Weight loss problems?

[andremw]

Hey! Has anyone else actually had trouble losing weight since going vegan? I am watching my cals, fat, etc. I only eat whole grains, etc. I am eating healthy with no processed foods, and I keep gaining weight, and feeling tired. Yes, I am eating enough protein and carbs for energy...I actually weigh more now than I ever did. I am just very tired and shaky, and have a lack of energy.

I don't know what could be wrong.

I even went to a registered dietician to show her what I am eating, and she said I should be healthy and losing weight at a healthy pace...

[Animosity]

Hey! Has anyone else actually had trouble losing weight since going vegan? I am watching my cals, fat, etc. I only eat whole grains, etc. I am eating healthy with no processed foods, and I keep gaining weight, and feeling tired. Yes, I am eating enough protein and carbs for energy...I actually weigh more now than I ever did. I am just very tired and shaky, and have a lack of energy.

I don't know what could be wrong.

I even went to a registered dietician to show her what I am eating, and she said I should be healthy and losing weight at a healthy pace...


I haven't seen any changes like that since going vegan. I have however, Dispite having no psyical reason, Always had an extremely hard time losing weight. The most i've ever lost (on a healthy diet) was 8lbs over the course of about 3 months with a TON of exercise. I too have experienced weight gain dispite a healthy whole food calorie counted diet. I'm also fairly active. I'm always shakey, It's always been that way for me, Though. Energy wise, It changes a lot due to my 'mental status'.

I hope you find out. It really does suck not knowing why.

[halo_zero]

If you could post an example of what you eat in a day that'd be a great help. Sometimes if you do that and count the calories you really surprise yourself!

Are you exercising? If so what are you doing?

How often do you eat? Tired and shaky sounds like maybe you eat a big sugary breakfast/lunch and then don't eat until dinner or something.

[ksfc]

Sorry that you're not well.

First, how long has all this been going on?

Second, it would help if you posted a couple of days' worth of what you eat, including amounts.

You have said that you're watching fat, but at what level? I know of people who watch fat and the target they're aiming for is 30% of calories. The best veg*n doctors advocate that fat should be 5-10% of calories, which if you're talking the generic 2000 calorie diet, is 11-22g of fat a day. Ideally it comes from natural sources in the original packaging (i.e. oatmeal at 14% fat gives 4 grams per 1 cup raw oats, potatoes at 1% fat give about 1 gram per 3 medium potatoes, a medium banana has 1 gram of fat and so on). It adds up quickly, even when you're excluding the nuts, seeds, avocados, olives and refined oils that many vegetarians and vegans consume in large quantities. It is very possible to be a fat vegan. Even a fat whole foods vegan.

If you are eating a balanced, lowfat, whole foods plant-based diet (and enough calories) and you're still having these kinds of problems, you should probably see a doctor. This kind of diet is health-supporting and if you're not in good health there's a good chance there's an underlying condition you should have checked out.

[andremw]

Sorry it took me awhile to respond, it wasn't notifying me when I had answers!

I have been to the doc, and had a full blood panel done. It's not hypothyroid, my sugar levels are fine, and I am not anemic, etc.
I also take a multi with b12
Past few weeks, the tiredness and shakyness have gotten so overwhelming, I am almost too weak to excercise. This is a surprise to me.

I usually eat this on any given day

For breakfast: 2 pieces whole grain bread with natural pb and sugar free grape jelly ; 1 container soy yogurt ; calcium orange juice

Midday snack of fruit and some protein source, nuts or seitan strip

lunch of a serving of a grain such as whole grain rice or quinoa, and a serving of a bean, I like black beans. Vegetables are mixed in. Also, a spinach salad with fat free dressing, sometimes nuts like almonds

dinner of a whole grain and bean, such as lentil. lots of veggies mixed in sometimes fruit. a cooked vegetable such a broccoli or brussels sprouts

then I will have an evening snack of some sort of fruit and almond milk, etc

[ksfc]

Well, your diet isn't that far off what I'd recommend.

For your gaining weight issue, I'd suggest cutting out the pb and nuts - there's a lot of fat in them that you don't need if you're trying to lose weight. Also just a quick estimate is that it's over 2000 calories a day (but of course I guessed on your portion sizes), which probably isn't going to give you good weight loss unless you're doing a lot of exercise. Try replacing the snack nuts with whole fruits (not dried), vegetable pieces, air popped popcorn, etc. This will reduce the total calories and the fat - each of which helps weight loss. You could try cutting out all the processed foods like the bread, but I admit that seems like a minor thing.

When I'm eating strictly (no refined foods like pasta/bread, no high fat plant foods), I will get shaky a few hours after eating if I ignore the first empty feelings and I know that I need to eat again. When do you notice your shakiness? Is it consistently at the same time of day or length of time after eating? Does it go away after you eat a piece of fruit or something?

Sorry, I can't think of much more than this. Maybe this is just an adjustment thing and will just resolve itself in time. I know, totally unhelpful comment...

[andremw]

The shaking is pretty much all of the time, regardless of what i have/have not eaten or how much.

Keeping track of portions and all additons on sparkpeople, I get around 1400 calls a day.

I have actually been adding more food due to feeling so weak and hungry, etc.

Also, I need nut products in order to get enough protein, or else I'm nowhere near what I need...

This is so confusing :(

[ksfc]

OK, I have found that times when I'm not eating enough (usually because too busy or travelling and I don't want to eat crap) my weight loss slows or stops. When I deliberately have more snacks (healthy ones), then I start losing again. Yes, it's weird and it probably has something to do with the metabolism going into starvation mode. When you're eating like this, it can be very easy to get below 1000 calories without even trying, and that's bad for me.

I put in what I thought were fairly moderate/low portion sizes for my calculations, so if you're getting 1400 cal/day, IMO you're not eating enough - especially given all the fat calories from the nuts. I haven't used sparkpeople, I'm guessing it's about the same as FitDay and CRON-O-METER, which is what I use.

Your real protein requirements are about 5% of calories - 25g/day on that generic 2000 calorie diet. And that's after doubling the actual physiological requirement of 2.5% of calories to allow for a safety margin. What do you think you need - most people think they need way more than this and it's just not the case. Too much protein can be hard on the kidneys and bones, too, although plant proteins are far better than animal ones. It's virtually impossible to eat a varied whole food plant-based diet and be protein deficient.

At the end of the day, I think you really are hungry! Sometimes that comes out as shaking and weakness, or at least it does for me. Try increasing how much you eat of grains and starchy veggies such as sweet potatoes, white potatoes, yams, squash, corn and so on and cut out (or down) the nuts. Don't let more than 2-3 hours go by without eating something - at least for a week or so.

Good luck!

[andremw]

Hmm, I will have to do some reading on this. Even the Becoming Vegan book I bought says that athletes need around 60 grams protein a day, even as vegans. I was training for tri until I got like this.

I'm so confused, because the RD told me to eat more nuts, to get a bit more fat.

eeep!

I really only eat nuts 3 or 4 days a week.

[evelinadatta]

The general estimate for protein is about .4g per pound of body weight. So let's say you are 150lbs, you should be getting around 60g protein. Especially if you are training.

[Katt Fink]

You said you've been to a dietician, but have you seen a regular doc and gotten your blood tested? I was having the same exact problem as you for a few years, went to quite a few different docs who couldn't really find anything wrong with me, then starting going to a really great Endo and he diagnosed me as pre-diabetic. He put me on Metformin and in a few months i dropped 50lbs without even trying. I'm not trying to scare you into thinking you're pre-diabetic, but it could be a number of things so you should think about getting yourself checked out medically if you haven't already done so. Good luck!

[Dirty Martini]

Hmm, I will have to do some reading on this. Even the Becoming Vegan book I bought says that athletes need around 60 grams protein a day, even as vegans. I was training for tri until I got like this.

I'm so confused, because the RD told me to eat more nuts, to get a bit more fat.

eeep!

I really only eat nuts 3 or 4 days a week.

You need a minimum amount of fat & protein in your diet, and if you're doing strenuous exercise on a regular basis you should be shooting for about 1g protein for lean pound of body mass. The .4g recommendation is a minimum - why settle for the minimum? You're training for a triathlon. Help your body build muscle (and prevent it from consuming your muscle) by feeding it with protein.

You should listen to your RD if increasing fat is what s/he is telling you to do. More fat in your diet can be a very good thing. It helps control appetite and keeps your cell walls in good working order. Fats also assist with hormone release and regulation. Has your RD helped you develop an eating plan?

How big are your serving sizes? Are you sure the info you're entering into your food tracker is right? Have you tried manually tracking nutritional info, based on the packaging of the food you eat? I find most sites to be really off when I enter stuff like flax, oatmeal, etc.

[Dirty Martini]

Here's a fantastic page on vegan nutrition for athletes:

http://www.vegparadise.com/otherbirds510.html

ETA: here's another one:
http://www.adksportsfitness.com/august2003/columns/nutrition.html
It suggests 1 - 1.2 g of protein per kg of body weight.

So according to my research, if you're 150 pounds and 25% body fat, you need about 112g protein daily.
According to the adk link, you would need 70 - 85.

In either case, you're not getting enough.

Shaking should never happen and is a sign of undernourishment. If you really are getting 1400 calories/day, you're probably not getting enough to eat and have pushed your body into "hang on to every calorie" starvation mode.

[andremw]

I doubt I would be pre diabetic, as I never had these sorts of problems until I stopped eating meat.

I definitly agree, that that 25 grams of protein thing is waaay too low.

I do actually go by the packaging and serving size, manually entering things.

[ksfc]

Protein requirements are physiologically about 2.5% of calories, for a recommended 5% to give a safety margin. Protein consumption of more than 100g/day is generally harmful, even if from plant sources.

The China Study by T Colin Campbell is an excellent book that sheds light on the history of why (and the fact that) flawed protein obsession has caused enormous damage to individuals all around the world and, by extension, the planet itself.

People Require Very Little Protein (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/apr/dairy.htm) - selected excerpt below, there's much more info in the link

The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends that men and women obtain 5% of their calories as protein. This would mean 38 grams of protein for a man burning 3000 calories a day and 29 grams for a woman using 2300 calories a day. This quantity of protein is impossible to avoid when daily calorie needs are met by unrefined starches and vegetables. For example, rice alone would provide 71 grams of highly useable protein and white potatoes would provide 64 grams of protein.8

Our greatest time of growth—thus, the time of our greatest need for protein—is during our first 2 years of life—we double in size. At this vigorous developmental stage our ideal food is human milk, which is 5% protein. Compare this need to food choices that should be made as adults—when we are not growing. Rice is 8% protein, corn 11%, oatmeal 15%, and beans 27%.8 Thus protein deficiency is impossible when calorie needs are met by eating unprocessed starches and vegetables.

The healthy active lives of hundreds of millions of people laboring in Asia, Africa, and Central and South America on diets with less than half the amount of protein eaten by Americans and Europeans prove that the popular understanding of our protein needs is seriously flawed.

WHO Recommendations:
(With a wide safety margin)

Men: 5%

Women: 5%

Pregnant: 6%



Protein Overload (http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/040100puproteinoverload.htm) - selected excerpt below

Muscle, vitality, strength, power, energy, vigor, aggressiveness, and liveliness are words that come to mind when people think of the benefits of protein in their diet. The truth is quite the opposite. Bone loss, osteoporisis, kidney damage, kidney stones, immune dysfunction, arthritis, cancer promotion, low-energy, and overall poor health are the real consequences from overemphasizing protein. Protein serves as raw material to build tissues. Without sufficient protein from your diet, your body would be in trouble – but, aside from starvation, this never happens. Yes, a little protein is good, but more is not better. Protein consumed beyond our needs is a health hazard as devastating as excess dietary fat and cholesterol. Unfortunately, almost everyone on the typical Western diet is overburdened with protein to the point of physical collapse. The public has almost no awareness of problems of protein overload, but scientists have known about the damaging effects of excess protein for more than a century.

In his book, Physiology Economy in Nutrition, Russell Henry Chittenden, former President of the American Physiological Society (APS) and Professor of Physiological Chemistry at Yale, wrote in 1905, “Proteid (protein) decomposition products are a constant menace to the well-being of the body; any quantity of proteid or albuminous food beyond the real requirements of the body may prove distinctly injurious…Further, it requires no imagination to understand the constant strain upon the liver and kidneys, to say nothing of the possible influence upon the central and peripheral parts of the nervous system, by these nitrogenous waste products which the body ordinarily gets rid of as speedily as possible.”1

What are Your Construction (Protein) Needs?

Protein from your diet is required to build new cells, synthesize hormones, and repair damaged and worn out tissues. So how much do you need?

The protein lost from the body each day from shedding skin, sloughing intestine, and other miscellaneous losses is about 3 grams per day (0.05 grams/Kg).3 Add to this loss other physiological requirements, such as growth and repairs. The final tally, based on solid scientific research, is: your total daily need for protein is about 20 to 30 grams.4,5 Plant proteins easily meet these needs.6

So what are people consuming? Those living in many rural Asian societies consume about 40 to 60 grams from their diet of starch (mostly rice) with vegetables.6 On the Western diet, typical food choices centered around meat and dairy products, “a well-balanced diet,” provides about 100 to 160 grams of protein a day. A traditional Eskimo, eating marine animals, or someone on the Atkins diet, from various kinds of meat and dairy, might be consuming 200 to 400 grams a day.7 Notice that there can be a 10-fold (1000%) difference from our basic requirements and the amount some people consume. The resilience of the human body allows for survival under conditions of incredible over-consumption.

Excess Protein Burdens the Kidneys and Liver

Processing all that excess dietary protein – as much as 300 grams (10 ounces) a day –causes wear and tear on the kidneys; and as a result, on average, 25% of kidney function is lost over a lifetime (70 years) from consuming the Western diet.8,9 Fortunately, the kidneys are built with large reserve capacity and the effects of losing one-quarter of kidney function are of no consequence for otherwise healthy people. However, people who have already lost kidney function for other reasons – from an accident, donation of a kidney, infection, diabetes, and hypertension – may suffer life-threatening consequences from a diet no higher in protein than the average American consumes.10,11

The time-honored fundamental treatment for people with failing kidneys is a low-protein diet. End-stage kidney failure, requiring dialysis, can usually be postponed or avoided by patients fortunate enough to learn about the benefits of a low-protein diet.10-13

People suffering with liver failure are also placed on diets low in protein as fundamental therapy – short of a liver transplant, this is the most important therapy they will receive. During the end stages of liver failure, patients will often fall into a coma from the build-up of protein breakdown products (hepatic coma). A change to a cost-free, very low-protein diet can cause these dying people to awaken. Well planned, plant-food based diets are particularly effective with both kidney and liver disease.14,15

Excess Protein Damages the Bones = Osteoporosis

Worldwide, rates of hip fractures (and kidney stones) increase with increasing animal protein consumption (including dairy products). For example, people from the USA, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Australia, and New Zealand have the highest rates of osteoporosis. 15,16 The lowest rates are among people who eat the fewest animal-derived foods (these people are also on lower calcium diets) – like the people from rural Asia and rural Africa.15,16

Osteoporosis is caused by several controllable factors; however, the most important one is the foods we choose – especially the amount of animal protein and the foods high in acid.17-19 The high acid foods are meat, poultry, fish, seafood, and hard cheeses – parmesan cheese is the most acidic of all foods commonly consumed.20 This acid must be neutralized by the body.21 Carbonate, citrate and sodium are alkaline materials released from the bones to neutralize the acids. Fruits and vegetables are alkaline and as a result a diet high in these plant foods will neutralize acid and preserve bones. The acidic condition of the body caused by the Western diet also raises cortisol (steroid) levels. 22 Elevated cortisol causes severe chronic bone loss – just like giving steroid medication for arthritis causes severe osteoporosis.

[FredWald]

Great points, with wonderful evidence. I always wondered why in north america we are so involved with consumption. I mean the aboriginals here, and the eastern world could surrive on things like rice and fish. Why do we need to consume so much, your point is well noted, we don't need to.
It's a corporate conditioning implanted in your head from childhood. Once you have teeth, your in for a treat. With the right knowledge though parents can help their children only get what they need and not desire more.

[Dirty Martini]

Fred, I'm not sure if this was your point but I'm pretty sure you don't want to start promoting a meat-based diet on a vegetarian board.

Sure we could eat simply. But who wants to? We have a lot of options available to us. I certainly don't want to live on fish & rice every day when I don't have to. Plus, that is not a nutrient-rich diet and would certainly lead to deficiencies. A wide variety of fruits, vegetables, proteins, fats, and minimally-processed grains would be the best way to go.

ksfc, what you posted says that the eastern diet has 40-60g of starches, that americans eat about 100g of protein a day, that inuits eat about twice that amount, and that eating 300g of protein a day is taxing on the kidneys. So.... the first two points have nothing to do with eating 300g of protein and I'm not sure what it's trying to point out. No one is recommending eating 300g of protein (and good luck trying to!!).

And, please cite your sources. It's obvious you're copying/pasting but not obvious from where.

[halo_zero]

KSFC, your most damning points of evidence are from 1905, 1950 and 1968 respectively.

your total daily need for protein is about 20 to 30 grams. (4,5)
4) Hegsted DM.. Minimum protein requirements of adults. Am J Clin Nutr. 1968 May; 21(5): 352-7.

5) Dole V. Dietary treatment of hypertension: clinical and metabolic studies of patients on the rice-fruit diet, J Clin Invest, 1950; 29: 1189-1206.

Here is some info from our current century:
A recent study called "Do Regular High Protein Diets Have Potential Health Risks on Kidney Functions in Athletes?" examined the renal (kidney) function of athletes who follow a high protein diet. The study failed to find any negative effects of a higher protein intake on the kidney function of these athletes (int j sport nutr exerc metab 2000 mar;10(1):28-38) And the paragraph is from Fat Loss Revealed by Will Brink - probably the most respected nutritionist in the body building world.

You can find that study here. (http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25)

It is practically impossible to eat 300 grams of protein on a vegetarian/vegan diet. I can cite lots more information if more proof is required. That is, if you want to see more sentences like this anyway: At present, there is not sufficient proof to warrant public health directives aimed at restricting dietary protein intake in healthy adults for the purpose of preserving renal function.(Earlier cited study)

Will Brink: "A pervasive myth about the foods we eat is the notion that protein intakes above the (RDA) are a health risk. This dire warning about higher than recommended protein intake has been around for decades, and is total nonsense."

I mean no offense to you KSFC, but that info is incorrect and outdated.

Andremw if this is still continuing you should see a doctor rather than a nutritionist. Are you drinking around or more than 2 liters of water a day?

[Earthly Delight]

A few comments on various things I've seen in this thread:

1. andrew--your current calorie consumption is 1400 and you're still gaining? You're shaky from the lack of food even, and yet not losing weight? When I first met with my personal trainer they did a body composition analysis and figured my basal metabolic rate was 1440. My trainer explained to me that even though I tended to eat just below that the reason I wasn't losing anymore weight was because once you get too close to your basal metabolic rate, your body goes into hibernation mode and every little thing you consume goes straight to fat--nothing gets spent unless it absolutely has to!

2. He told me that as a training athelete I should be getting 1.6-1.8g of protein per kg!! While that would be impossible for me (I'd need about 95g of protein a day!!) I did drastically up my protein intake (I was getting umm.. 35ish? 40ish? now I'm around 60-70ish) and the weight has started to shed off quickly! (I'm sure it will plateau soon enough, but I'm happy anyway!)

3. I saw someone say you should only get 5% of your calorie intake from protein. My comment to that is.. WHAT?!?! 20-30% is the accepted value!!! Different nutritionists will recommend different amounts that "maximize weight loss" or whatever, but 5% of your caloric intake in protein is ridiculus! You'd have to live off of apples--even pasta would surpass that!

Anyway--I think maybe you should see a nutritionist and get a qualified opinion from someone who can objectively assess your body composition, energy expenditures, and consumption... s/he might balk at the fact you're vegan, but obviously you a) don't have to take their word as the law--its just an opinion and b) if you hold firm that you wont waver, s/he SHOULD give you options you can comfortably follow--if they can't, you should demand a refund frankly.

[Dirty Martini]

^^ :yes:

I think the 5% comes from a minimum recommended daily amount for sustaining normal organ & brain function. If we all lived off the minimum amount of our macronutrients, we would be eating just a handful of grams of fat, about 10g of protein, and zero carbs (yes, you need ZERO)... and about 500 calories.

so ... no thanks. ;)

[Earthly Delight]

^^ But wouldnt we be wonderfully skinny! ;)

(I kid...)

[Kara_Malia]

20-30% of your calorie intake seems like a LOT of protein. I'm currently on a 1400 calorie a day diet--I am trying to lose weight and develop a healthier lifestyle. 20% of even that low caloric amount is still nearly 300 grams of protein a day. I surely didn't get that when I was eating meat and I don't even get close to it now. If I was on a normal 2000 calorie diet, I should be eating 400 grams of protein a day?

Am I really that malnutritioned?!

[Dirty Martini]

Depends on what your goals are, but your calculations are off.

If you're eating 1400 calories a day, getting 30% of your calories from protein means consuming 420 calories of protein per day (1400*.3). Since each gram of protein contains 4 calories, you would need to consume 105g (420/4) of protein per day.