Problems with wool...?

[PneumaticJawz78]

So what's up with the sheep and wool industry, anyway? Are all sheep bred for wool likely going to be slaughtered for food (lambs in particular)? Are some farms going to use the animals for wool but never meat?

Because, to be honest, I see no problem in wearing wool if all the sheep have to endure is shearing (this is of course and 'if'). They probably don't enjoy it, but it could be worse for them and I think they shake it off pretty quickly. *?

[*AHIMSA*]

Because, to be honest, I see no problem in wearing wool if all the sheep have to endure is shearing (this is of course and 'if'). They probably don't enjoy it, but it could be worse for them and I think they shake it off pretty quickly. *?

Yeah, for the same reasons, I think I should shave your head because, although you probably won't enjoy it, it could be worse for you and I think you'll shake it off pretty quickly.

Think about it in those terms for a moment and check in with how you feel about it.

:sheep: :sheep: :sheep:

[Saz]

I don't know anything about how that particular industry works, but I still avoid wool.

I know that we bred sheep to be THAT wooly, but what I wondered was now that they've become so fluffy, do they NEED to be shorn in summer to avoid overheating? I know wool is still a product, or at best 'by-product', of an exploitive industry and thus I wouldn't buy it. But I'm still curious about whether it is a necessary thing to do regardless of whether the farmers sell the wool or not.

[Lucious]

If you justify the fact that they are only bred for wool, then you could justify that dairy cows are bred for milk. Either way they are being exploited. I'm sure we would all love to live on a farm and routinely get a shave and later end up being meat on someone's table. Not a fun life.

[Animosity]

If you consider it from a welarest point of view think about the fact that they are bred to be more wooly than normal, They will end up as meat, They will endure a miserable life, If they have to be transported they'll suffer even more. They are sheered with no care, They get horrible injuries as a result. Think of it from an equal rights point of view and add to it that they are being exploited and treated like a product and a machine.

Here's the whole story on why wool is wrong.
http://www.downbound.com/Wool_s/271.htm

[raefactor]

from an environmental point of view, those sheep exist pretty much only to provide wool or be eaten. Because they exist only for that they take up resources that could be used to feed developing countries (they're probably fed with foreign grain taken from hungry families) and the process contributes to all sorts of environmental problems.

It's still supporting the industry. That's the main thing wrong with it. If this were a couple of millenia ago and we didn't have good alternatives to wool and it got really cold and the sheep existed anyways, it might be another story. Of course, in that kind of situation most of us probably could not be vegan anyways. But it comes back down to supply and demand, and that's why most vegans don't support it.

[Matthew]

Sheep have fat rolls that farmers often cut off. Yes, they slice off a part of the sheep, so they don't get certain kinds of flies and ticks under the fat rolls.

It's absolutely cruel. Imagine having your love handles cut off.

Nowthen, if YOU had a sheep as a pet, they need shorn every so often, or the weight of the wool can damage their body. Does that mean you can TAKE the hair and turn it into a product? No.

You'd be just as guilty as the Nazis who took the shaven hair of concentration camp victims and put them into the seats of Volkswagens.

[Jon_Veggie]

Some good info on the ethical problems surrounding wool here:

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/sheep.php

[kazyeeqen]

Nowthen, if YOU had a sheep as a pet, they need shorn every so often, or the weight of the wool can damage their body. Does that mean you can TAKE the hair and turn it into a product? No.

You'd be just as guilty as the Nazis who took the shaven hair of concentration camp victims and put them into the seats of Volkswagens.

What if I gently sheared them and then made a sweater out of the wool for them to wear at night? Would I be a Nazi then?

If I made a product out of my own hair? Or my husbands? Is that Nazi behavior?

Just curious.

ETA: I definitely think there is something wrong with wool because it is an industry that views animals as commodities and that is always a problem when the goal is no exploitation.

[AlainWinthrope]

The shearing process isn't a very friendly one. In a system that views animals as commodities you can imagine how little care is placed in the shearing process. Yes, skin can be cut off in the process, and the sheep can suffer from overexposure after losing their fur, but the process itself (can be) rough. They even hold "competitions" in Australia on how many sheep a shearer can shear in a given time. A "good" shearer can whip a sheep around like a rag doll to cut off his fur.

[AlainWinthrope]

Sheep have fat rolls that farmers often cut off. Yes, they slice off a part of the sheep, so they don't get certain kinds of flies and ticks under the fat rolls.

And the reason they have to do this in the first place is because the sheep are selectively bred to have unnatural amounts of folds and skin. Why? More skin equals more wool; it's simply an economical choice.

[PlaybackGuru]

Sheep have fat rolls that farmers often cut off. Yes, they slice off a part of the sheep, so they don't get certain kinds of flies and ticks under the fat rolls.

It's absolutely cruel. Imagine having your love handles cut off.

Nowthen, if YOU had a sheep as a pet, they need shorn every so often, or the weight of the wool can damage their body. Does that mean you can TAKE the hair and turn it into a product? No.

You'd be just as guilty as the Nazis who took the shaven hair of concentration camp victims and put them into the seats of Volkswagens.

If I hear you liken one more thing to Nazis I am going to puke. That is a very touchy word in my family and for you to throw it around willie nillie to try to make a point sickens me

[raefactor]

while I agree with the rest of his points, I agree. And um, so does Godwin's law, which means when a veg*n uses Hitler/the Nazis to try to make a point the omni's "win". =/

[*AHIMSA*]

I ABHOR the use of the term "Nazi" in relation to anything but, well, NAZIS, who I abhor in general.

[PlaybackGuru]

I ABHOR the use of the term "Nazi" in relation to anything but, well, NAZIS, who I abhor in general.

Thank you, I am in a foul mood tonight( as you may have noticed from other posts) so I think I'll watch Lost and call it a night.

[*AHIMSA*]

Just to clarify, I am sick of seeing that term used here as it often is, sometimes in regards to vegans and others too. "Vegan police" makes me :mad: too.


Thank you, I am in a foul mood tonight( as you may have noticed from other posts) so I think I'll watch Lost and call it a night.

:hug: Sorry you're having that kind of day. :(

I hope it gets better. :trick:

[Bof]

Watch the Video (http://www.animalsaustralia.org/media/videos.php?vid=ultrafinewool) “The Ultra-Fine Wool Industry”

[Matthew]

If I hear you liken one more thing to Nazis I am going to puke. That is a very touchy word in my family and for you to throw it around willie nillie to try to make a point sickens me

I'll use it whenever I please. My family fought and killed the Nazis, so you should be thanking them, instead of criticizing me for invoking their name in comparison.

My best friend's soon to be Grandfather-In-Law is a concentration camp survivor. He gets checks from Volkswagen because they used his and/or people like his hair to fill car seats.

At least the majority of Nazis didn't know about concentration camps. The few in the general public who knew anything thought the jews/roma/russian/artists/homosexuals/elderly who were sent to the "Concert camps" were being re-conditioned and kept away from the main portion of society.

And as evil as they were, the Nazis were nothing in comparison to their Croation allies, who's inventive psychopathic methods of torture and murder made their goose-stepping brothers look civilized.

Eugenics is a serious problem, even today.

And this "Godwin's Law" thing is utter B.S.

In fact, you should encourage such comparisons. It's important to understand that the dehumanizing tactics of those regimes, and the treatment of those people, is very similar to what goes on in the dairy industry.

1. (Humans or Cows) taken out of their natural environment by a violent force and confined in unsanitary, disease ridden prisons.
2. (Humans or Cows) exploited (By Nazis or Farmers') for production of material (Goods for use in warfare, or milk/meat/leather, etc.)
3. (Humans or Cows) executed once they no longer produce to the (Nazis or Farmers') preferred efficiency.

The same comparisons can be drawn for the wool industry, or any other forced exploitation of a group.

I'm sorry if you can't see the similarities because you still believe that humans are more important on some metaphysical level than other animals. Most people don't even consider humans to even be animals. That's not my problem if they can't go beyond these limitations of understanding.

[raefactor]

um, a lot of my family fought and killed Nazis too. That doesn't give me the right to compare omnivores, wool-wearers, or LO vegetarians to nazis.... D:

[AutomaticMan]

I don't see anything wrong with using Nazi comparisons in debate, but, boy, does it get tedious when it comes up again and again!

Although, I do see Matthew's point with his analogy.

[isowish]

while I agree with the rest of his points, I agree. And um, so does Godwin's law, which means when a veg*n uses Hitler/the Nazis to try to make a point the omni's "win". =/

that's not really how Godwin's law works. It's not meant to be a 'law' as in a rule for discussion, rather a 'law' like a principle - a scientific law. "The longer a discussion on a forum gets, the more likely someone is to compare a poster to Hitler and/or a Nazi" (or something to that effect).

Janie put together a great post about wool a while back (http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=66654)

[Blobbenstein]

comparing someone or something to Hitler or the Nazis is lazy debating, which is why I often feel like doing it :p, but I usually stop myself.

[Diana]

Matthew: Your straight talk without the frills is refreshing. Keep it up, man!!!

Did you read "Eternal Treblinka" by Charles Patterson?

[raefactor]

that's not really how Godwin's law works. It's not meant to be a 'law' as in a rule for discussion, rather a 'law' like a principle - a scientific law. "The longer a discussion on a forum gets, the more likely someone is to compare a poster to Hitler and/or a Nazi" (or something to that effect).

Janie put together a great post about wool a while back (http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=66654)

I've never heard that. It might have evolved recently, because now it seems to mean that the second someone invokes a Nazi comparison they automatically lose. I guess that scientific laws, just like definitions like vegetarian can change over time. :D

[Matthew]

um, a lot of my family fought and killed Nazis too. That doesn't give me the right to compare omnivores, wool-wearers, or LO vegetarians to nazis.... D:

The last time I checked, where I'm at is still the United States of America. (For the next few years, at least.)

I have the right to compare anything I please.


Matthew: Your straight talk without the frills is refreshing. Keep it up, man!!!

Did you read "Eternal Treblinka" by Charles Patterson?

No, but it looks fascinating. I think it's important to draw comparisons between the meat industry and concentration camps because it highlights the fact that the people committing these crimes on some level didn't believe they were doing wrong. What do these yuppies think "de-humanizing" means, anyway? "Oh they were evil, and they treated those people badly." Uh... In their eyes it was like how many people today feel about animals. It's hard to comprehend this, because we as vegans have a love for all beings, and since we're humans we have a special instinctive connection with other humans, but it's the truth (about the Nazis.) If they believed they were doing these terrible things to humans, they wouldn't have done much of it.

And don't confuse my "America" talk, thinking that I'm ignorant to history. Americans and British created eugenics. Hitler got all his ideas from our people, and even said so himself. American eugenics programs ran all the way into the 1960s, sterilizing people for medical imperfections, much like the Nazis did... But shhhh, nobody needs to know about that! Nazi eugenics: BAD. American eugenics: FORBIDDEN SUBJECT.

Back to WOOL...

Lets pretend for a moment that wool comes from a plant. Who wants to wear it? It's itchy, smells, and you need to take it to the dry cleaners. For practical reasons, wool is a really stupid thing to own. There are other materials that offer the same warmth in cold weather for less money, and they don't itch or smell.