Grain-Based, High (Good) Carb Diets - Opinions

[tammay]

Hi everyone,
I'm know there are several schools of thought on this, but I was wondering how you all felt about grain-based and/or high carb diets.

I'm taking here about good carbs - veggies, fruits, beans, whole grains - nothing white or processed. I'm also not ruling out protein or fat (i.e., not an all-carb diet, but a high one).

I've been reading several books lately (namely McDougall and Barnard) who seem to argue that high carb low fat diets are the healthiest and bring in a lot of convincing data.

On the other hand, I was a low carber several years ago (not as a vegan or even vegetarian) and read up a lot about the effects of carbs on insulin, etc. Those arguments sounded convincing too at the time :(.

I've been trying to follow a whole food vegan diet and started out the year with one based on veggies, fruits, and beans/tofu, a little fat, and about 2-3 servings of grains.

However, this week I just seem to want the grains and have been replacing a lot of those beans with whole grains, so I'm now taking in about 6-7 servings (but they are portioned servings, like 1 slice of whole grain bread, 1/2 cup cooked grain, etc.) I like it a lot but I guess I'm just worried that it might be too much.

I am trying to lose some weight but I don't weigh myself because I'm trying to focus on healthy living rather than the numbers. It's hard for me to tell yet whether I've lost weight or not, since I gained quite a bit in the last 3 weeks, doing a lot of junk food binges :sick:.

Any thoughts?

Tam

[LucidAnne]

i cant say that 6-7 servings of grains is a HI carb diet! even the somewhat controversial food pyramid recommends 6-11
it sounds like the 2-3 servings you normally eat is way too restrictive that you are now craving it, b/c your body needs the energy!

now, you do get carbs from veggies (in a lesser extent) and beans as well as grains/breads...so depending on your day, you may be getting enough.

whatever diet it is, if you are taking in more calories, you will gain weight, regardless of where the cals come from. (you can get fat on granola! lol)
the good thing w/ good carbs is that you will feel more sated and will hopefully be more able to keep a steadier blood sugar and energy level thoroughout the day, which should help w/ cravings.

imo, i think the glycemic index/ load is a better philosophy to follow. it seems to go hand in hand w/ some of this HIcarb diet, in that it recognizes the quality of good carbs... they are low in glycemic index. but the glycemic index also uses proteins and fats to help keep stable.

i wouldnt worry so much about the junk food binges right now, dont let it derail you. just try to get back on track. perhaps upping a bit of exercise each day can help? or simply changing your activity will challenge you again and can burn more cals. per workout. our bodies/muscles can get used to a certain exercise to the point where it becomes too easy and we dont burn as much...thats why cross training is so effective...its constantly challenging new muscles.

[SomebodyElse]

whatever diet it is, if you are taking in more calories, you will gain weight, regardless of where the cals come from. (you can get fat on granola! lol)
the good thing w/ good carbs is that you will feel more sated and will hopefully be more able to keep a steadier blood sugar and energy level thoroughout the day, which should help w/ cravings.

imo, i think the glycemic index/ load is a better philosophy to follow. it seems to go hand in hand w/ some of this HIcarb diet, in that it recognizes the quality of good carbs... they are low in glycemic index. but the glycemic index also uses proteins and fats to help keep stable.
Good advice. :)

[tammay]

Anne, thanks for the feedback. I guess it's still hard for me to let go of the "carbs are evil" mantra :(.

Forgot to mention that I actually do a good bit of exercise - I walk an average of an hour a day (sometimes more depending on my route) and also do some resistance 2-3x week and some yoga 2-3x week. So I'm actually right on top of things in terms of exercise.

I think one thing that has scared me is the belief that carbs are fattening (all carbs, not just the bad ones) and that I would gain weight adding so much carbs. Also, the whole insulin connection with carbs made me afraid I would be tired with so many grains in my diet.

As far as weight is concerned, I put on a pair of jeans this morning that were tight at the beginning of the week (when I started replacing beans and fruit with carbs) and today they fit much better. Also, I can't say that I've been especially tired these last few days. So I guess those are two myths debunked :).

BTW - here's a typical menu for me:
Morning: tofu scramble with veggies and 3-4 oz tofu; 1 cup cooked oatmeal with 1 tsp maple syrup; coffee with soy milk or soy latte (if I'm in the mood and if I have the cash :D)
Mid-Morning: 1 slice sprouted grain bread with 1/4 cup homemade hummus or bean dip, raw veggie, small serving of fruit
Afternoon: cooked veggies with 1 cup cooked whole grain (like bulgur or pearl barley - trying to stay away from whole grain pasta); 1 small fruit
Mid-Afternoon: Smoothie made with frozen fruit, 1 tbsp ground flaxseed and 1/2 scoop of vegan protein powder (if I feel like I need the protein boost)
Evening: homemade tomato or pumpkin soup with 1/3 cup frozen corn or 1 small baked sweet potato with a bit of crushed pineapple and salsa on top (trying to avoid too much added fat); small salad with 2 tbsp lowfat balsamic vinigrette (Newman's Own)
Night: 1 cup whole grain cereal, sometimes with 1 cup soy yogurt, sometimes just on its own (when I need the crunch :D); a few squares of vegan dark chocolate.

I know it seems like a lot of food because I tend to go for the smaller meals that combine carbs and protein. According to my calculations, I'm eating about 1500-1600 cals/day, which is fine for me.

Tam

[Dirty Martini]

I don't know why you need to do a diet "high" in anything. How about something along the lines of... 30/30/40 (fat, protein, carbs)?

Also, if you were low-carbing it before, you should know that ANY low-carb diet definitely will not vilify all carbs. Low-carb diets initially dramatically limit carbs to get your body to burn fat for energy, instead of glucose. Then you introduce good carbohydrates back into your diet. You don't permanently eliminate all carbs without discrimination, or you were doing it wrong.

Your menu plan sounds like a lot of sugar (syrup, lactose in coffee, fruit, corn, sweet potato, pineapple), and not a lot of protein. Might want to do some tweaking to make it more balanced. :) It's important to keep your triglycerides in check, and limiting sugar will help dramatically. http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/science/a/lowcarbcholest.htm

BTW, fat is not bad. Don't worry about limiting fat in your diet; focus on sugar & calories if you're looking to manage your diet. Also consider the ratio of polyunsaturated fats & monounsaturated fats; lean toward getting more of the latter than the former to even out your omega 3:6 ratio.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/08/health/08fat.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

The largest study ever to ask whether a low-fat diet (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/diet/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) reduces the risk of getting cancer (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/cancer/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) or heart disease (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/heartdisease/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) has found that the diet has no effect.
The $415 million federal study involved nearly 49,000 women ages 50 to 79 who were followed for eight years. In the end, those assigned to a low-fat diet had the same rates of breast cancer (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/breastcancer/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), colon cancer, heart attacks and strokes as those who ate whatever they pleased, researchers are reporting today.

...
The results, the study investigators agreed, do not justify recommending low-fat diets to the public to reduce their heart disease and cancer risk. Given the lack of benefit found in the study, many medical researchers said that the best dietary advice, for now, was to follow federal guidelines for healthy eating, with less saturated and trans fats, more grains, and more fruits and vegetables.

[LucidAnne]

that sounds like a great day actually!

the only thing i would say, if you wanted to be anal, that is... is to replace the maple syrup w/ agave, as it doesnt affect blood sugar so much...and watch out for the smoothie. it can be *depending on what fruit you use* be generally alot of sugar. adding the flax and protein like you do, is good, as it lowers the glycemic index. you can also add a bit of nut butter to your smoothie, or at other times in your day.
dont be too afraid of the fat...you need some fat to absorb nutrients. so olive oil, avocado, nuts are good healthy fats to include.
corn is high in sugar too, very high glycemic index! you could use quinoa in your soup, or brown rice or another grain.
i certainly think you have room to add some more grains.

in the end, fruit are carbs too. but fruit, for the most part, is higher on the glycemic level than grains are. so when you do eat fruit, make sure it is w/ meals, or w/ protein and fat... so you can avoid the blood sugar swings. you might want to replace some of the fruit w/ some grains, breads.

i have type 1 diabetes myself, and have been playing w/ the glycemic index for awhile now, and though i dont always follow it (sometimes i just want plain ole mashed potatoes and NOTHING else!! lol), it has helped me regulate my insulin doses and injections better. its interesting stuff.

but you are obviously seeing results, so good for you girl!!!
the only thing i meant by the exercise is that sometimes a change in our activity, even just subtly, is a good kickstart to get off the weight loss plateau. they say that most pple gain weight w/ only 100 cals extra per day...so presumably, if we omit 100 cals/ day, viva la 6pack!!! haha.

these past few weeks i have had the opposite pant experiences as you... i think i have to break down a buy a bigger pair. ughhhh!!!

[Dirty Martini]

just a note, the insulin index is coming to be more reliable than the glycemic index. Agave is 90% fructose, which still elicits an insulin response and directs your body to store fat. Fructose goes right to your liver (other sugars are metabolized in your cells first). And, fructose contributes directly to increased insulin resistance.

Agave's not the miracle it was marketed to be.

[LucidAnne]

where is the insulin index?
i know there were studies about how much the blood sugar would rise w/ the ingestion of agave.
i dont know how reliable this test was, b/c there are alot of variables, if they used pple w/ diabetes or non-, etc.etc.
ii wonder if it reacts differently in pple who dont have natural insulin (ie: those w/ diabetes)???

as for myself, i have doubted much of the agave reports too b/c i see the increase in my BS when i use it. i havent compared it side by side to another sugar, but for me, i personally don t get the high "spike"in BS like i do w/ honey or sugar. (plus, i use less of the agave b/c it is more sweet.) but i do see an increase, for sure.

[Dirty Martini]

Right. Agave won't affect your blood sugar very much. BUT it does cause a spike in your insulin.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/66/5/1264.pdf

The insulin index starts on page 6 and lists the glycemic index as well.

[LucidAnne]

Right. Agave won't affect your blood sugar very much. BUT it does cause a spike in your insulin.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/66/5/1264.pdf

The insulin index starts on page 6 and lists the glycemic index as well.

ah, i see.
very interesting, thatnks!

[tammay]

Amy and Anne, thanks so much for the feedback.

Amy, you're right that most lowcarb diets do not vilify all carbs and I didn't mean at all to bash lowcarb diets. I never got into the no-carb bandwagon (although, sadly, some do) and during some phases of doing it, I didn't limit veggies at all (i.e., didn't carb count on them) for the very reason that when I did, I didn't eat all that much and I'm a veggie lover (amazingly...) :D.

I guess I didn't realize that my menu had so much sugars in it (duh!) and now I'm taking a much closer look at it. I do realize about the protein things, which is one of the things that is bugging me, since I'm used to eating more protein in my diet (not high protein, just more beans :) ).

The whole issue with fat is always so confusing to me. I know fat is not a bad thing as long as it's good fat (i.e., not the trans fat) but then I read something like McDougall and Barnard who totally vilify fat. I don't believe that adding a teaspoon of olive oil to my salad is a dietary sin and the whole "oil is just liquid fat" always sounded very stupid to me. Half a cup of oil in my salad is bad (I still shudder when I remember my dad pouring a ton of olive oil in my salad and when my sister yelled at him, he said "but it's good for you"!) but a teaspoon? I doubt it!

Thanks again for your feedback!

Tam

[Dirty Martini]

Yeah, it's really interesting. I never really got into the low-carb thing myself until recently. I thought it was all some stupid fad where people got to eat mcdonalds & bacon & greasy crap all the time. It's not that at all... lots of vegetables, and the nutrition plan I'm on (called TNT - targeted nutrition tactics) focuses on eating whole foods that are as unprocessed as possible (and emphasizes weight-bearing exercise). It's a lot different than what I always assumed low carb eating would be. I really enjoy it so far.

Anyway, so I have been doing a lot of reading on good v bad fats and it essentially comes down to avoiding trans fats, limiting saturated and polyunsaturated fats, and increasing your intake of monounsaturated fats. Doing so increases HDL and lowers LDL & triglyceride levels. Though there still isn't a corellation between cholesterol and heart disease, it seems clear that higher levels of HDL are health-promoting and higher levels of the other two are health-diminishing.

And, of course, I'm a big fan of natural foods. (I say, as I drink my crystal light! HA!)

Anyway... you might be interested in the books "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "In Defense of Food". I'm partially into the 1st one and have heard positive things about the 2nd. (and the 2nd one I've heard emphasises a vegetarian diet)

[Kiz]

Part of it is finding something that works for you. I just don't function well on a low-fat diet. I don't feel right and I don't look good.

[Kiz]

And, of course, I'm a big fan of natural foods. (I say, as I drink my crystal light! HA!)



Cristal light? Please don't tell me there is low-carb champagne now. Please don't tell me that. :(



ETA: Googled it. Thank god. It's sugar-free soft drink. You almost gave me a heart-attack, Amy!

[Dirty Martini]

LOL - no, it's a non-carbonated low-calorie soft drink. It comes in flavors like cranberry, orange, lemonade, raspberry, etc.

[karenlovessnow]

I googled TNT and it sounds very intriguing...I really need a lower carb diet now that I've gone through menopause. I'm having a problem, however, with how to do that when I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs...any suggestions?

I eat a lot of beans/legumes (along with fresh vegetables/fruits) but even though they are so called 'good carbs' they still packed on the pounds.

[Dirty Martini]

TNT probably isn't a good diet for a vegetarian.

I would recommend the Schwarzbein Principle (http://www.amazon.com/Schwarzbein-Principle-Healthy-Feeling-Younger/dp/1558746803). It talks about good/bad carbs, how to mitigate blood sugar spikes, and they have an entire chapter for vegetarians.

http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/home.html

[karenlovessnow]

Thanks for the links!

[tammay]

Amy, thanks for the feedback. I totally agree with you that there have been a lot of misconceptions about the lowcarb diet. I'm actually reading Good Calories, Bad Calories right now (very intriguing) and I'll look into In Defense of Food.

I'm still tweaking my menu. I have cut down a lot on the sugar I was consuming before in maple syrup, fruit, etc., and also have moved to a larger amount of protein in my diet and a smaller amount of carby food. It's not low carb by the standards of the low carb diet, but it is in the sense that I've cut down on a lot of grains and fruits. The only problem is that I feel like I'm eating more "fake" food (like veggie burgers, etc.) than I was before in an effort to replace the grains and while I'm feeling really great, no binge cravings, hunger, etc., I would like to tweak it a bit more so that I move into a more whole foods diet. I also have added a bit of dairy and eggs back and would like to eventually eliminate those.

Amy, funny you should have mentioned a 30/30/40 split in nutrients in your original response to my post. I've been thinking about that and plugging in sample menus into fitday and most of them come up with about this ratio (give or take 5% on carbs and protein). So I'm thinking about trying this, although it does add back more sugars.

Romina - I think everyone's body works differently when it comes to certain nutrients (like some people have a problem with consuming a high amount of fat, etc.) so some people are more sensitive to carbs (either refined or unrefined) than others. I've accepted the fact that I'm one of those sensitive people, as even when I eat a large amount of whole grains and/or fruit, they drive up my cravings for junk food :(.

Tam

[Dirty Martini]

I definitely agree with you on the fake foods thing as well as the "not extremely low-carb". I'd definitely say that steel-cut oats are better for you than chik'n filets! You might try tempeh, miso, and tofu as protein staples if you're looking to get rid of eggs entirely.

I'm just curious about the dairy and eggs - is it a "moving toward veganism" thing or another reason? If you pick your sources well, some dairy products and whole eggs can be health-promoting. But, there's a big difference between your typical gallon of milk and, say, a bottle of milk from a local dairy housing grass-fed, pastured cows. Similar with eggs. Now that farmers' markets are in season, you may be able to get these local products that are from animals that eat their natural diets (grass, bugs, etc) and aren't fed hormones or antibiotics or feces or animal parts (blech). Amazingly, the dairy & eggs from pastured animals are lower in calories and higher in omega-3 than those from penned animals, which means they're better-suited for human consumption.

I digress.

I'm the same way as you with carbs - they kick my sugar cravings into high gear and I can't get enough... and then comes the added weight.

All this isn't easy. I read conflicting information at times and get frustrated, but I keep on truckin on. I've been doing lower carbs lately than I think I prefer and am looking at adding some in, but ONLY if they're as minimally processed as possible. Steel-cut oats, oat bran, brown rice, quinoa, etc. And always with protein. Like steel-cut oats with protein powder, blueberries, and chopped walnuts or ground flax seeds. yum!

[Jinga]

Amy, funny you should have mentioned a 30/30/40 split in nutrients in your original response to my post. I've been thinking about that and plugging in sample menus into fitday and most of them come up with about this ratio (give or take 5% on carbs and protein). So I'm thinking about trying this, although it does add back more sugars.


If you do come up with some decent vegetarian daily food logs that fit into the 30/30/40 ratio (without a lot of fake meats), please do post. I've never yet been able to maintain that low of a carbohydrate ratio veg or otherwise.

I have also been reading the book Good Calories, Bad Calories (Amy's recommendation :D). So far, I'm not sure what to think. Some of it does make sense, but my experience has also been different. I've been carb-crazy my entire life and typically stay in the almost underweight category regardless of exercise. I still have some reading to do ... maybe the book will later make some of the connections I need to accept the concept.

[Jinga]

I guess I should clarify that I definately agree with the idea that processed foods, especially over-processed grains, lead to the never ending munchies. However, I was confused when the book pointed out a study where adding small amounts of fruits and veggies to a meat-cheese diet thwarted weight-loss efforts. I thoughts veggies were supposed to be the best foods ever! :cry:

Another book I've read that has some similar ideas, but without the specific macro nutrient ratio is The Thrive Diet. I'm not into all those supplements, but the book also suggests that a diet very high in grains (especially high-processed) is far less than optimal for health and performance.

[Dirty Martini]

I think you're on the right track, though, Jinga and try to read through the study results without a focus on body weight but what is happening with nutrients going to cells, increases in triglycerides, what the different fats do, etc. I don't recall that particular section (what page was it on?) but I suspect the author was trying to show that any amount of carbs, regardless of the source, has an effect on insulin levels. Fruits and veggies ARE good for you. A study linking them to slowed weight loss isn't necessarily a negative. The bigger picture (vitamins, fiber, antioxidants, etc) comes into play here as well. And for someone who has a hard time gaining any weight, the idea could be that you want to increase your insulin levels with good carbohydrates to feed muscle growth (but not fat). Slowed weight loss might = good thing, as long as you're using the right kind of carbohydrates to do so and pairing them with protein.

While your resting metabolism may do just fine on a high % of carbs (and some people do), are the carbs you're feeding your body doing the right thing for you? You can be thin & unhealthy, as you know. Are you eating enough of the right kind of fats to feed your brain? Are you eating an amount of carbohydrates, and the right kind, to keep tri levels low and help build/maintain muscle and fill energy stores? Are you eating enough protein to keep your body from using its own? etc etc.

[Jinga]

While your resting metabolism may do just fine on a high % of carbs (and some people do), are the carbs you're feeding your body doing the right thing for you? You can be thin & unhealthy, as you know. Are you eating enough of the right kind of fats to feed your brain? Are you eating an amount of carbohydrates, and the right kind, to keep tri levels low and help build/maintain muscle and fill energy stores? Are you eating enough protein to keep your body from using its own? etc etc.

I indeed feel like crap most of the time (eating bad carbs, not enough good fats, not always much protein), but my doctor is always pointing out how healthy I am :rolleyes:

[Dirty Martini]

:rolleyes:

Last time I went to the gyn, they weighed me & I was around 150 or so (and about 28-30% body fat) and the nurse said, "you're so tiny! usually everyone hates this part but you're so tiny!" um... I'm 5'6" and 150 pounds... I'm not "tiny". Gave me perspective on what size their typical patients are, I suppose... But yeah, I imagine GPs & RNs & PAs are so used to seeing pretty overweight/unhealthy people & feel inclined to remark when they see people who are around a normal weight.

But I'm getting off topic.

I was doing some reading elsewhere last night about the people who do better on diets with about 50% carbohydrates (people who typically have a hard time building muscle or putting on fat). That 50% should come in the form of whole grains, the best fruits, and vegetables (including a small-to-moderate amount of starchy ones like yams & potatoes).

I don't know what you currently eat, but cutting out anything made with any kind of flour would be a great place to start. I'd try moving your carbs all toward steel-cut oats, ezekiel bread (eaten sparingly), beans with no added sugar (like no baked beans), more quinoa, bulgur, berries & kiwis instead of apples or bananas (try frozen ones in a smoothie or cottage cheese; frozen = cheaper), introducing a ton more green veggies (like having a spinach salad with all sorts of veggies and baked tofu for lunch, and chard, chickpeas, onions, garlic, and seitan for dinner...) and see how that goes. If you feel a lot better, you could always add in stuff made with ww flour from time to time. But really, I haven't read anything that says that even for people on high-carb diets, eating flour-based food on a regular basis is a good thing to do.