Study says Biofuels Cause More Total Greenhouse Gas Emissions

[Savannah]

It appears that when you take into account all the various processes that go into producing biofuels that they might cause more greenhouse gas emissions than conventional fuels, according to the studies cited in this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/science/earth/08wbiofuels.html?em&ex=1202706000&en=d42cfa6f14c01268&ei=5087%0A

"...Almost all biofuels used today cause more greenhouse gas emissions than conventional fuels if the full emissions costs of producing these “green” fuels are taken into account, two studies being published Thursday have concluded.

These studies for the first time take a detailed, comprehensive look at the emissions effects of the huge amount of natural land that is being converted to cropland globally to support biofuels development.

The destruction of natural ecosystems — whether rain forest in the tropics or grasslands in South America — not only releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere when they are burned and plowed, but also deprives the planet of natural sponges to absorb carbon emissions. Cropland also absorbs far less carbon than the rain forests or even scrubland that it replaces..."

[rainforests1]

Not too surprising. I know corn is very bad for the land it uses. Electric cars should be the vehicle of the future and that certainly doesn't have the negative effects that biofuels are associated with.

[Scythe]

Or hydrogen.

[rainforests1]

Or hydrogen.

I haven't done much research about that. Is it expensive?

[nogardsram]

I don't like the idea of growing corn and other crops specifically for fuel, but something doesn't sound right here.

[MissGarbo]

This corn and soy stuff is not where it's at. Solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen. Those are better options for our energy needs.

[Scythe]

I haven't done much research about that. Is it expensive?

Well right now I'm sure it would be.

[Sketchy]

Electric cars should be the vehicle of the future and that certainly doesn't have the negative effects that biofuels are associated with.

Where does electric power come from? Coal, Oil, LNG,

The best solution here is to greatly reduce our use of automobiles all together. The whole basis of our autocentric culture is unsustainable and no matter what fuel source we choose it still won't solve our problems.

Alternative fuels are a (small) bone thrown the way of the human race by Big Oil and Government to maintain the status quo. Like Hybrid cars they are trying to address the symptoms and not the cause. If we drove less, if we used less plastic, if we stopped eating meat, if, if, if...

[nogardsram]

The best solution here is to greatly reduce our use of automobiles all together. The whole basis of our autocentric culture is unsustainable and no matter what fuel source we choose it still won't solve our problems.

I was thinking about posting a thought along similar lines. :up:

[Blobbenstein]

I think people should reeealy cut down on their heating.


my heating(gas) bill for the last 1.5years, is about £5($10). :D


but I think, asking people to significantly cut down on their cars use, is like railing(sp?) at wind turbines.

[bigdufstuff]

Cutting down on car use wouldn't be so hard, except most of the newer cities (therefore many of the US cities), were designed primarily for car use. They are filled with very large, wide, high speed arterials and interstates, that make other forms of transportation such as walking and biking difficult. On top of that US cities attempt to solve their traffic problems by building more roads instead of a public transit infrastructure or a bicycle infrastructure. As long as people continue to deny that they can live without an over abundance of cars and roads the problem will be hard to fix.

I personally became fed up with cars and ditched mine and I encourage others to do the same. Partly for environmental reasons, but more to boycott the car culture that we live in. It makes myself, and the people around me more aware of how to live in and design cites for *people* and not for cars.

[MissGarbo]

Where does electric power come from? Coal, Oil, LNG,
.. wind, flowing water, the sun..

[SupersonicSheep]

I personally became fed up with cars and ditched mine and I encourage others to do the same. Partly for environmental reasons, but more to boycott the car culture that we live in. It makes myself, and the people around me more aware of how to live in and design cites for *people* and not for cars.

bigdufstuff, how do you manage when you have the weekly food shop to do and when you buy large items? How do you transport them home? I'm only asking because ditching the car is something I have considered myself but I don't know if it's doable yet. I only use the car about once a week at present but when I do use it it's because I really need to.

[froggythefrog]

I just want to know how they can write the article where this sounds like a new realization? Haven't we known this for some time?

(By the way, what are we growing the corn with? Petroleum-based fertilizer? Why don't we just use that oil for gas instead?)

[Savannah]

I just want to know how they can write the article where this sounds like a new realization? Haven't we known this for some time?

(By the way, what are we growing the corn with? Petroleum-based fertilizer? Why don't we just use that oil for gas instead?)


while a lot of us might know this stuff, i think that many many out there don't. in addition, maybe a lot of studies quantifying what we 'know' haven't been done?

[froggythefrog]

while a lot of us might know this stuff, i think that many many out there don't. in addition, maybe a lot of studies quantifying what we 'know' haven't been done?

Exasperation on my part. I guess I am just surprised that this article is presenting information as "new" that I've been able to casually piece together in my head from books and talking to people. I can't quantify it, but I know that in addition to growing corn in the US, we're also importing it and that much of the imported grain comes from cleared rainforest lands. I also know that the choice fertilizer for non-organic corn is petroleum-based. I also know that the Amazon Rain Forest is largely responsible for consuming the Earth's carbon and nitrogen and emitting oxygen. Knowing all these things, I concluded biofuel was a bad idea unless we were somehow effectively recycling the vegetable oil used by fast food restaurants: This would mean that the amount of energy to process the vegetable oil would need to be far less than the amount of energy yielded by the oil. Also, there would need to be enough vegetable oil to actually fuel vehicles. Because there are much fewer hydrogen bonds in vegetable oil than in petroleum or diesel, it will take a lot more biofuel than petroleum to power the same vehicle. Which, I believe, is the reason we'd be talking about growing corn to make biodiesel. (Please feel free to correct any wrong information I may have.)

[bigdufstuff]

bigdufstuff, how do you manage when you have the weekly food shop to do and when you buy large items? How do you transport them home? I'm only asking because ditching the car is something I have considered myself but I don't know if it's doable yet. I only use the car about once a week at present but when I do use it it's because I really need to.

For weekly grocery shopping I either walk or go by bike. I live about two miles from the coop I shop at, so this isn't difficult. If I walk then both my partner and I carry a frame pack which is enough room for us. By bike we also use the frame pack, but many bikers prefer a rack and panniers. Something like these (http://www.nashbar.com/results.cfm?category=600066&subcategory=60001004&storetype=&estoreid=&init=y&pagename=Category%3A%20Bags). Panniers will give you more control over your bike than a backpack will. If food runs out too quickly, then we go twice a week, or however often we need to go.

As far as large items, if it isn't too large then I'll probably walk with it, or bring it on the bus. It really depends on the size. If I can have it delivered to me, then I'll do that instead. What size did you have in mind? Some people also use a bike trailer. Personally, I don't have one, but it seems like it would be a fun project.

[Savannah]

Exasperation on my part. I guess I am just surprised that this article is presenting information as "new" that I've been able to casually piece together in my head from books and talking to people. I can't quantify it, but I know that in addition to growing corn in the US, we're also importing it and that much of the imported grain comes from cleared rainforest lands. I also know that the choice fertilizer for non-organic corn is petroleum-based. I also know that the Amazon Rain Forest is largely responsible for consuming the Earth's carbon and nitrogen and emitting oxygen. Knowing all these things, I concluded biofuel was a bad idea unless we were somehow effectively recycling the vegetable oil used by fast food restaurants: This would mean that the amount of energy to process the vegetable oil would need to be far less than the amount of energy yielded by the oil. Also, there would need to be enough vegetable oil to actually fuel vehicles. Because there are much fewer hydrogen bonds in vegetable oil than in petroleum or diesel, it will take a lot more biofuel than petroleum to power the same vehicle. Which, I believe, is the reason we'd be talking about growing corn to make biodiesel. (Please feel free to correct any wrong information I may have.)


like you i have been able to put pieces of this kind of info together too. but it seems that many cannot, even journalists and politicians. so ethanol is being made from corn which is grown with petro fertilizers and the powers that be can go on pretending that something good is being done lol. also, look at the debate about 'liquid coal', where it is clear that making the stuff would create a lot more greenhouse gas than using oil but Congress has been lobbied like crazy to help fund its development.

[Sketchy]

.. wind, flowing water, the sun..

Not Really (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_resources_and_consumption)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/World_energy_usage_width_chart.svg/250px-World_energy_usage_width_chart.svg.png

Maybe someday...

[SupersonicSheep]

For weekly grocery shopping I either walk or go by bike. I live about two miles from the coop I shop at, so this isn't difficult. If I walk then both my partner and I carry a frame pack which is enough room for us. By bike we also use the frame pack, but many bikers prefer a rack and panniers. Something like these (http://www.nashbar.com/results.cfm?category=600066&subcategory=60001004&storetype=&estoreid=&init=y&pagename=Category%3A%20Bags). Panniers will give you more control over your bike than a backpack will. If food runs out too quickly, then we go twice a week, or however often we need to go.

As far as large items, if it isn't too large then I'll probably walk with it, or bring it on the bus. It really depends on the size. If I can have it delivered to me, then I'll do that instead. What size did you have in mind? Some people also use a bike trailer. Personally, I don't have one, but it seems like it would be a fun project.

Thanks. I could easily walk to the supermarket. I have a choice of three within walking distance so no excuses there. I have been thinking about getting a bike anyway. It's just the thought of carrying the food shopping home that worries me cause I'm not the strongest person. Then again if I knew I had to carry the food home maybe I wouldn't make so many spur of the moment purchases and would only buy what I genuinely do need. Like you said I could always carry it home on the bus anyway. I'll definitely consider it.

What bugs me is that me not using my car for the one return journey a week I make to the supermarket won't make much difference. You get people who use their cars twice a day every day to drive to work and they don't give a damn!

Sorry for going off topic guys!

[bigdufstuff]

What bugs me is that me not using my car for the one return journey a week I make to the supermarket won't make much difference. You get people who use their cars twice a day every day to drive to work and they don't give a damn!

You are right. I don't fool myself into thinking that I am saving the planet by not owning a car. I realize in the scheme of things it doesn't make a huge difference. But to me it is the principle of the matter. I try to life my life in a way that makes me glad to be a human being. Part of this being vegan, part of this is trying to reduce my personal comsumption and waste, and part of this is trying to use a city for people rather than cars.

People can, and often do, same the same thing about veg*ism. Does any one veg*n make a measurable difference towards the amount of animal cruelty? Of course not, but that isn't why each of us do it.

[SupersonicSheep]

Does any one veg*n make a measurable difference towards the amount of animal cruelty? Of course not, but that isn't why each of us do it.

Very true! I judge myself by what I do, not by what other people do. Our own actions are the one thing we know we can definitely change. It's not so easy to persuade other people to change thiers.