Strength Training for Fat Loss - bigger before you get smaller?

[Aubrey]

I am a recovering couch potato, fairly thin, but with very little muscle and excess fat. I recently started a strength training regimen in addition to my walking/jogging schedule, and have noticed that I am getting bigger. I can see that I am becoming more toned, however, some of my pants no longer fit me because of the muscle I've gained in my thighs and butt. I haven't seemed to have lost any fat yet, so it's just kind of sitting on top of all the new, hard muscle. If I keep strength training, will I eventually lose that layer of fat? I've read conflicting reports on whether or not it is possible to get bigger before you get smaller, so I was looking people to share some personal experiences. So far, all my work seems somewhat self-defeating.

[Mr. Sun]

From what I've heard, if you want to stay toned and lose weight the best option is to use lighter weights with more reps. And keep on with the cardio exercises, too, of course.

Good luck and good health to you. :up:

[evelinadatta]

One of the best ways to figure out if you are losing fat is to have your body fat mesured - most gyms have a machine that would do that (and they don't charge) - do it now and then again in a couple of months, and you will see the difference. Also, you didn't mention anything about your diet. That will have an effect as well...

For me personally, my body got leaner when I started lifting weights, but I was not really thin to begin with...

[Rooney]

just run run run and it will go away :)

Eat good protien for growth.It is possible to cut and build at the same time.I get most of my protien now from taters and low fat peanut butter :up:

[Dirty Martini]

From what I've heard, if you want to stay toned and lose weight the best option is to use lighter weights with more reps. And keep on with the cardio exercises, too, of course.

Good luck and good health to you. :up:

GOOD GOD NO!! Lighter weights & more reps will do NOTHING for you but waste your time. And steady-state cardio will encourage your body to hang on to its fat.

Read this: http://www.pt.com.sg/articles/bodyfat.html

My guess is that you're gaining muscle & not losing fat, so you need to look at your diet. Are you creating a calorie deficit at all? If not, make a few adjustments to your diet and you should see some differences.

Whatever you do, lifting tiny weights and doing long stretches of steady cardio will make it worse.

[Dirty Martini]

just run run run and it will go away :)

That's not true. I ran two half-marathons last year (and trained for them) and was still a bit overweight. Running makes your body want to burn fat more efficiently. It gets used to doing that exercise, so it figures out how to do that exercise on less fuel. Our bodies LIKE to be efficient. To keep them from becoming efficient, we have to mix up our workouts and prevent our bodies from expecting the type of exercise we do.

I started lifting weights and doing high-intensity cardio intervals and have lost 10 pounds of fat this year. More than I ever lost with running in twice the amount of time.

[Rooney]

mmmm
i didnt say run the same amount every day now did I?
Obviously you cannot allow yourself to plateaued.....

[Dirty Martini]

Well if you're not going to be specific, then the assumption is going to be that "run = steady-state cardio." People don't hear "run" and think high intensity intervals

Anyway. Here is more stuff to read on strength training for fat loss.
In a nutshell, lift heavy weights and manage your diet carefully.

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/women/lean.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/women/lean_2.htm
http://alwyncosgrove.blogspot.com/2007/01/alwyn-cosgrove-fat-loss-rant.html
http://exercise.about.com/od/exerciseworkouts/a/liftingheavy.htm

[Mr. Sun]

That's not true. I ran two half-marathons last year (and trained for them) and was still a bit overweight. Running makes your body want to burn fat more efficiently. It gets used to doing that exercise, so it figures out how to do that exercise on less fuel. Our bodies LIKE to be efficient. To keep them from becoming efficient, we have to mix up our workouts and prevent our bodies from expecting the type of exercise we do.

I started lifting weights and doing high-intensity cardio intervals and have lost 10 pounds of fat this year. More than I ever lost with running in twice the amount of time.

I've heard that lifting heavier weights is good for losing weight, too, but I don't know how it all works. The guy on the tv said that some women are concerned about having muscles that are too big so he recommended smaller weights with more reps.

I wonder why it's so complicated: it seems to me if one is eating a healthy diet (really healthy) and is burning calories, then the weight has to come off. I saw one woman on Oprah who just started walking on a treadmill. All she could do at the beginning was walk from the start of the Oprah show till the first commercial break. But over the days, weeks and months she could increase that -- with that exercise and a healthier diet she lost tons of weight. She was obese and then she became "normal" size.

I don't know much about it -- weight has never been an issue for me.

[Dirty Martini]

Read the articles. They'll address a lot of your questions/comments.

1. If you create a calorie deficit, the weight will come off. It IS that simple. However, it will likely be in the form of fat AND muscle if you stick to steady-state cardio and light weights + high reps.

2. Women don't get "big" like men do. They don't have nearly the amount of testosterone in their bodies to get big. The idea that women will bulk up from lifting weights (without taking steroids) is a complete myth.

3. The large majority of losing fat while building muscle is diet. Some people say 80%, some say 90%, you get the idea. If you are eating a crappy diet, don't expect exercise to turn you into a beauty queen. Diet matters. A LOT.

Just a thought - if you don't know much about weight training, you probably shouldn't be giving advice on it. ;)

[Mr. Sun]

1. If you create a calorie deficit, the weight will come off. It IS that simple. However, it will likely be in the form of fat AND muscle if you stick to steady-state cardio and light weights + high reps.

So why are the marathon runners so strong? They run long distances and they keep thin and they have muscle. And swimmers too. And cyclists.


2. Women don't get "big" like men do. They don't have nearly the amount of testosterone in their bodies to get big. The idea that women will bulk up from lifting weights (without taking steroids) is a complete myth.

I thought I had understood that to be mainly a myth. I was surprised to hear that trainer on tv not qualify his suggestion. Some women do get big but this is rare. It depends on your body chemistry.


3. The large majority of losing fat while building muscle is diet. Some people say 80%, some say 90%, you get the idea. If you are eating a crappy diet, don't expect exercise to turn you into a beauty queen. Diet matters. A LOT.

That's good to know. Useful info. :) I think too little attention is paid to diet. I wonder what the OP is doing as far as diet is concerned. Maybe that's where she needs to focus.


Just a thought - if you don't know much about weight training, you probably shouldn't be giving advice on it. ;)

If it was a serious medical health question I wouldn't have touched it. I did qualify that post with "from what I hear" -- I don't think someone would put a lot of stock into that. I figured she ask for more details from here or elsewhere.

I still think she would lose fat on the low-weight high-rep program with the continued cardio. My friend, who has a degree in human kinetics always tells me that one should exercise (eg running) in the target heart range, then after twenty minutes you start burning fat. Oh here's a link:


Low Intensity Cardio Workout Approach

Low intensity cardio is the most popular form of cardio and is pushed by many personal trainers. Low intensity cardio works at targeting body fat and that is why it is recommended by many personal trainers. University studies have proven low intensity cardio uses fat calories instead of burning muscle carbohydrate calories for energy. If the body burns fat for energy, you will lose body fat. It just makes sense. It is important to choose cardio machines that can track your heart rate. It will let you monitor your heart rate during your cardio workout to allow you to hit the ideal intensity level. After about 10 minutes or so, you should be close to reaching your ideal heart rate. Staying within that target heart rate for at least 30 minutes is what is recommended by most experts.

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Best-Cardio-Workout-to-Burn-Fat-Quickly&id=419994

Yeah, that's basically what my friend was saying.

Later in that same article:


How to Combine The Two Approaches Into One Awesome Cardio Workout

When performed in a certain manner, it is possible to benefit from doing both types of cardio in the same workout. You can make the first ten minutes of the low intensity cardio workout productive, by starting your cardio workout off at a high intensity level. Find a treadmill or exercise bike and set it at a high level. Push yourself really hard for 10-15 minutes. Once you are really working up a sweat, switch to a low intensity and keep it there for 20-30 minutes. This will burn calories and create a calorie deficit as well as burning body fat during the workout. I maintain an 8% body fat percentage year round using this cardio approach.

But I guess there are different approaches.

[Mr. Sun]

One of my favorite bull**** gym phrases is "I work out with lighter weights and do higher reps so I can get more toned." News flash buddy, working out with lighter weight for more reps is doing nothing for you in terms of getting more "toned and defined." Working out with heavy weights for less reps will have the exact same effect when it comes to "tone and definition." It does NOT "tone and define" you! Working out with weights, whether they are light or heavy, low reps or high reps, does one thing and one thing only, it builds and strengthens muscle. But, didn't we just figure out that to be more toned and defined you just had to lose more fat? YES we did! Therefore, when it comes to looking more toned and defined, weightlifting has very little to do with it!

...

Some people must be scratching their heads right now wondering what in the hell will actually get them more toned and defined. The answer to this question is extremely simple. To get more toned and defined, you have to lose more of the fat that is covering your muscles, and the only way, and let me repeat this, THE ONLY WAY to lose fat from any part of your body is through your diet plan and by doing enough cardio exercise (jogging, riding a bike, etc.). That's it right there, nothing more to it.




http://www.intense-workout.com/tone_definition.html

eta: other pages on the same site: http://www.intense-workout.com/weight_loss.html

http://www.intense-workout.com/cardio.html

[Dirty Martini]

http://www.intense-workout.com/tone_definition.html

eta: other pages on the same site: http://www.intense-workout.com/weight_loss.html

http://www.intense-workout.com/cardio.html

There are plenty of people who are very lean and do very little cardio and no steady state cardio (every sprinter, for example). Why take the time to post an absolute claim (the only way to lose fat is to do cardio) that is obviously false?

[Mr. Sun]

Well, there's two points that we can learn from this:

1. There are different perspectives on the matter. It's not quite as black and white as you made it out to be in post #5. I don't really know a lot about all of this but I have a general understanding from a certain perspective -- the links prove that I wasn't just making something up. Others have that perspective too. Cardio and light-weights with many reps can aid in losing weight. In post #5 you did provide info about diet which is something I did not do.

2. Just because someone claims something on a site doesn't necessarily mean it's true. I think your first link was a bit over-the-top in undermining those who believe that steady-rate cardio can be a useful aid in losing weight. And I agree with you, the link that you quoted above is over-the-top in claiming that the ONLY WAY to lose weight is with cardio.

The OP can read the different links and see what might be appropriate for her.

[Dirty Martini]

Of COURSE steady-state cardio can help people lose weight. If it creates a calorie deficit, it will work.

But for someone who is strength training and wants to lose fat, telling the OP to do lots of reps with low weights doesn't make any sense at all. Nor does steady-state cardio. I suspect the fat loss needs to come from adjustments to her diet, but interval training is also an option.

Also, the statement that cardio is the "only" way to burn fat is BS. As stated, I've lost 10 pounds of fat after stopping my endurance running, adjusting my diet, and lifting heavy weights. Muscles require more calories to build and maintain, meaning that I'm using more calories just to fuel my body when I have more muscle.

Additionally, lifting weights will elevate your metabolism for more than a day after you stop lifting. After steady-state cardio, your metabolism only remains elevated for less than an hour. I don't know about you, but I would much rather burn a greater # of calories for a longer period of time.

By all means, keep the cardio if you enjoy it. But don't expect it to burn fat. Your body adjusts to it and learns how to do it on less & less energy. It's conservation.

And if you don't believe me, go to a local marathon or half-marathon some time. You'd probably be surprised at how many overweight & obese people run marathons.

[Mr. Sun]

just run run run and it will go away :)

Eat good protien for growth.It is possible to cut and build at the same time.I get most of my protien now from taters and low fat peanut butter :up:

Did you read my post #11? It seems you were right: you can just run, run, run and it will go away. Well, according to this guy anyway:


Low Intensity Cardio Workout Approach

Low intensity cardio is the most popular form of cardio and is pushed by many personal trainers. Low intensity cardio works at targeting body fat and that is why it is recommended by many personal trainers. University studies have proven low intensity cardio uses fat calories instead of burning muscle carbohydrate calories for energy. If the body burns fat for energy, you will lose body fat. It just makes sense. It is important to choose cardio machines that can track your heart rate. It will let you monitor your heart rate during your cardio workout to allow you to hit the ideal intensity level. After about 10 minutes or so, you should be close to reaching your ideal heart rate. Staying within that target heart rate for at least 30 minutes is what is recommended by most experts.

The High Intensity Cardio Workout

This is a less utilized form of cardio. High intensity training involves pushing past your pain threshold a bit, so fewer people choose this route. This cardio method can give great results in burning body fat if done properly. The total calories burned in high intensity cardio are greater than low intensity cardio. Some of those calories come from your body fat and some come from glycogen (carbohydrates stores within your muscles). When you burn more calories in your cardio workout than what you consume, you create a calorie deficit. If you burn a more calories during the day than what you eat in food, you will lose weight.

The Limitations of the 2 Types of Cardio Workouts

Once you get your heart rate up to the correct level, the low intensity cardio workout will burn body fat. The downside is that it can take up to 10 minutes to get your heart rate to the correct level to burn body fat. The first 10 minutes of this cardio workout are somewhat unproductive. High intensity cardio is hard to maintain for long periods of time since it takes a lot of effort. Working at an intense level for over 10-15 minutes is extremely difficult.

How to Combine The Two Approaches Into One Awesome Cardio Workout

When performed in a certain manner, it is possible to benefit from doing both types of cardio in the same workout. You can make the first ten minutes of the low intensity cardio workout productive, by starting your cardio workout off at a high intensity level. Find a treadmill or exercise bike and set it at a high level. Push yourself really hard for 10-15 minutes. Once you are really working up a sweat, switch to a low intensity and keep it there for 20-30 minutes. This will burn calories and create a calorie deficit as well as burning body fat during the workout. I maintain an 8% body fat percentage year round using this cardio approach.

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Best-Cardio-Workout-to-Burn-Fat-Quickly&id=419994


ps -- you might want to change you previous post. You can call people's posts or ideas into question but you can't insult people. I think a mod will call you on that eventually, especially if Dirty Martini flags your post.

Good running to you! :up:

[Dirty Martini]

as long as you're using random e-zine type references, you might want to read these:
http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/The-Myth-of-the-Fat-burning-Zone.htm
http://www.prevention.com/cda/article/busting-the-fat-burning-zone-myth/9f3868f271903110VgnVCM10000013281eac____/weight.loss/weight.loss.coaches/michele.stanten
http://exercise.about.com/cs/cardioworkouts/l/aa022601a.htm (http://exercise.about.com/cs/cardioworkouts/l/aa022601a.htm)
http://www.humanhealing.com/articles/weight-loss-myths.php (#3)
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art596.asp

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=747976 (not so e-zine - Alan Aragon)

this should probably be its own thread by now.

[idahovegan]

I am hesitant to chime in on such a heated discussion but I can't help myself . Here is my $.02 for what it is worth:

1. You ARE better off using heavier weights and fewer reps. This will increase muscle mass, and muscle mass requires calories to maintain it. So instead of burning, for example, 2000 calories in a typical day, you can bulk up and burn 2500 calories in a typical day.

2. Dedicated long distance runners are very slim. But if they stop training they get fat very easily. They have very little muscle mass because their bodies have catabolized it in order to be able to run more efficiently.

3. On the other hand, sprinters have a lot of muscle mass. They spend their time lifting weights and running short distances really fast.

[Dirty Martini]

A LOT of dedicated distance runners also do a lot of interval training. It helps improve VO2 max and overall speed.

[Libellula]

I was a distance runner for 9 years, and still am, but I limit my distance training to one day a week where I just go all out on distance. during that nine years I did intervals, ladder intervals, switched up my exercises by swimming, kickboxing, elliptical trainers, etc...

now i lift heavy weights...

[Mr. Sun]

I am hesitant to chime in on such a heated discussion but I can't help myself . Here is my $.02 for what it is worth:

Well, it's not heated, lol. Ok, I'm not hot! Just a difference of opinion.


You ARE better off using heavier weights and fewer reps. This will increase muscle mass, and muscle mass requires calories to maintain it. So instead of burning, for example, 2000 calories in a typical day, you can bulk up and burn 2500 calories in a typical day.

My opinion: you are best off using exercise that you enjoy. If you enjoy low-weight high-reps exercise then you'll stick with it. If you enjoy lifting heavier weights then you'll stick with it. I have a female friend who HATES feeling the burn of lifting heavy weights -- heavy weights wouldn't work for her because she'd soon quit. She loves walking though and if she gets into exercise she much prefers slow long-distance running. But she's skinny anyway. I don't dispute the claims that all things being equal one is better off lifting heavier weights. (my dispute is at the end of this post)


Dedicated long distance runners are very slim. But if they stop training they get fat very easily. They have very little muscle mass because their bodies have catabolized it in order to be able to run more efficiently.

Good to know. But I still maintain that if one enjoys running (or cycling or swimming) it is better to do that than to lift heavy weights for a month and then quit. Anyone who stops training after years of training will tend to get fat because people don't tend to adjust their diets. Your point is that dedicated long-distance runners will gain that weight more quickly -- fair enough. I have no idea so I'll take your word for it.

I still maintain that one can lose weight lifting smaller weights and doing cardio. The articles that I posted claim the same thing. It may not be the best way but it is a way.

Post #5: "GOOD GOD NO!! Lighter weights & more reps will do NOTHING for you but waste your time. And steady-state cardio will encourage your body to hang on to its fat." -- a bit overdramatic.

We can discuss this rationally without saying such-and-such is a waste of time. There are people who are dedicated swimmers, runners and cyclists who keep burning calories because they are exercising and if they have a good diet they won't gain weight. There are people who are fat and lose weight by running or swimming or cycling. If they enjoy it they'll keep it up and they'll keep their weight down (with proper attention to diet).

[Dirty Martini]

I've been saying all along, Mr Sun, that if you create a caloric deficit you're going to lose weight. You could be bouncing a ball all day long & lose weight.

ITA, the best exercise is one that works long term, motivates you, and encourages you to continue. But for the OP who is already strength training, your advice was misguided. Which then took us on a tangent.

[Mr. Sun]

I've been saying all along, Mr Sun, that if you create a caloric deficit you're going to lose weight. You could be bouncing a ball all day long & lose weight.

You were and you weren't:


GOOD GOD NO!! Lighter weights & more reps will do NOTHING for you but waste your time. And steady-state cardio will encourage your body to hang on to its fat.

My initial post may have been misguided but your initial post was less than accurate. Lighter weights and more reps will do SOMETHING for you -- it's not waste of time.

If you were a little less crabby in your first post we could've had a friendly discussion, lol. Now people think we are having a heated exchange. Anyway, I learned from this thread and hopefully others will too.

Have fun lifting. :up:

If you get built enough I'll put you in my thread "Excellence in Veg*n Athletics".


ITA, the best exercise is one that works long term, motivates you, and encourages you to continue. But for the OP who is already strength training, your advice was misguided. Which then took us on a tangent.

But it was a fun tangent. My guess is that the OP has realized that she HATES lifting heavy weights and is now going with the lighter weights and is really enjoying herself. She has adjusted her diet and the weight is coming off and she has never felt better in her life.

Now, who's up for some jumping jacks? :hamster:

[Starblossom]

Haha I can't resist responding. I don't know much about calories and weight loss and such, but I've read in many health articles that it's best to have a varied workout routine. The body DOES eventually adjust to whatever regular workout you give it. So maybe the OP would benefit from switching up her routine a bit, like replacing one of her walking/jogging days with something different like swimming, or biking, or some other form of cardiovascular exercise that she enjoys. Would that increase weight loss?

[Dirty Martini]

Probably a little bit, but it would be short-lived.

I still think it's mostly diet-related.