.

I guess I say people don't because I would hope that people would share my ideals (I know this is not the case, but this is how my mind works, assume people are the same as you, so when I speak , I speak that way), and I just say people, but I truly mean that I don't feel I have the right, and wether or not it is a right you or someone else believes is mine, i don't want that right.

[Irizary]

So you are being held for life in a cage so small you can't stand up or stretch, crammed against others, some dying in the cage with you next to them, some dying of thirst when they got their heads caught in the bars of the cage, bored and in pain each miserable day of your life (battery chicken farm)...and you imagine that others shouldn't "judge" your captors...

You're a monkey taken away from your mother at birth and shoved in a cage alone for life, except when your captors take you out by a rope around the neck to stick needles in you or do some surgery and leave you without pain meds...no judgement for the captors.

I wish it was only those who were so understanding and gracious towards those who do great harm to them who had to live through their torture. That's not a world I would want to be a victim in, and I think it's a disservice to the true victims that the perpetrators would escape any judgement.

[LetoTheTyrant]

they won't cause you are obviously there and willing to judge them enough for the both of us. Just because I won't judge them, doesn't mean they won't get theirs.

If everyone felt the same way I did there wouldn't be those atrocities, so there is a difference between ideals and actualities I guess.

Maybe if no one judged others (which we all do, I just don't think we need to voice it), then I would feel it necessary to judge them and speak about it, but since there is so much judgement everywhere I feel I don't want it.

[Irizary]

Don't you think the law is a judgment?