Many newspaper inches have been devoted to this topic as of late, and there's a strong sense that the Uk is starting to crack down on Animal Rights Extremism.

In my eyes, this is a brilliant thing. Bodies have been dug up, shareholders have been sent death threats, and I was talking earlier today with someone who knows a GSK shareholder who had been sent a couple of death threats.

Not to mention that employees of various institutions have been targeted, in various harassment campaigns, and that these harassment campaigns have targeted some very strangely drawn out targets.

In all honesty, I'm pretty surprised that the police haven't been able to prosecute a lot of extremists yet. It's pretty crap that there are people out there who do resort to violence to make their points. Wouldn't it be more effective to set up a legitimate organisation and make the case against vivisection etc?

But knowing Tony Blair's crappy labour government, (Of course, a blue-man such as myself would see red at labour anyway) not much will get done, and I'd be surprised if the extremists even got an ASBO. And in all seriousness, with the campaigns of harassment, vandalism, firebombing and all tomfoolery, you're looking more at a long stretch in one of her majesty's houses for those who break the law.

You're up late! :)
I agree with you. I was appalled and very ashamed at the tactics that have been used in the UK. And, instead of it having a positive effect on animal welfare it has had the opposite - Tony was pretty silent on where he stood on animal testing for example up until recently, but in light of the GSK issue and the grave robbing he's now said he supports animal testing.

Well done all the pillocks who think it is big and clever to terrify not only adults but also children...congratulations on stooping to a new low. Not only have they tarnished the animal welfare and animal rights movements, but they've also ruined any iota of a chance that the government would seek a reduction in animal testing.

It is a bloody farce. I will NEVER agree that the way to rectify a wrong is through violence or the threat of it.

Well done all the pillocks who think it is big and clever to terrify not only adults but also children...congratulations on stooping to a new low. Not only have they tarnished the animal welfare and animal rights movements, but they've also ruined any iota of a chance that the government would seek a reduction in animal testing.

It is a bloody farce. I will NEVER agree that the way to rectify a wrong is through violence or the threat of it.

It's frustrating when someone holds a similar view to you, but expresses that view in such an abhorrent fashion! They could be doing something useful, but instead they make the rest of us look like nutters.

i agree - some AR people have gone too far recently. I've got a friend at oxford uni (last year of a 7 year phd - he isnt on a biology/animal science degree, and he went there before they started building the lab) and he's been harassed a couple of times. His hall has had windows smashed and paint stripper poured on some of the cars. He said they regularly get abuse shouted at them when they come out of lectures. It doesnt make sense to target ALL students at a uni - how many of them went there because of the lab? none of them because it wont be ready for use while any of them are still there!

Leave the students, cleaning ladies and kitchen staff alone people - RAR!

Then again, i'm peeved at the uni for trying to limit the anti-lab demonstrations to a max of 12 people for 1 hour only :whip:

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/news/education/oxford-uni-tackles-animal-rights-protestors-$440167.htm

Is this what you are refering to? I didn't see anything about bodies being dug up. Do you have a link?

The grave robbing incident can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Rights_Militia#Gladys_Hammond)

Not only are they doing terrible things, but it is turning public opinion against animal rights and testing, as illustrated by the recent wave of pro-testing demos and petitions.

Not only are they doing terrible things, but it is turning public opinion against animal rights and testing, as illustrated by the recent wave of pro-testing demos and petitions.


That is the worst of it, that extremists make other activists look bad by association. It's really tragic. :(

There's definitely a problem, and I can't believe that it's taken the government so long to actually crack down on this.

Fortunately, I'm quite aware that there won't be all that many animal rights extremists. It'll just be a few people doing a lot of firebombing. So hopefully, once five or six of these nutters get locked up, everyone will be safe.

That said, I think that it may have been detrimental to legitimate organisations seeking to further their agenda. Public opinion has definitely turned towards animal testing, and whilst I can't say that I am against animal testing for medical purposes, I do believe in legitimate dialogue, and I believe that the actions of a few loonies with petrol bombs will have prevented legitimate organisations campaigning and lobbying against vivisection from having their voices heard.

However, one of the major problems is that the ALF is leaderless. Which is a shame, really, since you can't just throw a rape alarm into their head office, and see how they like it.

I don't agree with the letter bombs (at all) but aside from that, I say go ALF
Just don't engage in violence. Stealing a dead body is nothing compared to having who knows what poured into your eye. Or worse.

I guess I'm a nutter.

I guess I'm a nutter.Straight from the madhouse!

I don't agree with the letter bombs (at all) but aside from that, I say go ALF
Just don't engage in violence. Stealing a dead body is nothing compared to having who knows what poured into your eye. Or worse.

I guess I'm a nutter.


But what good is it if it turns more people against animal rights? What good is it if it makes things worse? I could see it if they were actually saving animals, but to waste time digging up dead bodies! Why?

Stealing a dead body is nothing compared to having who knows what poured into your eye. Or worse.

Somehow, I'm not convinced. It has been said many times before that two wrongs do not make for one right.

Stealing a dead body isn't all that bad, unless you're the poor sod whose gran's been dug up by some necro-maniac. And personally, I wouldn't want the bodies of any of my relatives to be dug up, so I would heartily say that digging up dead bodies is out of the question.

Somehow, I'm not convinced. It has been said many times before that two wrongs do not make for one right.

Stealing a dead body isn't all that bad, unless you're the poor sod whose gran's been dug up by some necro-maniac. And personally, I wouldn't want the bodies of any of my relatives to be dug up, so I would heartily say that digging up dead bodies is out of the question.
Yeah and its never just one poor relative who has to endure that, it is almost always several.

Great way to turn the next generation against your very ideas, dig up thier grandma or great ganny to show them your serious and I'll show you a new generation who will not only not support the goal your working for but activly work against it.

I don't really care what happens to the dead bodies of my relatives, or myself (if I were dead). Why should I? It's just a husk :)

I don't really care what happens to the dead bodies of my relatives, or myself (if I were dead). Why should I? It's just a husk :)I think, though, that the rationality of people's views about dead bodies isn't relevant for the morality of digging up bodies - what matters, and what the actions are based on, is just how much distress it causes.

But some make the argument that just as vivisection involves an ends justifies the means ethic, so do the ALF actions. If this is so, then it works the other way around, too. If you support the ends justify the means ethic of medical experimentation, then you should understand the ALF/SHAC people who are committed to a similar justification.

I think illegal methods are problematic, but I won't say they are all bad. Violence and threats of violence is not helping the cause, quite the opposite. Sabotage is also problematic in that it tends to allow the fur farmers or animal experimenters or whoever is the target to present themselves as the victim, and the media will mostly listen to them, and not to the activists.

Out of the illegal methods, I think civil disobediance where the activists are not acting anonymously is the better option. An acquaintance/friend of mine took part in something like that a few years ago. They broke in and stole some dogs from a breeder that breeds dogs specifically for animal experiments. Later they went to the police and turned themselves in, although they never gave back the dogs, of course. They got fairly positive media coverage, and gave illegal AR actions a face. Of course, the downside is that you run the risk of sanctions from the Law, but I think they got away with only minor fines.

But some make the argument that just as vivisection involves an ends justifies the means ethic, so do the ALF actions. If this is so, then it works the other way around, too. If you support the ends justify the means ethic of medical experimentation, then you should understand the ALF/SHAC people who are committed to a similar justification.

that's an interesting point.

Honestly, I'm losing respect for ARA's rather quickly.

Sure, it's bad that there are animals being tortured, killed, etc; but um. Hello? What about the humans? The innocent civilians in Iraq being murdered by suicide bombs, the prisoners rotting in GITMO every day, the innocent, the guilty.

I think it's selfish and frankly, insane for us to be crusading for the rights of animals when there are humans in the world that have less rights than my dog does. My dog is free to run around, bark, eat, drink, lick people, and so on. There are your animal rights. Now, let me see every human on the planet have their basic rights, and I'll talk to you about doing one of these illegal protests and ruining property. Until then, I'll be doing my own thing.

/soapbox

I think it's selfish and frankly, insane for us to be crusading for the rights of animals when there are humans in the world that have less rights than my dog does. My dog is free to run around, bark, eat, drink, lick people, and so on. There are your animal rights.

maybe YOUR dog, but not a dog in a laboratory or a dog in China, or a pig or chicken on a farm, or any of the other 10 BILLION animals tortured and killed for food in the US alone each year. Seriously, you need to learn about what happens to the vast majority of animals humans have control over. It's blind to the plight of the huge majority to use your pet as the example of how animals are treated. It would be more accurate to use my pampered first-world child as the example of how all kids in the world are cared for. Or use yourself - you're pretty free, right? Even more so than your dog. So there must be no need to campaign for human rights. Right?

http://www.whyvegan.com http://www.meetyourmeat.com

Also, it's extremely rude to piss on the progressive causes that others work on. There are lots of activists who work on causes that I wouldn't necessarily choose to work on, but I don't tell them that their causes are insane, or call them "selfish" (which I don't even know where you get that - fighting for animals does not benefit the humans who do it. It is much more "selfish" to fight for human causes, as one is basically fighting for oneself). People are moved by different issues and will work on what they see fit.

Also, it's extremely rude to piss on the progressive causes that others work on.


So that's rude, but to dig up someone's deceased family member simply because someone in the family is engaged in an activity that ALF/SHAC/whateverothera-holesareoutthere disagrees with is just ducky?

:lol:
I can't write **** that funny!

Honestly, I'm losing respect for ARA's rather quickly.

Sure, it's bad that there are animals being tortured, killed, etc; but um. Hello? What about the humans? The innocent civilians in Iraq being murdered by suicide bombs, the prisoners rotting in GITMO every day, the innocent, the guilty.

I think it's selfish and frankly, insane for us to be crusading for the rights of animals when there are humans in the world that have less rights than my dog does. My dog is free to run around, bark, eat, drink, lick people, and so on. There are your animal rights. Now, let me see every human on the planet have their basic rights, and I'll talk to you about doing one of these illegal protests and ruining property. Until then, I'll be doing my own thing.

/soapbox

So you're out there 24/7 campaigning for human rights, are you?

The sad thing was that Tony compaired the grave robbing to the letter writing campaign against GSK, the two are completely unrelated.
I hate politicans who link two completely different things as justifaction for their actions (ie Bush, terrorist=Sadam=war in Iraq)
But as to extremists harrasing random univeresty students, that's low. It's like harassing an English major at Columbia University (which has one of the better English programs) simply because a lab is there, like they went because of it. Despicable.

Honestly, I'm losing respect for ARA's rather quickly.

Sure, it's bad that there are animals being tortured, killed, etc; but um. Hello? What about the humans? The innocent civilians in Iraq being murdered by suicide bombs, the prisoners rotting in GITMO every day, the innocent, the guilty.

I think it's selfish and frankly, insane for us to be crusading for the rights of animals when there are humans in the world that have less rights than my dog does. My dog is free to run around, bark, eat, drink, lick people, and so on. There are your animal rights. Now, let me see every human on the planet have their basic rights, and I'll talk to you about doing one of these illegal protests and ruining property. Until then, I'll be doing my own thing.

/soapboxI love this post in that it so candidly manages to be ignorant (using pets as some kind of example how animals are treated - and I guess you forgot the pet industry and the countless animals "euthanized" every year), fallacious/mistaken (thinking that AR activism somehow excludes human rights activism - actually a lot of AR activists are active in human rights causes, unlike people who spend their time on the Internet criticizing others for doing something), nonsensical (AR activists being "selfish") and probably hypocritical (what have YOU done for human rights?) at the same time.

I'll never forget how the ANC was branded a terrorist organisation and Margaret Thatcher saying that Mandela was a terrorist.

Anyway, to get back to the subject on hand, the "extremists" certainly keep the AR cause in the news. The fact that they go to such lengths to get their voices heard certainly creates debate and AR is in the news often.

I had never HEARD of the word "animal rights" before I read about it in the news. And why did the newspapers talk about it? Because of the "extremists". I remember thinking when I first heard about them: "These guys sound sick in the head". And then I started researching. And reading. And then I realised that they were not sick but it was only the newspapers making them sound that way.

And then after reading loads about AR and the origins of AR and the exploitation of animals being similar to the WWII holocaust, the AR cause became one of the most important for me.

The "extremists" do not necessarily turn the public against AR. I am only one person who can testify to that, but I am certain there are MANY people whose story is similar to mine.

I do not agree with all the actions undertaken by activists in the name of the ALF or AR. But that does not mean that I do not support the philosophy and the main thrust of the movement.