Hardwood Floors, The ultimate fragile floor?

[dm7]

I am hoping someone here has experience with hardwood floors, and can help me out. I recently purchased a rather expensive hardwood floor from Home Depot. It is a click-together floor made from engineered wood (supposedly eco-friendly) about 1/2" thick. Upon removal from the boxes about 1/3d of the wood planks sprang into a banana warp so that the tongue/grove won't mate. Additionally because of the duel tenons on both sides of the wood, it requires a special tool to join the planks; however neither Home Depot nor the Mfg., (Madras Iglesias dba Greenkett) know where to get the tool.

The sub-floor must be perfectly level, with no more than 2mm/meter deflection off of dead level. (roughly 1/16th inch per yard.

To make matters worse, the specifications for the floor dictate that the room environment must remain between 45% and 65%, the temperature of the sub-floor must not rise above 78F,

Although the company is supposedly in Mobile, AL. the instructions appear to have been written offshore, apparently China, and they are of very little help.

According to the company material the warranty is void if rugs are not put down in high traffic areas, however the material further states that the warranty is void if discoloration due to sunlight occurs where the rug is placed. The warranty is further void if the temperatures and humidity listed above are exceeded or finally, if the area experiences high use.

It appears I may have purchased a nightmare. Home Depot will not take the hardwood back because it was a special order (Yes, I paid more for an "eco friendly floor). Has anyone had any experience installing something like this? Or should I have stuck with tile? I did not want to buy a traditional hardwood floor made of solid wood for environmental reasons ( I can't see cutting down the lungs of the earth so my floor can look pretty.)

Any help locating the special tool needed to install this stuff would be very much appreciated. I have already accepted the fact that unless I lived in a museum I could never meet the terms of the warranty, but anyone have any practical experience using this stuff? Is it really this fragile?

Thanks

Doug

[Fritemare]

My dad put in some snap together hard wood floor about two years ago. Their's looks fine. I don't remember him using a special tool though. He used a table saw to cut it, and then just snapped it together if I remember correctly. They just installed it right over the foam backing that was under the carpet. I was actually thinking about doing the snap together tile in my kitchen after I saw how easy it was to install the hardwood.

[Beachbnny]

I have this flooring though it's not wood. You have to let it acclimate (ap?) before you try and install it other wise it will adjust later and you'll be left with a funky fitting floor.

I love mine, I just have one complaint. If you get water on it, like even a little, it gets under there and can bow. I have two spots on my one year old flooring where some water got under there and pushed up the seams. Really pisses me off. It's considered a "floating" floor so you have to be super careful about liquids around it.

I also have ceramic tile, which I loathe and would never install again. Next time I think I'm going to just out down concrete and astroturf- lol. Just kidding.

BTW- welcome to VeggieBoards! I just realized this was your first post :)

[Wolfie]

If Home Depot made any money on that special order, it's kind of crappy of them not to take it back. I'd tell them I'd be taking all future business to Lowe's. They (at least the one here) take anything back no questions asked.

[LucidAnne]

poo on home depot. wasnt there some issues about their "eco-friendly" woods being harvested from suspicious places/sources? i dunno...

we just had some cork flooring put in,and it is great. we, too had to acclimatize the wood to proper temp..and as far as i know, the installer just used a mallet to help the "click-in" process.

beachbunny...thats good to kknow about the water drips...we were wondering about it ourselves (plants peeing, etc. haha)...im glad you did the experiment for us! lol.

[Beachbnny]

It's really tough but what's the best alternative? I can't figure that one out. Pray one of your animals doesn't pee on your floor cause I can imagine that would never get out. My cat knocked over a vase of water with flowers my husband gave me- I assume she was nibbling on them. The next morning it was already popping up. Grrr. We have carpet, ceramic tiles, and this flooring stuff. Of the three, I'd still choose the "wood" flooring.

[nogardsram]

So what's your interest in veg*nism dm7?

At any rate, I have a some knowledge of flooring.

As was stated, acclimating the flooring is important, whether is solid wood, engineered wood, bamboo (or engineering bamboo), cork, etc. It's so the flooring stabilizes in terms of moisture content, shirks, etc in your specific environment.

If that doesn't help (in terms of the bowed ones) then I'd get replacement from the manufacture or Home Depot (whoever is supposed to deal with defectives) since it is obviously defective if it will not unwarp.

I haven't seen any floating floor or click system where you need a special tool (at the most it's a rubber mallet). If there is supposed to be a special tool and Home Depot or their distributer doesn't have the proper equipment, then it does you no good and I'd raise a lot of issues with Home Depot since they are selling a product that you can't actually use.

Most click system floating floors must be put together initially at an angle (one piece on the floor and one raised at an angle) so that the tongue and grove of the click system goes together and then the piece is laid flat. Sometimes a little persuasion is necessary with the aid of a mallet, but be careful not to damage the tongue and groves. There's some tricks to it like using a scrap piece with either the tongue or grove receptive piece to bang against.

----

Also to those with water issues, many times at initial installation many companies with floating floors or prefinished floors recommend applying another coat of finish (or two) on top to seal the seams and edges. Especially in water prone areas like the kitchen and bathroom. If it's already been installed and is slightly scratched you could have it screened (buffing with a fine grit paper/mesh), vacuumed, and then apply the finish. They usually have a recommended finish, but as long as you get a comparable one (make sure the finishes are compatible).

If you've never done it, it may be best to have a professional do it, or you could test out in an inconspicuous area first (like a board where no one sees, or a left over piece). Just do the buffing and vacuum and apply finish to it and see.

Good luck.

[Beachbnny]

^ No way!! Cool :) I didn't know I could add extra sealant to it. Does it really help? I'll have to check that out. Thanx!

[nogardsram]

Check out the manufacturers website or try calling the company to find out what finish can be applied over it. It's usually kind of specific cause it has to be slightly plyable (to span over the cracks) and compatible with existing finishes. That said you can find comparable ones that would be cheaper. Just ask what kind of finish they recommend (they'll probably give a specific brand/type), but try to probe further and maybe ask for technical support and find out what finishes would be compatible.

Another option that I've seen some recommend is to apply a bead of water-proof (and environmentally friendly of course) glue or caulk along all the tongue/groves when it's being installed. So this doesn't mean over the top, cause it'll probably look really bad, but in the actual mating surfaces below the top surface. That would help minimize water absorption some too, but applying another top coat (or two or three) would make a solid surface and would probably be better.

Although applying the glue/caulk assumes you won't take it up. But then who really does?

[dm7]

Thanks for the input folks. As far as cooperation from Home Depot, sadly that is not an option. So I am going to have to figure out some way to make this work.

Here is the problem with the tool. Most click together floors use a hard rubber block and a rubber mallet to seat the tongue into the groove by tapping on the flat (grooved) side. But this stuff has a double tenon essentially there is a tongue on both sides, so if you place a seating block against it to pound it in, you crush that tenon. It requires a block with a groove in it, or in the alternative a power-tool that is specifically made for seating it. No one knows where to get a block with a groove in it, and no one locally has the machine with the specific head to seat the wood. I am hoping that someone here will know someplace on the net where I can get the block?

The moisture issue is always a concern with the new hardwoods. From what I have been able to find out the problem is mostly with the new space age durable finishes. Years ago you had to wax, strip, re-wax, etc. It was royal pain, but the wood itself could breath. When the manufacturers went to the aluminum oxide finish it sealed the wood, so now when humidity, spilled drinks, etc get into the wood, they are trapped there. This leads to cupping, splintering, separations etc. That is why the warranty specifies that the humidity must remain between 45-65% and the temp of the sub-floor must not get warmer than 78F. It also explains why you must cover areas that take direct sunlight with a rug; that sub-floor will quickly get above 78 degrees even when the rest of the house is cool.

In retrospect I should have gone with the cork or tile. But, here I am with 400 square feet of hardwood. I did go to the company website for Maderas Iglesias. The main office is in Madrid, and the website reflects that English is a second language. So far no response to e-mails. The folks at Home Depot are sympathetic, but have no clue how to make the floor work. Since it is a special order there is a 15% restocking fee if I return it. I really would rather make it work.

Has anyone seen, or heard of a grooved seating block? I think that is perhaps my best option.

Oh, and ref being a vegetarian. Look at the amount of grain, etc. consumed by livestock to produce one pound of beef. Now look at how many people could be fed by the same amount of grain. It is the same reason I don't drink alcohol. If you took all the acreage under cultivation for wine grapes, beer and whiskey components, etc. and put them into wheat and corn you would solve world hunger in a single growing season. Then convert all the acreage used to grow tobacco and....well you get the idea.

Ok, I will get off my soapbox.

Thanks,

Doug

[dm7]

P.S. Beachbnny, there is a product called Redguard, it is water soluble and can be rollered on to your floor (or wall or anyplace else). It goes on pink and dries bright red. When dry it forms a vapor barrier that keeps water in your sub-floor from reaching your wood. If you can operate a paint roller you can apply this stuff. It has the consistency of soupy pudding. Use a short nap roller and lightly roll on your first coat, don't make more than two passes. This will allow you to see any uneven spots on your floor, since the short nap will not reach down and "paint" them. Depending upon your floor specifications you may or may not want to use some sort of filler if you have a large void. After it has dried bright red (usually about an hour) then go over it again with a deep nap (at least 1/4 inch) making sure you get 100% coverage. I am paranoid about such things, so I put on three coats.

Nogard had a good point on prepping your joints if the manufacturer allows, but remember to use the stuff sparingly and as he pointed out on the bottom. Try a hypodermic needle as an applicator and remember this is a case where less is more. If the glue gets loose on the top of your hardwood it may interact with the aluminum oxide and cause discoloration.

Good Luck!

Doug

[nogardsram]

That really sucks that you can't return it. Has the cupping diminished?



Here is the problem with the tool. Most click together floors use a hard rubber block and a rubber mallet to seat the tongue into the groove by tapping on the flat (grooved) side. But this stuff has a double tenon essentially there is a tongue on both sides, so if you place a seating block against it to pound it in, you crush that tenon. It requires a block with a groove in it, or in the alternative a power-tool that is specifically made for seating it. No one knows where to get a block with a groove in it, and no one locally has the machine with the specific head to seat the wood. I am hoping that someone here will know someplace on the net where I can get the block?

As to the block, I've always just used a scrap of the product itself to beat against to save the tongues and groves and respective click sides. There will always be scrap (from cutting up against walls on all sides, save the initial side). So for instance when starting out against a wall I might cut off 6 inches, then cut it so one side is flat for beating and the other has the appropriate piece to butt up against the flooring. If it's ribbed, I've just trimmed it down a bit so it won't stick. I'd use that to beat one board into the other.

I tried looking to see what kind you specifically have, but it's hard without knowing what you specifically have. The Greenkett looks like it comes in either the 'Uniclic' or the 'lock system.' Is that right? Are you saying then that you have the 'lock system'? Like this ? Or do you have something else?

[nogardsram]

P.S. Beachbnny, there is a product called Redguard, it is water soluble and can be rollered on to your floor (or wall or anyplace else). It goes on pink and dries bright red. When dry it forms a vapor barrier that keeps water in your sub-floor from reaching your wood. If you can operate a paint roller you can apply this stuff. It has the consistency of soupy pudding. Use a short nap roller and lightly roll on your first coat, don't make more than two passes. This will allow you to see any uneven spots on your floor, since the short nap will not reach down and "paint" them. Depending upon your floor specifications you may or may not want to use some sort of filler if you have a large void. After it has dried bright red (usually about an hour) then go over it again with a deep nap (at least 1/4 inch) making sure you get 100% coverage. I am paranoid about such things, so I put on three coats.

Nogard had a good point on prepping your joints if the manufacturer allows, but remember to use the stuff sparingly and as he pointed out on the bottom. Try a hypodermic needle as an applicator and remember this is a case where less is more. If the glue gets loose on the top of your hardwood it may interact with the aluminum oxide and cause discoloration.


dm7, I think Beachbnny was talking about water on top of the wood seeping down under it (or under the laminate and core of the engineered floating floor) and ruining it. Redguard would need to be put on the subfloor, not the actual floor you'll be walking on, so that would just protect from water/moisture coming up from the subfloor (that's just to clarify for anyone reading it, not to correct dm7).

And as Doug/dm7 stated use the glue if allowed, sparingly. He's right, you don't want it squeezing out. :no: