What should I say in reply to this lady?

[screechingninja]

I am in a discussion on a different msg board about veganism/vegetarianism. I have been going here since I was 15, so my relationship with these ppl is a bit different than if it was just some board out there, so also keep that in mind. I'm not totally all up on the facts, I know generally what to write back, but any help is appreciated. Most of them, minus me and one other person ate meat and dairy, and were "proud" of it. Someone even commented "Nope, I'm human." It's not because they're rude, they just lack knowlege, or for some, refuse to acknowlege. I told them all about why I stopped eating meat and about the animals, and posted a link to meat.org. Then some interesting facts about the intelligence of farm animals and even brought up the fact that there is strong biblical evidence that we will be vegan in heaven (they're christian). I also explained that God obviously did not create us as carnivores, that is why our teeth are flat. They pretty much ignored everything I said, except asked me to give them the biblical evidence, and one lady told me that she's owned chickens and geese and they are not as smart as the "so called Dr." says. But this lady, is the one I need some help with... THANKS! :)

"I am not vegan nor am I vegetarian. I eat whole food and rarely eat anything processed. I did even try unpasteurized milk, meaning raw milk, for a while but it went bad way to fast and it is really expensive.

The meat/dairy I eat is not treat with any drugs. I try to buy any of my veggies/eggs/dairy locally too.

I believe that after the flood of Noah is when God gave told us to eat meat do to the lack of nutrition that we couldn't only get in plants alone. I am very hip on eating right and feeding my body right. I believe in a balanced diet and there is a need for meat in the diet.

I do believe that food in general because of the industrialized world is lacking so much now a days. If you think about it, they have these fields that grow your veggies and in the bible is says to rest the ground for a year after using it for I think like 7 years, well that is not really being done anymore. All the pesticides/drugs/over usage to produce more products has really effected food.

Don't get me started on soy and soy products.

Anyway anything that I have said above is just my opinion."

[Scorpius]

I can't think of anything to say in reply ((personally, I wouldn't even reply lowering the risk opening up a can of worms)), but drinking unpasteurized milk is 'effing stupid.

[screechingninja]

I mostly just don't know how ot answer this... "God gave told us to eat meat do to the lack of nutrition that we couldn't only get in plants alone" I know that we do not need meat, but I dont know how to explain it. If I don't reply it will look like I don't have any answers back... but yah, I don't want to open a can of worms either. :S

[Bates]

The nutrients that meat provides are protein, some B vitamins, chromium, iron, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, selenium, and zinc. These nutrients are very easy to get from vegetarian sources. They are also easy to get without using soy as a source. Even better, when these nutrients are obtained from vegetarian sources, they are obtained without the consumption of saturated fat.

You might want to emphasize that you being a vegetarian has nothing to do with her and that you are not trying to convert her. Maybe you could let her know that you just want her to understand that you are informed and perfectly healthy.

You could also point out that National Geographic wrote a nice, long story on the groups of people that live the longest. National Geographic is of course completely non-biased and their results showed that vegetarians live longer, and healthier lives statistically.

[iii]

it sounds to me that she is one of the, because the bible tells me so-er-ers. These people are extremely difficult to speak to about, everything. Ive gotten in enough of these debates with people, and know im not alone when i say, sometimes these arguments are very worthless. On the other hand, to counter her "bible" stuff, you might want to point her in the direction of some of these websites :


Christian Vegetarian Association (http://www.all-creatures.org/cva/)

Jesus Veg.com (http://www.jesusveg.com/index2.html)

Compassionate "Spirit (http://www.compassionatespirit.com/christian-vegetarian-dialog.htm)

Again this argument is a bit difficult, being christians/catholics/whatever religion, will translate/interpret their bibles to justify their lifestyles.

The fact that shes "very hip" on eating right, is also VERY difficult to argue with. Generally hip people, are above someone, such as, yourself, or myself. Just reading over what she wrote, would make me not want to discuss veganism with her. Shes clearly not open whatsoever for dialogue, not to mention she drinks raw milk. SHE DRINKS RAW MILK.

Everything she says is just pure excuse, after excuse, most rooting back to her religious beliefs. If she knows anything about nutrition, she would first KNOW, that its proven very publicly, and well researched, that a vegan diet is not unhealthy, and much more superior "health wise" than a diet consisting of meat and dairy, and for christs sake raw milk. How ever she wants to write it up, it doesnt matter! Its simply an excuse to eat it, because she thinks it tastes good, period. If i handed her a hamburger, and in the other hand, a tofu burger, and both had the EXACT nutrient benefits, what would she pick? Is all this humbug really over being healthy, or is this just another person thats laid in bed, and thought long and hard about why she logically can eat meat and dairy.

oh and i love this quote of hers :

"I believe in a balanced diet and there is a need for meat in the diet. "

she believes! bless her heart! this isnt on facts, or science, proving that animals are simply middle men for all nutrients, and its not ****ing necessary. its just another one of her beliefs. I actually googled good reasons to smoke cigarettes, when i was trying to quit, and i found tons of websites, promoting the positives of smoking. its easy to rationalize, if you really want to. Oh yeah, and she DRINKS RAW MILK.

[screechingninja]

Thanks so much!!! Great information!

Well, it's from a christian message board, so that's why she brought her beliefs into it.

III you're funny lol.

[Indian Summer]

I believe that after the flood of Noah is when God gave told us to eat meat do to the lack of nutrition that we couldn't only get in plants alone.
After the Flood, which covered the entire planet, one would assume that crops, granaries and the entire civilization had been destroyed, so therefore there would be very little to eat in terms of plants. So God said it was okay for Noah and his followers to eat animals. He didn't say they had to eat animals, or that if they did eat animals at that point, then humankind was obliged to continue eating animals forever and ever.

In this informed day and age with its abundance of vegan food options, it is obviously no longer necessary to eat the flesh of other creatures in order to survive.

Also, Methusalem / Methuselah is the longest-living person in the Bible, and he was a vegan (because he died the year of the Flood). Many other long-living people in the Bible were also vegans.

That said, the Bible is a book of fairytales and I don't believe one word of it.

[screechingninja]

That is sooo true, what a good point. Thanks! Yah, I don't think it's fairy tales, like all made up by someone who wrote a book, there is too much evidence to show that these people actually lived. Not sure if I believe the religious aspect of it or not really, or if Jesus was God but I do believe these people all existed in history.

[LovelyPerv]

As an Atheist I get weirded out by that kind of talk anyways...

God likes to test people...right? Always with the testing of your faith...

Perhaps He (or She, It, whatever) purposefully made mankind ABLE to live off a plant-based diet...infact healthier to live this way...to see how long it would take us to adopt that lifestyle. Or see if we'd keep torturing and killing...because it's yummy.

Think about it...it's the ultimate temptation...
We're surrounded by it, and it arrives on our plate from great wrong-doings which we conveniently CHOOSE to ignore.

I admit, that in human history, there have been many situations where people would have starved...but were saved because we have the brainpower to figure out how to catch and cook an animal

(I mention cook because...well...our teeth cannot chew the raw flesh of dead things very well at all. If you've never tried it, inagine trying to chew up a mouthfull of rubberbands. Raw steaks in restaurants have been treated and tenderized...plus, wild animals have a tougher flesh. We bred them to be softer to eat).

But, I'm sure if there is a God, he's shaking his head...wondering why we won't stop.

[screechingninja]

But, I'm sure if there is a God, he's shaking his head...wondering why we won't stop.
I definitely agree.

[Blobbenstein]

loads of rotting corpses lying around and then God said that people should eat meat?
That's some wise thinking.

I mean, if God could make all that water appear, and then disappear; why didn't he just appear some McDonalds?

[kingsnorkie]

I mean, if God could make all that water appear, and then disappear; why didn't he just appear some McDonalds?

I think Satan is who invented McDonalds... :p

[Matthew]

LOL this chick says God told us to eat meat????

Surely she must be referring to Raptor Jesus.

[Just_Kris]

I don't recall anything about meat in the 10 commandments. There may have been a time when God permitted eating meat ( I don't know since I was there ;) ) but I don't think He ever commanded us to eat meat. In any case, I'm quite certain that He never would have intended us to engage in the horrors of factory farming. Our world is perfectly capable of providing for itself without the use or abuse of animals.

[shineonyou]

I find it hard to imagine that we're going to give you some magical response to this woman's post, and that that response will change any of her opinions, let alone convert her to vegetarianism.

I did appreciate the 'don't get me started on soy' comment though! Especially since Sanjay Gupta on the TV told me that the average American gets 10% of their calories from soy bean oil. Just the oil!!!

[Dirty Martini]

I also explained that God obviously did not create us as carnivores, that is why our teeth are flat.

We're omnivores. That's why we have an omnivorous digestive system. We can choose to eat meat, or we can choose not to. Our digestive system allows us to do either and subsist on either choice.

As for addressing this woman, I don't think she was trying to argue with you or prove you unhealthy or whatnot. I think she probably felt like you were dismissing her choices and she explained to you how much effort she's made to make the choice she feels is right for her. Just like you explained to her your choice, she explained hers to you.

[Nywyn]

Romans 14

Vegetarians and meat eaters shouldn't argue with eachother because we are both accepted at God's table.

This is very true. Romans 14 is an excellent chapter to read through when you get into dietary debates. Just remember that all food is clean, all food is permissable. Only you can know what is clean and unclean for you, and this may differ from someone else. As long as we do everything to honor God, we are clean, whether vegetarian or omni.

She is right on one point, the consumption of meat only occured after the Flood; however, the reasons for it vary. I've read theories that sticking to a strictly vegetarian diet was too difficult for the people and so God allowed them to eat meat. I don't know why. It's interesting, though, if you read Genesis 9:1-3, it states that all animals will be given to us for food; however, as a result all animals would now fear us. He allowed us this food source, but it did come at a price.

We were originally intended to be vegans and it's stated that we will return to this life during Christ's Millenial Reign as per Isaiah 11:7 "The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox."

It sounds like she's trying her best to eat a clean, healthy diet, abstaining from factory farming techniques as much as possible. I think in this instance, you might just need to call a truce. Her diet is clean for her and your diet is clean for you, both of which honor God.

[eggplant]

I wouldn't really get into an argument with her about it. I would just say that, since I live in an environment where it is relatively easy to live a healthy life without hurting animals, that that is what I choose to do. I find that people are more open to listening to my viewpoints if I simply tell them what I do (or don't do) and why, rather than telling them what I think they should do (or not do). If they start to argue with me I can say that I'm not telling them what to do, just sharing what I do.

[Doktormartini]

http://www.all-creatures.org/cva/
That's the Christian Vegetarian Association.

Also mention the Seventh Day Adventists. They are a sect of Christians who advocate Vegetariansm for HEALTH reasons (Which would go against her reasoning about nutrition after the flood (which is a stupid story but that's not the point)).

http://www.compassionatespirit.com/bible-verses.htm
Bunch of Bible versus relating to vegetarianism. Also, mention that Jesus' message was one of compassion and he preached compassion to ALL of God's creatures.


Oh sorry a lot of these have been mentioned, but I will post anyways.

Romans 14

Vegetarians and meat eaters shouldn't argue with eachother because we are both accepted at God's table.
I hate that verse...
"For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. (Romans 14:2)

We aren't weak :)

[bramble]

http://www.all-creatures.org/cva/
That's the Christian Vegetarian Association.

Also mention the Seventh Day Adventists. They are a sect of Christians who advocate Vegetariansm for HEALTH reasons (Which would go against her reasoning about nutrition after the flood (which is a stupid story but that's not the point)).

http://www.compassionatespirit.com/bible-verses.htm
Bunch of Bible versus relating to vegetarianism. Also, mention that Jesus' message was one of compassion and he preached compassion to ALL of God's creatures.


Oh sorry a lot of these have been mentioned, but I will post anyways.

I hate that verse...
"For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. (Romans 14:2)

We aren't weak :)

i read an explanation of the 'weak' thing... apparently paul was talking about weak in faith. those who were weak in faith were afraid to eat meat, lest it had been offered as a sacrifice to a pagan deity. therefore only ate vegetables. the point being, if you are weak in faith, you are afraid of pagan sacrifices. if you are strong in faith, you know it doesn't matter since the pagan deities don't even exist.

i don't know how correct this is, but it made sense to me. remember daniel, of the lion's den fame? he asked for only vegetables and bread to eat and after 10 days looked healthier than the soldiers who ate from the king's table.

[Doktormartini]

i read an explanation of the 'weak' thing... apparently paul was talking about weak in faith. those who were weak in faith were afraid to eat meat, lest it had been offered as a sacrifice to a pagan deity. therefore only ate vegetables. the point being, if you are weak in faith, you are afraid of pagan sacrifices. if you are strong in faith, you know it doesn't matter since the pagan deities don't even exist.

i don't know how correct this is, but it made sense to me. remember daniel, of the lion's den fame? he asked for only vegetables and bread to eat and after 10 days looked healthier than the soldiers who ate from the king's table.
It could be but the Bible doesn't make it clear, as with many things. George Bernard Shaw said it best, "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means."

[bramble]

It could be but the Bible doesn't make it clear, as with many things. George Bernard Shaw said it best, "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means."

that is a problem with any "sola scriptura" religion (that the bible is the only source of authority and moral guidance). so really... if you're going to discuss religious bases for veg*anism, you kind of need to be of the same faith as the other person. in a roomful of other catholics, i have no trouble presenting a good discussion on this subject, but i have learned to avoid it otherwise - because what you get is exactly what the OP got: "well *I* believe that..." so... kind of pointless... :yes:

[Brown_Windsor]

After the Flood, which covered the entire planet, one would assume that crops, granaries and the entire civilization had been destroyed, so therefore there would be very little to eat in terms of plants. So God said it was okay for Noah and his followers to eat animals. He didn't say they had to eat animals, or that if they did eat animals at that point, then humankind was obliged to continue eating animals forever and ever.

This made me think of something specific, but probably off topic...anyways...

The idea brought up above about needing to, having to, or continuing to eat meat even after circumstances change is similar to what the Japanese now use as an excuse to eat whale - It has always happened/is tradition. The Japanese only started eating whale in the 1940's due to war induced famine, yet they say they should continue because it is an old tradition. Similar ideas maybe...off topic - definitly.


I wouldn't really get into an argument with her about it. I would just say that, since I live in an environment where it is relatively easy to live a healthy life without hurting animals, that that is what I choose to do

I really like this as it puts the onus back on her and draws compassion, sensibility and sensitivity into the equation, which is something anyone should be able to understand (unless they think their god prefers suffering and death to be perpetrated by humans purely for their epicurean desires)

[Dirty Martini]

[quote=Brown_Windsor;1812474]The idea brought up above about needing to, having to, or continuing to eat meat even after circumstances change is similar to what the Japanese now use as an excuse to eat whale - It has always happened/is tradition. The Japanese only started eating whale in the 1940's due to war induced famine, yet they say they should continue because it is an old tradition. Similar ideas maybe...off topic - definitly./quote]

Really? Because according to this http://luna.pos.to/whale/jwa_trad.html, they started eating whale about 10,000 years ago. :think:

[Blobbenstein]

I thought that whale meat was consumed on the coast, traditionally, but not in-land.

so in-land, it wasn't really traditional.