Eggs - I don't know what to do. Please don't flame me.

[piratemoon]

I've often said that if I know where my eggs are sourced from, and I'm happy with it, then I might eat them again. I've been vegan for at least 2 years now, and I would still continue to eat this way with baked goods and things where I don't know where the eggs might have come from.

However...

My dad has found a farm where the animals are treated really well, and I'd like to support this way of farming, if we have to have farming at all. So I don't know what to do. It has really made me think about eggs. I'll never eat dairy produce again, I know that, but this has really made me think.

I don't know if this is the right place to put this thread in, but I just didn't know what else to do.

[abroadinSacto]

I've often said that if I know where my eggs are sourced from, and I'm happy with it, then I might eat them again. I've been vegan for at least 2 years now, and I would still continue to eat this way with baked goods and things where I don't know where the eggs might have come from.

However...

My dad has found a farm where the animals are treated really well, and I'd like to support this way of farming, if we have to have farming at all. So I don't know what to do. It has really made me think about eggs. I'll never eat dairy produce again, I know that, but this has really made me think.

I don't know if this is the right place to put this thread in, but I just didn't know what else to do.

I think you pretty much answered it yourself, where I highlighted. We don't have to have animal farming. If you buy these eggs, then you're supporting the industry that doesn't need to exist. It sounds like you're just rationalizing buying eggs.

[Sevenseas]

It's good that you've put it into the vegan forum, because that means we can say anything we want about consuming eggs :)

But anyway, what happens to male chicks on that farm, do you know?

[AutomaticMan]

Eating eggs perpetuates the view that animals are commodities, whether you like it or not.
If you believe animals should live free from pain and suffering; free from exploitation, then you must live vegan. And vegans do not eat eggs.
All farm systems are based on capitalism, and thus always prioritise profits over life, so as soon as the cost of keeping an animal alive becomes too much for the lovely farmers, they extinguish the animal's life. Male chicks, 'spent' hens, surplus roosters. All "dispatched" and either thrown away or eaten.

You really do not need to eat eggs, either. There's no justification for it.
I mean, I could eat eggs if I want, hell, there's eggs in my house from my hens right now. Eggs that I've boiled so I can feed a sick hen the shell. So why don't I? Because I believe in animal rights, and to be consistent with my believes that animals have rights, I must be vegan*.

I hope you decide to stay vegan.


*Phew, I can actually say it in this forum.

[IntheFlesh?]

Eating eggs perpetuates the view that animals are commodities, whether you like it or not.
If you believe animals should live free from pain and suffering; free from exploitation, then you must live vegan. And vegans do not eat eggs.
All farm systems are based on capitalism, and thus always prioritise profits over life, so as soon as the cost of keeping an animal alive becomes too much for the lovely farmers, they extinguish the animal's life. Male chicks, 'spent' hens, surplus roosters. All "dispatched" and either thrown away or eaten.

You really do not need to eat eggs, either. There's no justification for it.
I mean, I could eat eggs if I want, hell, there's eggs in my house from my hens right now. Eggs that I've boiled so I can feed a sick hen the shell. So why don't I? Because I believe in animal rights, and to be consistent with my believes that animals have rights, I must be vegan*.

I hope you decide to stay vegan.


*Phew, I can actually say it in this forum.

Yes, exactly.

The bare bones of it are that if you can stay vegan, you should; in any place animals are exploited, there will be suffering. It may be out of sight, but it is still happening.

[Diana]

One question: Why do you absolutely want to eat eggs??? One can live quite happily and healthily without eating them.

Eggs always come from exploited eggs.

Happy eggs, happy meat, happy milk??? There is NO such thing. Somewhere the male chicks are being killed. The hens have been bred specifically to OVERLAY eggs.

Animals should NOT be considered our property, and they should not be used as ressources. They live for their own reasons. Not to serve our selfish tastebuds.

[danakscully64]

My dad has found a farm where the animals are treated really well, and I'd like to support this way of farming, if we have to have farming at all. So I don't know what to do. It has really made me think about eggs. I'll never eat dairy produce again, I know that, but this has really made me think.


The decision is completely up to you. I wouldn't do it personally. If I was a vegan for 2 years, I'd stick to that. I'd be very proud too because I have yet to successfully convert all the way over.

It is difficult because I understand what you're saying about supporting that way of farming... it's kinda a catch 22. You don't want to support the meat/dairy/egg industry at all BUT if you don't at least somewhat encourage smaller farms where the animals are kept better, it won't stay in business and more huge, cruel factories will take over. :furious:

You'll find that if you do decide to eat eggs again, they won't be as good as they were before you went vegan. Seriously.

[AutomaticMan]

It is difficult because I understand what you're saying about supporting that way of farming... it's kinda a catch 22. You don't want to support the meat/dairy/egg industry at all BUT if you don't at least somewhat encourage smaller farms where the animals are kept better, it won't stay in business and more huge, cruel factories will take over. :furious:


Whilst I appreciate your passion, I think that outlook is fatally flawed.

Encouraging smaller farms is still encouraging the oppression and murder of nonhuman animals. The best thing we can do for the animals is to live Vegan, eschew all exploitation and spread the word.

[danakscully64]

Whilst I appreciate your passion, I think that outlook is fatally flawed.

Encouraging smaller farms is still encouraging the oppression and murder of nonhuman animals. The best thing we can do for the animals is to live Vegan, eschew all exploitation and spread the word.

You still fail to see that other people are still going to eat meat, eggs, and dairy, so even if you're vegan, watching small farms shut down isn't going to fix anything. You can preach from the roof of your house to go vegan, but how many people are really going to listen? I would much rather there be more smaller farms where they are treated more humanely than a monopoly of huge factories. In reality, there is never going to be a time in history where everyone in the world is vegan. I encourage people to educate themselves and make the decision to go vegan, but I can't force anyone to do it. It's best to encourage those who are going to continue to consume animal products to make better decisions on where they get their animal products.

I called the situation a Catch-22 for a reason.

[Jon_Veggie]

I think AutomaticMan and Diana have hit the nail on the head.

Eating eggs = not vegan.

Animals are not machines and are not ours to use as property or as a means of production.

[AutomaticMan]

You still fail to see that other people are still going to eat meat, eggs, and dairy, so even if you're vegan, watching small farms shut down isn't going to fix anything. You can preach from the roof of your house to go vegan, but how many people are really going to listen? I would much rather there be more smaller farms where they are treated more humanely than a monopoly of huge factories. In reality, there is never going to be a time in history where everyone in the world is vegan. I encourage people to educate themselves and make the decision to go vegan, but I can't force anyone to do it. It's best to encourage those who are going to continue to consume animal products to make better decisions on where they get their animal products.

No, I don't fail to see it at all.
But I'm not prepared to compromise on someone else's life to make myself feel better about the rampant exploitation. Ethically speaking, I see no difference between a life being ended on a small farm, with lovely farmer scum and ever-so-caring murderers and the same life being robbed in a mechanised, factory farm. Both are equally wrong. Yes, the quality of the miserably short lives of nonhumans is more-than-likely better on a small-scale farm than a huge factory, but they are both nonetheless oppressive industries built upon the broken and bloody backs of nonhuman animals that I will never promote, in any way.

It is never best to encourage anybody to consume animal products. I'd never compromise on a human's life, and I'd never do it for a nonhumans' either.

Your defeatist attitude is quite saddening. We're dealing with an integral part of society here, just like human slavery, and it took thousands of years of efforts to abolish that. One thing that will never advance the abolitionist cause is compromising and supporting the enemy.

[Fromper]

You still fail to see that other people are still going to eat meat, eggs, and dairy, so even if you're vegan, watching small farms shut down isn't going to fix anything. You can preach from the roof of your house to go vegan, but how many people are really going to listen? I would much rather there be more smaller farms where they are treated more humanely than a monopoly of huge factories. In reality, there is never going to be a time in history where everyone in the world is vegan. I encourage people to educate themselves and make the decision to go vegan, but I can't force anyone to do it. It's best to encourage those who are going to continue to consume animal products to make better decisions on where they get their animal products.

I called the situation a Catch-22 for a reason.

While I agree with you about the realities of life vs the theoretical purity of veganism, I disagree with the sentence I bolded above. I really do believe that world-wide veganism is a goal worth working towards, because it may really happen some day. It'll probably take a few hundred years to get there, but I think ruling out the possibility would be a mistake.

--Fromper
:juggle:

[danakscully64]

While I agree with you about the realities of life vs the theoretical purity of veganism, I disagree with the sentence I bolded above. I really do believe that world-wide veganism is a goal worth working towards, because it may really happen some day. It'll probably take a few hundred years to get there, but I think ruling out the possibility would be a mistake.

--Fromper
:juggle:

I don't know... about 95% of the people I've met in my life have been so hardcore meat eaters that I don't see them changing. Plus, it's common for people to pass down their beliefs to their kids. It's REALLY sad to see. Who knows, it could possibly happen, but even 200 years from now, I don't see that happening :( People (in general) are too ignorant and selfish.

I'll be back in a bit to reply to the post above.

[Jon_Veggie]

I think veganism will eventually become as common and as widespread as vegetarianism.

To be honest, I don't think there will be a time in history free from murder, rape, war, prejudice and all the other horrors created by the human race.

[Earthly Delight]

Ok back to the origional subject :P (Though a thread on do you think veganism will ever be widespread/do you ever thing the world will be 100% vegan would be interesting!)

I think you're just taking a step in the wrong direction, however having the contact information and keeping an eye on this farm can be very beneficial. You've already cut out all animal suffering from your life, so incorporating eggs back into your diet is a step backwards really. HOWEVER; you will inevitably run into egg eaters (of the vegetarian or omniverous sort) who will not budge towards veganism. Having this farm as a resource to promote to them would be useful, and a step in the right direction, you see what I mean?

That way you are helping out what you feel is a positive farm, and their demand will shift from common eggs to more humane eggs, which will hopefully send a message to egg farmers, and help avoid some suffering. I know a bit north of where i live there is an animal farm that takes care to raise their animals according to the ideals of free range and while I'll never eat meat, when I meet someone who is pretty lost to turning vegetarian I ask them to at least buy from this farm as that way there is at least a miniscule amount less of suffering in the world, if yaseewhatimean.

[Irizary]

What happens to the male chicks that are born when they are getting more females hatched to become layers? What happens to the hens when they stop producing eggs? How often do they lay and are enough eggs fed back to them in order to make up for the depleted nutrients hens suffer from thanks to humans breeding them to overlay?

All those must be answered to ascertain whether or not it may be ethical to consume these eggs. Buying them is yet another issue. It being non-vegan and not in line with animal rights is another.

I think you should get the questions above answered very specifically (like, when the hens go to a slaughterhouse, what kind of slaughterhouse and how do they get there...). I believe then that the farm will not look so humane as it does at first. Commercial animal farming is never really "humane" to the animals, when you look at the whole life cycle (from the male chicks who are killed in horrible ways, to the spent hen in the slaughterhouse). Even if some piece is better than factory farming, or typical small farm, there is guaranteed to be something terrible along the way...those animals ultimately exist to make a profit for someone.

[froggythefrog]

Piratemoon: Why were/are you vegan? I think that's the main question you need to answer to know whether this presents a situation where you'd start eating eggs again.

Like others have mentioned, you want to consider where the farm got its eggs and the breeding of the hens. Unless these hens are some kind of "heirloom breed", they're most likely bred to overlay, meaning whether or not we treat them well now, they've possibly had a medical problem bred into them. :(

[Sevenseas]

it's kinda a catch 22. You don't want to support the meat/dairy/egg industry at all BUT if you don't at least somewhat encourage smaller farms where the animals are kept better, it won't stay in business and more huge, cruel factories will take over. :furious:I don't understand this reasoning. If you increase the demand for "small farm eggs", how will that lessen the demand for "factory farm eggs"?

[Eclipse]

Piratemoon: Why were/are you vegan? I think that's the main question you need to answer to know whether this presents a situation where you'd start eating eggs again.

Like others have mentioned, you want to consider where the farm got its eggs and the breeding of the hens. Unless these hens are some kind of "heirloom breed", they're most likely bred to overlay, meaning whether or not we treat them well now, they've possibly had a medical problem bred into them. :(

Most of them have a medical problem breed into them, laying so many eggs is highly unnatural and leads to health problems from loss of nutrients.

[PneumaticJawz78]

So long as the animals are happy, I don't see a problem.

Listen, chickens are domesticated animals and are pretty much stuck with humans, anyway. Can't undo this. And they're going to lay eggs because that's how they're built. I'm sorry, but if they're exploited for their "labor", who's going to really know about it, the hens or us?

Exploitation isn't really the issue to me as the word doesn't affect, say, a handful of hens in your backyard that happen to be bringing you some eggs. Where will the eggs go if they aren't used?

If the male chicks are killed, then you don't want to be supporting such a system. If it's just, as I said before, a few hens doing what they do and being quite happy doing it, then I say go for it. Personally, I love eggs, and if they were brought to the public in a proper way then I would use them often. *Shrug*

[Irizary]

So long as the animals are happy, I don't see a problem.

Listen, chickens are domesticated animals and are pretty much stuck with humans, anyway. Can't undo this. And they're going to lay eggs because that's how they're built. I'm sorry, but if they're exploited for their "labor", who's going to really know about it, the hens or us?

Exploitation isn't really the issue to me as the word doesn't affect, say, a handful of hens in your backyard that happen to be bringing you some eggs. Where will the eggs go if they aren't used?

The OP is talking about BUYING eggs, not having hens in his/her backyard.

Buying eggs and eating them supports the issues you see here: http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showpost.php?p=1880207&postcount=18

Just how "happy" are those hens going to be when they're crammed onto a transport truck and are hung up by their feet at a slaughter house? Continuing to breed and use hens for their eggs keeps all the inevitable misery going.


If the male chicks are killed, then you don't want to be supporting such a system. If it's just, as I said before, a few hens doing what they do and being quite happy doing it, then I say go for it. Personally, I love eggs, and if they were brought to the public in a proper way then I would use them often. *Shrug*

I think the only real way to avoid supporting direct responsiblity for killed male chicks is to have rescued hens, not purchased ones. However, when you eat eggs and by doing so promote the idea that it's just too hard to live without them, then that promotes the system where about 99% of people feel that way too - and they all can't be rescued hens.

[Diana]

I think veganism will eventually become as common and as widespread as vegetarianism.



This will be helped greatly by the very serious food and energy shortages that the world will soon be facing. There are definite signs that even people who do NOT think animals should have rights, are realising that raisins animals for food is not going to viable in the long term.

Prices of food are going to rise a lot in the next few years. This will cause social unrest which the governments do not want. So either they are going to HEAVILY subsidise the food industries, or they will slowly withdraw their support.

When that time comes, we must use this opportunity to get our vegan message across. We must be ready to fight with all our might and with all our energy.

We should be doing the groundwork now by writing regularly to newspapers when they publish an article about the future of food and rising prices.

[Diana]

And I would still like to know why people (not only the OP) ask this question regularly on vegetarian/vegan boards. I cannot understand why they have this kind of attraction to eating eggs.

Why is it important for these people to eat eggs?????????? I mean, it's not like they're going to die or fall sick if they don't.

[AutomaticMan]

Listen, chickens are domesticated animals and are pretty much stuck with humans, anyway. Can't undo this. And they're going to lay eggs because that's how they're built. I'm sorry, but if they're exploited for their "labor", who's going to really know about it, the hens or us?

You cannot justifying using them on the basis that human beings have domesticated and enslaved them to make their use more efficient; that's absurd.


Exploitation isn't really the issue to me as the word doesn't affect, say, a handful of hens in your backyard that happen to be bringing you some eggs. Where will the eggs go if they aren't used?

See, they're not bringing you some eggs, you're taking them. There is indeed a difference. The hens would eat them if you cracked them for them (or they'd crack them themselves), which is certainly better than a human taking them and munching on them.


If the male chicks are killed, then you don't want to be supporting such a system. If it's just, as I said before, a few hens doing what they do and being quite happy doing it, then I say go for it. Personally, I love eggs, and if they were brought to the public in a proper way then I would use them often. *Shrug*

The key point is eating eggs isn't vegan. And if we're serious about animal rights we have to be vegans. I don't know if you're serious about AR or not, and I've come to realise that on this place you can't assume somebody actually gives a rat's arse about animals, so I won't. But if you do, then you can't carry on eating animal products. As I and others have said at least 9864500 times, Veganism is the moral baseline of the AR position, nothing less is morally acceptable.

Oh, and yeah, this has nothing to do with my argument, but eggs are periods. What is more perverse than eating a period?
Eating a period from another species.

[LovelyPerv]

*holds lighter under Piratemoon*

Consider yourself FLAMED! :evil:

Anyways, everyone has their own feelings. While I personally would never buy/raise eggs, I am a firm believer in "Every dollar you spend casts a vote."

The real question is, what do you want to vote for. It's a good thing to vote for small farming, but do you want to vote for live-animal farming. It's up to you. I see positives either way.

Still though, it would be good to find out what happens to the male chicks (assuming there are fertilized eggs there, or that the guy goes through a lot of chickens - causing him to have to receive in 'shipments'), etc...

Maybe you could go see for yourself. Just show up with a bowl of some kind of chicken-treat and ask if you can go 'treat' the chickens. Worth a shot, and you'll be able to smell their living conditions, see if they have mites, make sure their faces, eyes, nose, etc are clear, and that they are not pecking each other's heads to bits.