Smaller US business VS larger Chinese factories.

[Eclipse]

Yesterday we went to what amounted to a mall for smaller/US/state based businesses. There was hardly anyone there. I muttered they'd rather shop at Walmarts and buy things made in a Chinese factory. If I had money I would have bought something.

I've observed this phenomenon* repeatly here in the USA. People would rather buy from Chinese factories then support our own businesses. I havn't mentioned other countries...so I can only presume that this may be going on else where like too.Even if you feel strongly about supporting Chinese factories, the people there are abused and exploited.
This is why I and some other people hardly ever/never shop Walmarts due to their high involvement with Chinese factories which steal US based jobs and abuse Chinese people.

What can done about this to bring the market back home?.
Higher tariffs for Chinese factories?...maybe a law saying that a store can only carry a certain percentage of Chinese factory products in ratio to products from ones' own country?. Or should the economy not be regulated and the people make the choices, even if that means mostly supporting Chinese factories?.

Also by posting this, I hope people everywhere will consider supporting business in your own country instead of Chinese factories. I'm sure Chinese peoples need jobs too, we just need more balance. Chinese factories have enough support already.
Say you live in the USA and want to buy a candle. Choose a candle produced in in the US rather then a Chinese factory candle.

[pkk]

I'm all for buying local but I'm in favor of a free market too. Consumer's should and do for the most part have a choice on how and where to spend their money.

Why do so many people shop at WalMart and similar places? Price.

[Fromper]

Yes, they shop at Walmart for the price. But the reason prices there are so low is because they purchase from foreign companies that abuse their workers in ways that aren't legal here in the US. Since making products that way isn't legal here, should purchasing products made that way be legal?

--Fromper
:juggle:

[Treehugger267]

It is and has been a downward spiral for years. The Walmart mentality has ruined US business. People are making less money because of "fair trade." Who is it fair too? Certainly not American workers. We barely have a place to work other than at Walmart or McDonalds anymore. Thus, they have less money to spend and go hunting for lower prices and guess who has them. What have we done.

Not in favore of free trade. Tarriffs would be a good place to start.

[kpickell]

People would rather buy from Chinese factories then support our own businesses. The use of the phrase "our own" bugs me tremendously. I am supporting "our own" businesses when I buy from Chinese factories. Why does everyone have to insist on creating arbitrary lines in the sand--we are all playing in the same sandbox. Who cares what country you're born into. This kind of thinking drives me crazy and I despise it more than anything.

[otomik]

But the reason prices there are so low is because they purchase from foreign companies that abuse their workers in ways that aren't legal here in the US. Since making products that way isn't legal here, should purchasing products made that way be legal?There are american sweat shops, it's a problem of enforcement in both china and america rather than a legal issue. What if China made it illegal to buy American goods that were made with illegal immigrant labor? The undervalued yuan gives chinese products a unrealistically low price as well as gives chinese workers an unrealistically low paycheck. Maybe the chinese peasants should rise up in another revolution, as a government of workers it seems to have lost it's legitimacy.

[nogardsram]

It is and has been a downward spiral for years. The Walmart mentality has ruined US business. People are making less money because of "fair trade." Who is it fair too? Certainly not American workers. We barely have a place to work other than at Walmart or McDonalds anymore. Thus, they have less money to spend and go hunting for lower prices and guess who has them. What have we done.

Not in favore of free trade. Tarriffs would be a good place to start.

By fair trade do you mean the following? Somehow I don't think this is what was being discussed... Or am I wrong?
----
noun
1. trade that satisfies certain criteria on the supply chain of the goods involved, usually including fair payment for producers; often with other social and environmental considerations
2. trade that is conducted legally
----

I also agree with kpickell...

[Wolfie]

I try to buy American when I can and will pay more for it. While in a perfect world it shouldn't matter what country you're born into, I find I care more about myself, my family and friends who have lost/will lose jobs due to outsourcing than I do about someone living in China. And I care more about my nephews and niece getting decent jobs when they're older than I care about where a kid in China will work when he's an adult. Of course I did buy a foreign car, so I'm not perfect at practicing what I preach. I felt it was the safest car at what I could afford and, here again, I was more concerned about my safety and the safety of those who ride with me than I was about John Doe at the GM plant whom I'm never met.

And Walmart is The Devil. :p

[Sketchy]

It is and has been a downward spiral for years. The Walmart mentality has ruined US business. People are making less money because of "fair trade." Who is it fair too? Certainly not American workers. We barely have a place to work other than at Walmart or McDonalds anymore. Thus, they have less money to spend and go hunting for lower prices and guess who has them. What have we done.

Not in favore of free trade. Tarriffs would be a good place to start.

Fair Trade usually refers to paying suppliers/manufacturers a fair price for their goods - and not using exploitative trade practices (share-cropping, market-shaping).

Free Trade refers to a reduction or abolition of trade barriers (tarrifs, quotas, taxes).

Sam Walton has gone reverse Henry Ford - rather than offer a wage for which ensures a market, as Ford did, Wal Mart has slashed wages and benefits (to keep prices low) and ensure that the only place employees can shop is with Wal Mart or other discount retailers.

Every dollar you spend at Wal Mart reduces the overall quality of life in North America, but unfortunately one of the few things propping up the US Economy at this point is consumer spending. Barring or reducing trade with China could have a serious effect on the US Economy, including a recession or depression, because of the amount of consumer goods imported from China for sale in the US.

[Kiz]

The use of the phrase "our own" bugs me tremendously. I am supporting "our own" businesses when I buy from Chinese factories. Why does everyone have to insist on creating arbitrary lines in the sand--we are all playing in the same sandbox. Who cares what country you're born into. This kind of thinking drives me crazy and I despise it more than anything.


There are a whole lot of reasons to buy locally that don't involve arbitrary lines in the sand. I buy as locally as possible whenever I can.

[Fromper]

There are a whole lot of reasons to buy locally that don't involve arbitrary lines in the sand. I buy as locally as possible whenever I can.
Yeah, I was going to go there next.

For starters, there's the environment. Buying locally means that your goods don't have to travel as far to get to you. Less distance = less fuel used = less polution = less global warming = lower demand for fuel = lower fuel prices. It probably doesn't affect demand enough to actually help with fuel prices, but the slightly lower pollution probably has a long term impact, if enough people buy locally often enough.

Also, as I stated earlier, I try to buy goods that I know were made by workers who weren't exploited. I'm not so picky that I'll go out of my way and spend huge amounts more, but given the choice between buying from a country with reasonable labor laws and some enforcement (not always perfect, I know) vs buying from a country with a reputation for sweat shops, I'll buy from the country that treats its workers better every time, even if it costs a little more.

--Fromper
:juggle:

[kpickell]

Environmental concerns are valid.

Avoiding goods produced in sweatshops is a valid concern also.

But the whole idea of getting upset that someone in China is "stealing" our jobs is troublesome at best. They are not stealing anything. And they are no less deserving of jobs and revenue sources than people from other countries.

[Eclipse]

Yes Chinese people are just as deserving of having jobs as US people.
What shouldn't happen is them having the jobs at the expense of US people by having lower labor laws that don't exist in the US. I know someone here mentioned US sweatshops...I don't know much about this other then it seems to be at the very least a much worse problem in China.

The flaws I see in this is:
- The Chinese people working at these factories are not the ones benifiting from the situation, the people exploiting them are.

- We need more of a balance and there is too high a percentage of products from Chinese factories. The Chinese market should not take over our markets to the extent that that most US people stop buying US made products.

We don't need to stop buying foreign made products alltogether, just buy less of them and purchase alternatives ( such as local products for enviromental reasons) when possible.

[kpickell]

I disagree completely, and think we should be buying MORE foreign made products and creating larger market economies in foreign countries where the people really Need the jobs. We don't know the meaning of the word "need" in the United States. There are only two ways we can create better job conditions in these countries, 1) work to change the laws and 2) create a competitive job market. The more jobs we can export to needy countries the more competition there will be in the market and wages will start to go up and job conditions will improve.

[soilman]

While underpaid, poorly treated workers are common in China, they exist in the US too. The solution to that is not to make tariffs based on the country. The solution to that is to make tariffs based on the specific factory. However it is more difficult for US inspectors to inspect a factory in China than it is for them to inspect a factory in the US. Some kind of inspection system with uniform minimum requirements for worker-treatment and pay needs to be created.

Just how DO we get Walmart's buyers to inspect a Chinese factory and truthfully report what they have found, to a US agency?

Perhaps an easier alternative is for consumers to refuse to buy from a factory unless it has submitted to some kind of voluntary "no-sweat-shop" inspection, by an independent third party. I think that companies like No-Sweat Apparel (http://shakahara.com/links.html) seem to be on the right track.

[Gnome Chomsky]

>>People would rather buy from Chinese factories then support our own businesses.>>

You are posing the decision incorrectly. The choice is more whether we support larger multinational capitalists or smaller, local firms. This is a class-issue, not a regional issue.

>>Maybe the chinese peasants should rise up in another revolution, as a government of workers it seems to have lost it's legitimacy.>>

I know you're being facetious, but we might as well lay down explicitly that such legitimacy never existed in the first place.

>>think we should be buying MORE foreign made products and creating larger market economies in foreign countries where the people really Need the jobs.>>

This is just as much of a temporary and chauvinist solution as proposing the establishment of tariffs. The simple premises are as follows:
1. The capitalist system depends on increased rates of exploitation in semi or newly proletarianized zones.
2. Neither free-trade nor a system of tariffs are "neutral". The question is which group of capitalists will benefit. Workers receive only collateral benefits.

Within the current system, these tendencies may be tempered, but only temporarily and incompletely.

ebola

[Kiz]

Environmental concerns are valid.

Avoiding goods produced in sweatshops is a valid concern also.

But the whole idea of getting upset that someone in China is "stealing" our jobs is troublesome at best. They are not stealing anything. And they are no less deserving of jobs and revenue sources than people from other countries.

There are also economic benefits to buying locally. There is nothing at all wrong with supporting one's neighbours. This doesn't mean one thinks one's neighbours are more "deserving" than someone living overseas, but they are still one's neighbours. I'll always choose a local product over one from another state if I can.

[Huckleberry]

This thread is a good reason for me to quit buying anything from China.

http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=71273

Maybe someday when they actually have some standards in place I will rethink this issue.

[Treehugger267]

I may be in the minority here, but I want a line drawn in the sand and I do believe we should support our own businesses and workers. We cannot compete with nations that will work for 50 cents per hour. Our country is in a downward spiral. Our factories are gone. Obviously, quality control issues are a real concern. Why is it so wrong to want good jobs for our own kids? Why is it so wrong to support our own country? I live here in America and so do my kids. I do support American made products because I want there to be American jobs. We don't make anything anymore, for goodness sakes we are even importing wheat! Why, because it's cheaper. Where did this get us? I wish we could go back to the time when we produced items to buy at a fair price so that our workers would have a place to work and money to spend. Our way of life is changing here. No, most of us aren't starving, but the gap between the rich that so many like to point to and call average Americans and the poor, which is growing in number very quickly is eye opening and very scary. Places like China are doing a wonderful job exporting because they work for almost nothing. Are they importing at the same rate? No! It's hurting our country and my children's future.

[Bonoluvr]

I try to buy local as much as i can..........but in reality i have to use walmart for some purchases, because i live 30 min from any other stores.........so i can either use up gas, my car, time, and pay more, or i can drive 3 miles up the road to walmart.
so yeah, when i can and depending on what it is i buy local.......for some stuff though walmart rules :)

[Bonoluvr]

Eclipse...........where is this mall with all american made local products?

[Treehugger267]

I try to buy local as much as i can..........but in reality i have to use walmart for some purchases, because i live 30 min from any other stores.........so i can either use up gas, my car, time, and pay more, or i can drive 3 miles up the road to walmart.
so yeah, when i can and depending on what it is i buy local.......for some stuff though walmart rules :)

I live about 20 miles from any major stores as well and have shopped at Walmart on rare occassion out of necessity too. There just aren't as many options anymore. Huge corporate congloms like Walmart offering a lower price because they import from places like China have killed off the mom and pop shops that we could once shop at. I'm sure it was the plan from the beginning. It's all just corporate greed. They care nothing about American jobs, only about selling at the lowest price. It's hard when our wallets are all but empty not to fall into it. Nasty cycle and our workers are suffering for it.

[Gnome Chomsky]

>>wish we could go back to the time when we produced items to buy at a fair price so that our workers would have a place to work and money to spend.>>

This time never existed.

ebola

[Treehugger267]

>>wish we could go back to the time when we produced items to buy at a fair price so that our workers would have a place to work and money to spend.>>

This time never existed.

ebola

The was a time when we manufactured things and didn't import just about everything. When we had work for our workers and at a decent wage. We are quickly being left working at Walmarts, McDonalds or telemarketing companies (ie: low paying service jobs). NAFTA = bad for US workers in my opinion.

[soilman]

>>wish we could go back to the time when we produced items to buy at a fair price so that our workers would have a place to work and money to spend.>>

This time never existed.

In the US, it most certainly DID exist to a good degree. A period after World War 2, from 1949 to 1951, was when. This is when the people of the US were still united together but their common enemy was defeated and so for a short while they focused on celebrating by being fair to each other and congratulating each other for the teamwork that went into winning the war, and helped out their teamates, instead of viewing them as competitors.

After this brief union against a real enemy without, we began turning toward a fight against imaginary enemies within. First communists, then drugs, then mental illness.