Compassionate training?

[nookle]

Hey all. Is it possible to train a dog without the use of physical deterrents? Choke chains, prong collars, etc? The thought of these things makes me cringe; my Father in Law - who is a dog trainer - insists that the choke collar, which he uses only for the initial training, doesn't hurt the dog - it's a startle/noise thing. I have a very hard time buying this. He has, however, been training dogs in his home forever, and his dogs are fantastically nice, friendly, happy, energetic and yes, well trained.

I have lots of time to think about it, but I know that in a year or two we are going to want to bring some dogs in from the shelter here, and I would really appreciate any advice, experience, opinions (yes, I did say opinions..:lol:), resources or links anyone could offer.

Thank you!

[Mrrple]

Food, love, and positive reinforcement?

[Animosity]

Positive reinforcement is much better them. Choke collars are negative reinforcment.

Give them LOTS of attention when they do something right, Give them treats, Let them play with their favorite toy, Etc. When they don't listen, Ignore them. They'll learn just as good as with negative reinforcment, Without the possibility of traumatizing them. (i've seen dogs afraid to go walking with their owners from choker collar injuries) If it comes to using one, Just make sure it's a 'tightening collar' vs a 'pinching collar' The ones that pinch HURT a lot more than the tightening ones.

[LovelyPerv]

The easiest dogs to train are the adult dogs that have lived in back yards their whole lives...and, they are also the least likely to be adopted.

You'd be doing them and yourself a HUGE favor. Generally (unless you have one with anxiety issues) a firm "NO!" is all it takes. I've seen a harsh word just break the hearts of these dogs. At most, I'd slap my own thigh for the sound and say "No."

Not all these dogs are the same, and some are going to be high-strung or hard-headed... But you'll really have the easiest training time taking a 3+ year old yard dog, and turning him/her into a spoiled rotten couch dog.

[kpickell]

clicker training

[Animosity]

The easiest dogs to train are the adult dogs that have lived in back yards their whole lives...and, they are also the least likely to be adopted.

You'd be doing them and yourself a HUGE favor. Generally (unless you have one with anxiety issues) a firm "NO!" is all it takes. I've seen a harsh word just break the hearts of these dogs. At most, I'd slap my own thigh for the sound and say "No."

Not all these dogs are the same, and some are going to be high-strung or hard-headed... But you'll really have the easiest training time taking a 3+ year old yard dog, and turning him/her into a spoiled rotten couch dog.


I agree. I wouldn't dare have attempted training my canines when they were pups. Can you say 'chaos'!? They just aren't very concerned with learning "tricks" at that point, They just want to play!

You should see the sadness in my Mother's dog Squirt when I tell him "NO" to something. It looks like he's lost his best friend... He listens after that. He gets over it quickly but still behaves. A loud CLICK can work well. Slapping your own body is a good way to get their attention without having to harm them.

I also agree about adopting older yard dogs. Most shelter dogs are overlooked because they seem "bad" due to wanting love so much. They sometimes get a little "over excited" from lack of attention, Sometimes they don't quite know how to act because they've never been given a lot of love. If they got it, They would be calm, Spolied, And your best friends. They have the ability to be wonderful, They just don't get the chance. You should totally go for one that needs 'a little extra work' they would thank you so much for it.

[LovelyPerv]

You should see the sadness in my Mother's dog Squirt when I tell him "NO" to something. It looks like he's lost his best friend... He listens after that. He gets over it quickly but still behaves. A loud CLICK can work well. Slapping your own body is a good way to get their attention without having to harm them.


Sounds like my Zorro (he came with that name). He gets SO terribly sad and frightened if I fuss at him for something... But, he's so well behaved (unlike my other dog) that I rarely have to call him on any of his behaviors.

One day...I'm not sure what happened. I was watching tv, and he was on the floor next to me... He stands up, walks over to my end table, and takes a potato chip (SO unlike him). As some horrible reflex, I reached down and spanked him on the butt. Once, but it made a 'pop' sound. I was horrified!!! I've never hit him before!!!

He ran into the bedroom, and I followed...apologizing the whole way. He curled up on my bed in a little ball and quivered... He was in a tight little ball, but his eyes were as wide as dinerplates. The closer I got to him, the wider they got. I reached down a lightly touched him with my fingertips, and he shut his eyes tightly and cringed really hard.

This was too much for me...I curled up around him, hugged him, and cried like a little baby. After about five minutes, he started giving me little kisses on my face... For the rest of the day, he seemed really down, and he was jumpy around me. I felt SO terrible.

Now, years later, he's fine... ...but to this day if I give him a treat other than dog food, he's not too sure if he's really allowed to take it. I have to place it in his mouth. If I just put it in his dish, or even hand it to him, he won't take it.

Anyways, sorry about my heartbreaking ramblings... But 'outside dogs' that have been deprived of human contact/shelter/comfort are really sensitive...and they want to please you SO badly.

(Edit: BTW..."Squirt" is an ADORABLE name!!!)

[lefty2026]

Yeah it depends a lot on the dog.

I put a choke collar on the pitbull (Emma) when I walk her, and you couldn't convince me that it hurts her. She doesn't flinch, she is solid muscle though, most dogs are not quite so solid. I put a choke collar on Licen only once and he only pulled a couple times. I won't use it on him again, as it's not neccessary. Emma sometimes tries to attack other dogs walking, so the choke collar helps me keep her in control. I also reward them periodically when they don't pull on the leash.

My husky I had when I was a kid, was the most trained dog I ever had as far as learning all the tricks. The choke collar meant he was "working" and he never seemed to mind it. He went to training school and the trainer required them. He got Lymphoma though and started having breathing problems very young. It might have happenned any way. He was happy and a very good dog, but I always wish I had been more gentle with his throat.

Neither of the dogs now have ever been hit by me or my boyfriend. The most "negative" way we discipline the dogs is pinning them on their backs, if they are being "challenging" or scary, and don't listen when we say no. I actually think this helped Emma a lot. She was used to being beat and was really skiddish. Pinning her shows that we are dominant, but also that we won't hurt her. She's calmed down a lot, and most her behavior problems are fading away. 99% of the time, if we just say no, they look heartbroken and put themselves in their cages.

Most behavior reinforcement we use is positive. Teaching tricks, rewarding them after being good on a walk, or for being gentle with the ferrets...or ferret :(.

So anyway, I think the discipline should be tailored to the dog, fair and consistent. Positive reinforcement should be used as much as possible, but your dog will sometimes mess up and he needs to know. Doesn't mean you have to hurt him or be cruel. I wouldn't put a choke collar on a dog that can be controlled without one.

[nookle]

Well - the way I understand it, think in this instance the choke collar is used ONLY during the training - a period of about 2 weeks of full time intensive training. This would be the only really negative reinforcement tool - the rest is comprised of positive reinforcement and establishing dominance. After the training period there is no further 'need' for the collar, and it is never used, and indeed, all of the dogs that I've seen that had been trained under my father in law never used one again.

[Fritemare]

I've always used a shake can for when a dog does something bad rather than a choke collar. It doesn't really work for aggressive dogs that are trying to attack something though. I just use it when ever a dog has an accident to startle them, or when they are doing something they shouldn't. Worked really well on keeping Kira out of the trash. Shaking the can like a maniac and saying "NO" startles the hell out of most dogs lol.

Easiest way to make a shake can: Take an old coffee can or coke can and fill it with old screws, pennies, whatever clinks. Seal the top off with a lid of some sort. Easiest training tool ever :P

[nookle]

I've always used a shake can for when a dog does something bad rather than a choke collar. It doesn't really work for aggressive dogs that are trying to attack something though. I just use it when ever a dog has an accident to startle them, or when they are doing something they shouldn't. Worked really well on keeping Kira out of the trash. Shaking the can like a maniac and saying "NO" startles the hell out of most dogs lol.

Easiest way to make a shake can: Take an old coffee can or coke can and fill it with old screws, pennies, whatever clinks. Seal the top off with a lid of some sort. Easiest training tool ever :P

Yeah - I had been thinking of something like this, because if the choke chain is mainly used for the surprise and the noise, (it's not yanked on hard, it's jerked) then it seems that something like this could work in its place.

[lefty2026]

My mom always kept a can of marbles for dog training. The dogs hate it, but its better than choking them :)

[nookle]

My mom always kept a can of marbles for dog training. The dogs hate it, but its better than choking them :)

I agree with this, but the FIL insists that you would/should never yank on it hard enough to choke them - ever. I don't know...

[Jinga]

Training methods definately have different effects on different dogs. I have a high-energy, pain-tolerant, easily scared dog. She was petrified of the clicker and would have completely lost it if I had shaken a can of pennies at her. When she was younger, I tried and failed at a choke collar, then tried and failed with a pinch collar. She didn't care at all about the pinch collar and pulled as hard as ever, so I don't think pain was an issue. I then tried with limited success with a flat collar (regular buckle collar). It wasn't until I learned to correctly use a regular chain choke collar that I had success. The trick was the placement of the collar (high on the neck just below ears and chin, the dog should hold his/her head high), having a very short lead (dog directly next to my relaxed arm) and quickly (and lightly) pulling up on the leash to correct. If a dog is actually choking on a choke chain, either it's placement is too low (low on neck near shoulders) or the pull and release method is not being used properly. You should also not be pulling so hard that you hurt the dog. A gentle dog without a lot of muscle around his/her neck will likely respond with a lighter touch than a big ole muscly dog. A person needs to adjust to their dog. While, my dogs are still not perfect I have had dramtic results in the past year or two. I can walk any two of my dogs without trouble and will sometimes go out on a limb and walk all three (100-lb Golden, 75lb Husky-Shepard, 50lb ball of muscle and energy) by myself. No injuries so far :p

[lefty2026]

I agree with this, but the FIL insists that you would/should never yank on it hard enough to choke them - ever. I don't know...

Agreed, but you won't be the only one pulling on the leash.

[mrosev14]

I honestly think it depends on the dog. My Saint Bernard uses a pinch collar while walking and training with her big trainer Pepe. She has aggression issues and this was the best control. We basically weigh the same and this way she was able to go out in public with me without fear of her eating someone. Now, when I get my next dog; hopefully a puppy I wont use any type of negative reenforcement.

[Wolfie]

Most behavior reinforcement we use is positive. Teaching tricks, rewarding them after being good on a walk, or for being gentle with the ferrets...or ferret :(.

So anyway, I think the discipline should be tailored to the dog, fair and consistent. Positive reinforcement should be used as much as possible, but your dog will sometimes mess up and he needs to know. Doesn't mean you have to hurt him or be cruel. I wouldn't put a choke collar on a dog that can be controlled without one.

That pretty much sums up my opinion. Pinch collars, despite the name, aren't cruel if used correctly, and IMO some dogs need the extra control. I have 2 dogs I had from puppies and if you train 'em properly from a young age, it's easy to do without a pinch collar. However, get a wild adolescent dog from a shelter or who was dumped at the vet, who has never had any training and who weighs almost as much as you do, and you might need the extra control. Before I ever used a pinch collar, I put it on and gave myself a "correction."

I also bought an e-collar for my professional tire chaser, and again I tested the thing on myself before I put it on the dog.

Positive reinforcement ONLY probably works great if you have one or two happy-go-lucky, get-along-with-everyone dogs whose only goal in life is to please their human. However, when you have up to 6 dogs including a couple (or four) who sometimes like to pick a fight or stalk the cat when things are getting boring, sometimes you need to use more than treats and praise. :p

[nookle]

.... if you train 'em properly from a young age...

And for this you use/do.....? Training the puppy well from the get go so as to not use any kind of 'corrective' device is our goal, and Hub knows well how to do this - using a choke collar during the training process. After that, it goes in the trash. Is this also your experience?

[Wolfie]

Training methods definately have different effects on different dogs. I have a high-energy, pain-tolerant, easily scared dog. She was petrified of the clicker and would have completely lost it if I had shaken a can of pennies at her. When she was younger, I tried and failed at a choke collar, then tried and failed with a pinch collar. She didn't care at all about the pinch collar and pulled as hard as ever, so I don't think pain was an issue. I then tried with limited success with a flat collar (regular buckle collar). It wasn't until I learned to correctly use a regular chain choke collar that I had success. The trick was the placement of the collar (high on the neck just below ears and chin, the dog should hold his/her head high), having a very short lead (dog directly next to my relaxed arm) and quickly (and lightly) pulling up on the leash to correct. If a dog is actually choking on a choke chain, either it's placement is too low (low on neck near shoulders) or the pull and release method is not being used properly. You should also not be pulling so hard that you hurt the dog. A gentle dog without a lot of muscle around his/her neck will likely respond with a lighter touch than a big ole muscly dog. A person needs to adjust to their dog. While, my dogs are still not perfect I have had dramtic results in the past year or two. I can walk any two of my dogs without trouble and will sometimes go out on a limb and walk all three (100-lb Golden, 75lb Husky-Shepard, 50lb ball of muscle and energy) by myself. No injuries so far :p

I somehow missed this before but I totally agree. Different methods for different dogs.

[Wolfie]

And for this you use/do.....? Training the puppy well from the get go so as to not use any kind of 'corrective' device is our goal, and Hub knows well how to do this - using a choke collar during the training process. After that, it goes in the trash. Is this also your experience?

Do you mean training to walk on a leash without pulling? Best way to do that is stop every single time the dog pulls and then turn and walk the other way. You might be walking in circles at first, but he'll get the idea eventually. Use plenty of treats when he does walk without pulling. Don't let pulling pay off, i.e., don't let him pull you and get to what he wants, even once. If it works once, he'll try it again.

Have you thought about a head collar like a Halti or Gentle Leader? Some people/dogs have great success with those. I didn't like them for my huskies because they didn't feel like they gave enough control. Teaching adult huskies not to pull is a bit more difficult than teaching most other breeds, and it just felt like they were going to get loose on me, or break the small snap that comes on the Halti. But those are huskies, not your average dog. Many people have great success with head collars.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=875

http://www.muttropolis.com/products2.cfm?id=2273&gclid=CK-ayvKbjZICFQERPAodKD7K-w

IMO, the Halti is easier to fit than the Gentle Leader. An improperly fit head collar will drive the dog nuts. It also comes with a backup snap that attaches to your dog's regular collar, so if the dog gets the Halti off, he's not loose. The Gentle Leader doesn't have that.

Also, if you get a young puppy, socialize, socialize, socialize. Get him used to other dogs, friendly ones of course, cats, kids, men, women, people in hats and glasses, people on bikes and in wheelchairs, loud noises, every situation you can think of from a young age. I think that is the best thing you can do for a puppy, so he grows up into a normal adult dog without all kinds of issues.

[mrosev14]

Do you mean training to walk on a leash without pulling? Best way to do that is stop every single time the dog pulls and then turn and walk the other way. You might be walking in circles at first, but he'll get the idea eventually. Use plenty of treats when he does walk without pulling.

Also, if you get a young puppy, socialize, socialize, socialize. Get him used to other dogs, friendly ones of course, cats, kids, men, women, people in hats and glasses, people on bikes and in wheelchairs, loud noises, every situation you can think of from a young age. I think that is the best thing you can do for a puppy, so he grows up into a normal adult dog without all kinds of issues.

Agreed! :up:

[Wolfie]

For whatever reason, I'm being told I don't have permission to save changes when I try to edit. :p So I wanted to add for best results, especially with a young dog, work with him a few minutes several times a day, then let him rest and play. Don't do an hour-long training session or he'll suffer puppy burnout.

And I need to add for anyone thinking of getting a dog, The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell is a must if you really want to understand how the dog brain works.

[Glitterpixie]

Positive reinforcement ONLY probably works great if you have one or two happy-go-lucky, get-along-with-everyone dogs whose only goal in life is to please their human. However, when you have up to 6 dogs including a couple (or four) who sometimes like to pick a fight or stalk the cat when things are getting boring, sometimes you need to use more than treats and praise.

Not the case at all. Coming from a familly of animal trainers I have seen pretty much every method there is going to train a dog. I base all my training around the laws of operant conditioning (the theoretical framework round which all animal behavour is governed) and lean very strongly towards positive reinforcement training. This means my tool of choice is not a rattle bottle or a choke chain but a reward marker such as a clicker or a lightflash to allow me to shape pretty much any behavour I want to a reliable and high level. By these methods I have trained both handler dependent dogs and non-handler dependent dogs to an equally high level without any reason to turn to anything else. In fact for most dogs praise from the handler is not enough and something more rewarding such as a food treat or toy is required. For issues like high prey drive (cat stalking) or dog aggression, an instant fix is not going to happen over night and a behavour needs to be developed step by step over a period of time appropriate to the dog. Yes it takes alot longer than positive punishment methods but in the end you get a behavour that is more reliable and more pleasant to train for both dog and owner.

However unlike some people I do not think that tools such as e-collars, prong collars, shake bottles and choke chains are cruel or bad. What some people tend to do though, is use them as a way of covering up their own poor skills or as a quick fix rather than doing proper research. After doing my research and getting hands on experience I will always reach for the clicker first as I prefer to work in partnership with my dogs rather than dominating them.


And I need to add for anyone thinking of getting a dog, The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell is a must if you really want to understand how the dog brain works.

Im not a fan of Jan fennel at all. Her theories revolve around dogs seeing humans as part of their pack which is not something I buy into. Dogs are not stupid and realise that we are a different species. A dogs behavour is complex and there is no way we can replicate the subtle signals that they give each other. I once met a border collie raised from 8 weeks on her methods and it was so sad to see that it made totally no attempt at greeting or interacting with its owner for fear of being 'ignored'.

Some good sites on positive reinforcement training - http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/aboutclick.htm
http://www.clickertraining.com/what_is_clicker_training

[Wolfie]

So as you can see, nookle, everyone's got a different opinion. You get to choose! :p

Glitterpixie, I agree with you that dogs aren't stupid enough to think that humans are the same species, but I believe most will gladly accept a human as pack leader, and in fact if dogs are going to live in the human world, ideally the human needs to be the pack leader. Her methods and Cesar Millan's methods have made the biggest, most noticeable difference in my dogs, more than any amount of dog training could do. (Now the fur will really fly. I mentioned Cesar Millan. :p) I believe in using positive reinforcement and use those methods the majority of the time, but Cesar Millan and Jan Fennell go beyond that and into the dog's mind. I pick and choose ideas and methods from both of them because while they have a lot of similarities, they also have their differences.

And while I will never be as fluent in speaking dog as my dogs are, I think is is possible for humans to learn Dog As A Second Language. I use dog calming signals with nervous dogs at the shelter or dog park and it makes a difference. (Turrid Rugaas, whose name I'm sure I just screwed up, is another favorite of mine.) And the other day, I was awakened from a sound sleep by one of my dogs telling me another dog was outside. It was a large, gray dog and in my half-asleep state, I thought it was my sister's dog and that he'd gotten out of my fence somehow. She drops him off in the morning on her way to work, my dogs tell me he's there, and I get up and let him inside and stumble back to bed.

So I go charging outside thinking her dog is loose and realize it's not her dog, it's 2 dogs from a street over that got loose, and the gray one did not like the way I came charging from the house. I was instantly wide awake at that point and sent him signals in "dog" to tell him I was no threat. He sniffed at me and backed off. (And then proceeded to chase the poor garbage collector.) So it is possible to learn those subtle signals, even though we'll never be quite as fluent in them.

One of my dogs was the star of her positive reinforcement dog training class I took her to at 6 months old. She even showed up one of the instructor's older dogs who'd had a lot more practice. She was the absolutely perfect dog, any dog owner's dream, until it came to allowing other female adult dogs into the house or yard. She took issue with my older female dog I had before I got her, and that's not something I like to even think about much. That was several years ago and it's when I first found out about Jan Fennell and learning to think like a dog. I visited several dog boards and asked for book recommendations, and by far her book was the most popular recommendation. My little, old girl has passed on now, but it's thanks to Jan Fennell and Cesar Millan that I was finally able to get the dream dog and her sister to stop fighting with my female husky, who joined the pack long after the two sisters. (Dream dog's sister doesn't have such strong territorial dog-aggression issues on her own, but if her sister gets into a fight, she's more than eager to jump in and back her up.) It's taken a lot of time, and there are still times when I keep them separate and probably always will, like at feeding time or when the kids are over, because the kids get all the dogs super-excited, plus it's hard to watch all the dogs for those subtle signals that say they're about to fight when I'm trying to watch kids too. And I don't want the kids in the middle of a dog fight. But at least they no longer try to kill the husky at any chance they get. And I'm serious when I say they would fight to kill before.

Anyway, dogs are like kids. There's more than one way to raise/train them, more than one book to seek advice from, and as long as they're not being abused, I see no reason to argue about it.

This thread is starting to remind me of those "to spank or not to spank" threads in the raising vegetarian children section. :p

[havocjohn]

Not the case at all. Coming from a familly of animal trainers I have seen pretty much every method there is going to train a dog. I base all my training around the laws of operant conditioning (the theoretical framework round which all animal behavour is governed) and lean very strongly towards positive reinforcement training. This means my tool of choice is not a rattle bottle or a choke chain but a reward marker such as a clicker or a lightflash to allow me to shape pretty much any behavour I want to a reliable and high level. By these methods I have trained both handler dependent dogs and non-handler dependent dogs to an equally high level without any reason to turn to anything else. In fact for most dogs praise from the handler is not enough and something more rewarding such as a food treat or toy is required. For issues like high prey drive (cat stalking) or dog aggression, an instant fix is not going to happen over night and a behavour needs to be developed step by step over a period of time appropriate to the dog. Yes it takes alot longer than positive punishment methods but in the end you get a behavour that is more reliable and more pleasant to train for both dog and owner.

However unlike some people I do not think that tools such as e-collars, prong collars, shake bottles and choke chains are cruel or bad. What some people tend to do though, is use them as a way of covering up their own poor skills or as a quick fix rather than doing proper research. After doing my research and getting hands on experience I will always reach for the clicker first as I prefer to work in partnership with my dogs rather than dominating them.



Im not a fan of Jan fennel at all. Her theories revolve around dogs seeing humans as part of their pack which is not something I buy into. Dogs are not stupid and realise that we are a different species. A dogs behavour is complex and there is no way we can replicate the subtle signals that they give each other. I once met a border collie raised from 8 weeks on her methods and it was so sad to see that it made totally no attempt at greeting or interacting with its owner for fear of being 'ignored'.

Some good sites on positive reinforcement training - http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/aboutclick.htm
http://www.clickertraining.com/what_is_clicker_training

I haven't read anything by Jan Fennel (at least not that I am aware of) so I can't speak to her theroy, however, a pack is a family unit, as such I find it odd that someone that claims to have all this dog experince doesn't buy into dogs accepting humans into their family (pack).

A dog's behavior is not very complex when one has a lot of experince (as you claim) with canines. Their language on the other hand can be to someone that is not very observant.