My soft approach is very frustrating!

[Treehugger267]

It's been almost 3 months now since I made the move to become a vegetarian. It really feels so right and I'm proud of myself. I haven't forced my choice on anyone in my family. I have been trying to educate with a soft approach. My kids are still asking questions, which is good! But there have been a couple things lately that have really bothered me.

#1. The sleepover: The boys stayed at my mom's a couple weeks ago. She usually feeds them junk from the time they get their until the time they go home. This time she decided to make them a nice homecooked meal and not do the hot dog and french fry thing. Okay, the homecooked meal was pork chops. This still didn't upset me. They still eat meat here too if their dad is grilling on the weekend. But the discussion that went along with it bothered me. Apparently (according to my boys) they had a discussion on how good meat was for you. It was healthy and full of protien. Why would she do that? I haven't said anything but I am angry.

#2. So What?!?: I was really sick last weekend with the stomach flu. I was on the couch and put Chicken Run on for my boys to keep them occupied. The story has a great message...those chickens don't want to be pie! It brought up a ton of questions from the boys. Good! I want them thinking. However, I was too ill to have the discussion with them and told them that we would definately talk about it in the morning. I was still ill and their dad took them to breakfast where the discussion happened without me. They asked how exactly the animals became meat. Their dad was pretty blunt when they asked if they cut their heads off and said yes they do, then the skin them and cut them up and then they are meat. Hearing that sent me back a step but I thought well, at least that information is out now. He followed up with, they still at ham and sausage for breakfast and thought nothing about it. I shook my head and walked away..... This morning, my son asked another question about the animals dying for food and my husband said, "yes, so what." I was done being quiet!!!!!!!!! So what?!? I asked him why he would say such a thing. He said he didn't want them to feel guilty about what they are eating. Well, I hate the feeling too, but I don't want them to be callous to the slaughter of animals just so that they can be a temporary fix to our hunger. I want them to know it's mean.

I'm stuck between being this passive knowledge giver and wanting to smack everyone in the face with a good dose of Meet your Meat! I guess I'm just venting. I'm so frustrated right now.

[zoebird]

i think it's appropriate for you to assert your opinion to them. they're asking, you can answer.

'i choose not to eat meat because it bothers me that animals would be killed for my food, particularly when I can get all that I need from other sources." this isn't putting a judgment on anyone and their choices. it's just saying "it bothers ME, i can get what i need."

this might lead to the question of "can i get all li need to?' and you can say "yes, if you would like." and then, voila, veggie babes.

[Treehugger267]

Thanks Zoebird. Tonight it will be just the boys and I at home. I think I will say it exactly like that.

[Blobbenstein]

I wonder if some education about anatomy would bring the idea of a living breathing creature alive. sometimes i think that people just see creatures as blobs of flesh almost like plastercein(sp?).

[Treehugger267]

Good point Blobbenstein. They are little 5 & 7. So they very well might not get the big picture.

[thebelovedtree]

Maybe at that age a trip to a farm sanctuary might be helpful, you could focus on the animals as individuals. You could talk about how some of the chickens will come and see them and some are shy, just like some people are shy, etc. That might be a little blatent for you, but there is nothing like interacting with animals that have names, stories, etc. to get people to see them as living beings.

[abroadinSacto]

I think your efforts would be better spent on helping them make informed decisions rather than simply telling them what is right and wrong. I know you're doing that, but you're up against other societal pressures.

A risk of being too pushy with your kids is that, as they grow older and start to think for themselves, they are only equipped with the knowledge they have. If it comes down to the opinions of their friends versus yours, you are going to lose. If you walk your walk and pose it as a matter of choice and values it will impress on them far more positively than simply laying down a code.

All that said, you should tell your relatives that it's not their job to teach morality and nutrition to your kids if it contradicts your objectives as a parent. You can and should set the terms for how your mother and others interact with your kids.

[Tofu-N-Sprouts]

Everyone has given you good ideas and replies.

As the lone vegan in a once omni family, I've been through some of this...
A couple thoughts:

- At 5 and 7 they are PLENTY "old enough" to get it... they're old enough to develop compassion and go see animals in a Farm Sanctuary type setting like 'belovedtree' suggested. Nothing 'blatent' about that at all I don't think!... and to be told straight up where their hamburger comes from. I wouldn't go for horror and shock obviously, but I would talk about it in a non-accusatory way. (Not making Dad look bad...).

-I would talk to their Dad privately about your feelings and what he's comfortable with you saying, and what you WANT to say - you don't want to fight about this in front of the kids no matter how much you may disagree with him!!!!
I think you shouldn't have to wait until he's not there to discuss these things, that feels secretive and like you're doing things behind his back. On the other hand, you shouldn't have to be frustrated listening to what he tells them.
HOWEVER - know that you probably will have to both compromise somewhat and "meet in the middle"...that's how relationships work, after all...

-I think, as the Mom, it is very appropriate for you to assert your opinion and especially to say what works for you and how you feel about eating animals. Again, not making Dad's choices seem "bad" but expressing what works for you.

- and lastly, You ARE up against societal pressures.
"you should tell your relatives that it's not their job to teach morality and nutrition to your kids if it contradicts your objectives as a parent " is right on the mark (though easier said than done!). You WILL need to gently but firmly lay down some ground rules for relatives, though find out directly FROM THEM what was said and don't take your kids word for it.
From experience: "If it comes down to the opinions of their friends versus your opinion, you are going to lose"... so true, so true. I someone had told ME that 15 years ago... (though I thank God that my teens' non-veggie peer-pressured lapse was short lived.).

[*Samantha*]

Treehugger: I agree with most of what was said above, particularly what zoebird said. What your mother and husband told your children was completely inappropriate, and you should assert yourself and make it clear to them you want these comments to end. But, of course, don't do it in front of the children! I remember how much I hated it when my parents fought in front of me as a child. I really feel bad for you, Treehugger. :hug: It must be very difficult trying to raise your children according to your values without much support from those around you, and without your husband being veg.

That said, I really disagree with the comments some people made above implying kids won't stick with vegetarianism because they value the opinions of friends over their mom. I disagree with these comments for these reasons:

1. It's not true for every kid in the world that their mom's opinion is worth less to them than their friends' (though it is probably true for most, with most the ones I know it certainly is). And before anyone starts calling me naive for thinking this, I should state that I am only 16 and I value the opinions of my mom and friends equally. Now my dad, well, that's a different story.

2. I think peoples' moral opinions should be based on what their conscience tells them (once they get to the age where they can make moral decisions). Their morals shouldn't be based on whether they value the opinions of person A or B more. I would think all the teens on this forum who are veg without having any veg friends or family members would be proof that some young people do live by their own moral convictions.
and

3. There are people who were raised veggie and did stick with it, even throughout childhood/teen years, without having phases of meat eating. Personal anecdotes of teenagers raised veg*n who went through a meat eating phase are not proof that this happens to every person raised veg*n.

[abroadinSacto]

- and lastly, nigel has several good points! You ARE up against societal pressures.
"you should tell your relatives that it's not their job to teach morality and nutrition to your kids if it contradicts your objectives as a parent " is right on the mark (though easier said than done!). You WILL need to gently but firmly lay down some ground rules for relatives, though find out directly FROM THEM what was said and don't take your kids word for it.
From experience: "If it comes down to the opinions of their friends versus your opinion, you are going to lose"... so true, so true. I someone had told ME that 15 years ago... (though I thank God that my teens' non-veggie peer-pressured lapse was short lived.).

That TNS is dating a mod on this board who knows, officially, that I am nigel, and discloses that information, challenges the integrity of this board.

I solicited a response from Michael on my situation days ago and have not received anything. By his own word, it is forbidden for mods to share this type of information here or on any other board. I call on the the leadership to reprimand both of them.

[Treehugger267]

We live out in the country and right next to a cow barn. I don't know if anyone has read my post about Annie and Cloe. Two beautiful cows that we are terribly attached to from the barn. It is because of them that I was almost afraid for my son to make the connection between cows and beef. He asked me tonight if that's what happened to Cloe when they took her away and would that happen to Annie. OMG! I was crying inside. I somehow muttered that I didn't know for sure what happened to Cloe, she might have just ended up in another barn, but ultimately, yes, that's what happens to cows and that's why I choose not to eat meat. My little guy piped up and said, "I don't ever want to hurt animals, but I really love to eat meat." He's been pretty consistant with that right from the beginnng. But my oldest is more of a softy like me and he does understand and is very compassionate. It's hard for me in social situations, I know how hard it has to be for a little kid. I think I just have to remember why "I" made this choice and try not to be upset that others don't feel like I do. I will continue to lead by example and answer the questions that are asked. Thank you everyone for helping me with this. It's so good to have you guys to talk to.

[Tofu-N-Sprouts]

That TNS is dating a mod on this board who knows, officially, that I am nigel, and discloses that information, challenges the integrity of this board.

Um...Hello? You don't realize your writing style gives you away immediately?

No prior knowledge or leaking of top-secret information (You're not THAT important)...
I was only taking (what I thought was a pretty WILD) guess based on posts I'd read.
Sorry if I was right, (and evidently I was) but don't randomly assume I would "challenge the integrity of the boards".
Feel free to PM me if you disagree next time, I don't mind editing my posts.

[Treehugger267]

Doing a little happy dance this morning. Just when everything seemed hopeless, my little guy (the meat eater extraordinair) came up to me and said, "If people stopped buying meat at the store, would they stop cutting up the cows?" He's 5!! Awesome!

[Treehugger267]

[QUOTE=Tofu-N-Sprouts;1616744]
-I would talk to their Dad privately about your feelings and what he's comfortable with you saying, and what you WANT to say - you don't want to fight about this in front of the kids no matter how much you may disagree with him!!!!
I think you shouldn't have to wait until he's not there to discuss these things, that feels secretive and like you're doing things behind his back. On the other hand, you shouldn't have to be frustrated listening to what he tells them.
HOWEVER - know that you probably will have to both compromise somewhat and "meet in the middle"...that's how relationships work, after all...

-I think, as the Mom, it is very appropriate for you to assert your opinion and especially to say what works for you and how you feel about eating animals. Again, not making Dad's choices seem "bad" but expressing what works for you.
QUOTE]
We've tried to have this talk and funny thing, we agree on all of it including the part where we don't want them to feel guilty for eating dinner. I blocked all of the guilt out of my mind for 40 years. Funny thing, for all of those years I could look at a cow and love them and talk to them, it's now that I don't eat meat anymore that I can't look them in the eye. I think most of the problem is with me. It's my own trouble knowing what happens to the animals. It's changed everything for me, both good and bad. I won't do anything to hurt them anymore, that's good. But just knowing has changed my relationship with them because it hurts to much knowing, not good. I don't want my kids to feel like this and I don't think there is anyway not to and still know enough to have this discussion. Okay, I sound like a nut job even to me. lol So oddly enough, my husband both agree on so much of this, only that he still eats meat occasionally and I don't. He's more about the health aspect, I'm more about the animals.

[abroadinSacto]

Um...Hello? You don't realize your writing style gives you away immediately?

No prior knowledge or leaking of top-secret information (You're not THAT important)...
I was only taking (what I thought was a pretty WILD) guess based on posts I'd read.
Sorry if I was right, (and evidently I was) but don't randomly assume I would "challenge the integrity of the boards".
Feel free to PM me if you disagree next time, I don't mind editing my posts.

OK. goth~UK.

I am that important.

[*Samantha*]

Doing a little happy dance this morning. Just when everything seemed hopeless, my little guy (the meat eater extraordinair) came up to me and said, "If people stopped buying meat at the store, would they stop cutting up the cows?" He's 5!! Awesome!

That's amazing that a 5-year-old understands the economics of supply and demand! You must have very smart children. :) I can't tell you how many of my teen peers, heck, even their parents, have told me, "Why not eat meat? It's not killing any animals. The animals are already dead."

[bethanie]

Hmmmmmmmmmm....this is an interesting conversation. I think you have to decide if you really want to take the 'soft approach'...and if so, why? I have always been committed to not forcing my daughter to be vegetarian, but also not forcing her not to be vegetarian...rather, educating her about food choices. I don't cook meat at home...so at home, she eats a vegetarian diet. When she goes out, she has a choice. It used to be (early on...and actually for the first few years) she would always choose a meat product. But in the past year I've really noticed a change....at first it was just subtle, like when we went for pizza, she would often decide on cheese pizza rather than peperoni. But a few weeks ago she decided no chicken strips at a local deli we visited. She had a pasta salad and fruit instead. Truly I was amazed. Last night as well, we were going to sample some pizza at a bakery, that they had placed on the counter. I mentioned it had chicken on it, so I wouldn't eat it. She said, "I don't want to eat chicken either." Now she did order a tuna melt (yes, I do understand tuna is meat)...but more and more she will simply order something vegetarian from the menu. Sometimes I have to work to hide my outright surprise. I don't make a big deal about her choices (because I don't think becoming vegetarian to make me happy is a good reason), but occasionally will mention that I notice she's making healthier choices for herself than she used to. Now she is probably eating vegetarian meals about 90% of the time.

I think for the children, since your husband doesn't seem willing to be vegetarian right now...the house doesn't need to be a battleground. You can educate your children (and husband) in a way that doesn't cause friction. I was reading an article on msnbc this morning that talked about the cholesterol lowering effects of limiting/cutting out meat and dairy. These are mainstream news sources...not animal rights activists..who are saying these things now. Print off some articles for your Mom and talk with her about what's appropriate (when relating to her grandchildren). Give her nutritional info that talks about eating a balanced vegetarian diet--and talk to her about it....particularly since it seems her main worry is that they are healthy. Talk to your husband about healthy diet....so many people I talk to even in the southeast (US) are limiting their intake of meat product, or mentioning even when they don't know I'm vegetarian, that they eat only fish or chicken and fish...these days--and limit meat to one meal a day. While that's not vegetarian, it certainly is a step in the right direction for everyone on the planet...isn't it?

anyway, these are just some thoughts....not everyone thinks you should take the soft approach. I don't necessarily recommend taking the soft approach, but I do reccomend taking the think for yourself approach if you can be patient and trust that with good information, your children will want to do what is best for themselves and the planet.

B

[ElaineVigneault]

I don't have any good parenting advice, but I have a good story you might like. Children are not little drones who do whatever the adults tell them. They are little people who make up their own minds. I was 6 years old when I announced my decision to become a vegetarian because "I don't eat my friends." My dad thought I was insane and my mom thought it was worth a try. She was/is always up for new things and wanted to lose some weight and change her diet (she'd just had her gall bladder removed). My parents split up, but I remained a vegetarian regardless of what anyone told me. I've been a vegetarian for 25 years now. I just became a vegan recently.

[Life2k]

OK. goth~UK.

I am that important.

Evidently this board has displeased you over and over. There are rules in the TOS about staying on topic and against name calling. There is always the old tried and true favorite. If you don't like the rules, you don't have to stay. But if you choose to stay, you do have to obey the rules. No matter how important YOU think you are, you will find that the mods will apply the sanctions to even the very important people just like the unimportant people. They can't be bought or sold, or blackmailed, or kissed up. Just a friendly hint. You can ignore it, but it is of course your problem and your saction.
Eta:

"nigel would not be amused.


But this is an interview so my next questions:

Have you seen On Her Majesty's Secret Service?

what is your address? I have to send you two movies."

Nigel, this is where you gave us your first name in your own post. So now it is time to give Tofu and Froggy an appology, uh?

If I can find it, it wasn't hiding.

[synergy]

That TNS is dating a mod on this board who knows, officially, that I am nigel, and discloses that information, challenges the integrity of this board.




So... you do realise that you are using your picture in your avatar, right???

[kpickell]

That TNS is dating a mod on this board who knows, officially, that I am XXXX, and discloses that information, challenges the integrity of this board.

I solicited a response from Michael on my situation days ago and have not received anything. By his own word, it is forbidden for mods to share this type of information here or on any other board. I call on the the leadership to reprimand both of them.

If you hadn't quoted that post I never would have known. Just PM someone next time and ask them to edit their post, which TNS did, and now I guess edit your own post.

[Treehugger267]

"Can't we all just get along?"

You guys are pooping on my thread <stomps off pouting>

[Tofu-N-Sprouts]

If you hadn't quoted that post I never would have known. Just PM someone next time and ask them to edit their post, which TNS did, and now I guess edit your own post.

Exactly... (Can we all just say "DUHHHH"?)

And Treehugger, sorry for running away with the thread!

[abroadinSacto]

OK, I do owe an apology to Treehugger, and give it. This is my last post in this thread.

FWIW - my picture and self-reference (which was in the third person, by the way, and appropriate because I was referring to questions that nigel would have asked) were not TNS's excuse for having pegged me.

WRT linking the photo from nigel's interview to my avatar, it would appear that someone has an incredible memory or imagination, and great interest in me to come up with that. Honestly, I'm flattered. Apparently I am that important.

So far as advice to keeping this matter in PMs, that's where I'm going from here-on-out. I encourage the member who chose to make my matters public, and the mod who chose to participate in the discussion, to follow the same (and their own) advice.


Sorry again, Treehugger. Great topic.

[bethanie]

I'm sooooo confused.