This is a conversation that I had with a very good friend of mine and I am at a lost as to how to address this. I was wondering if any one had some ideas.(not the best speller) he's in red

little_shoyru: no eggs and yet you'd eat plants?
secrecy02002: ok why
little_shoyru: this is total hypocrisy
little_shoyru: they're living things too!
little_shoyru: plants have highly developed organ systems, they have nervous systems
little_shoyru: they're just as competent as we are
secrecy02002: oh my god i thought you more intellegent than that
little_shoyru: but they do....*spooky voice*
little_shoyru: maybe not as developed in the payload as higher animals
little_shoyru: but they have enough guts to survive is all I'm saying...plus I just love bringing that subject up
secrecy02002: why?
little_shoyru: It just boggles me why it's okay to eat plants and not animals...
little_shoyru: and that comes from me having studied plants for a while
secrecy02002: for one i don't think plants have their sexual organs rips out or straved or crowed into small spaces where they have to fight violently for food air and water or crammed into truck on top of each other to be transported to their death nor do i think plants are taken from their mothers at a young age
secrecy02002: nor do i think plant have their teeth ripped out tail cut off breaks seared off
secrecy02002: toes removed
secrecy02002: impregnated constantly until they can no longer breed
secrecy02002: beat just because
little_shoyru: so you don't think that humans use plants for their equivalents in everyone of the topics you've mentioned?
secrecy02002: have their skulls bashed in
little_shoyru: do you consider bacteria on the same level as highly organized animals?
secrecy02002: i just find it hard to believe
secrecy02002: i'm not says on the other hand that eating meat or plants is right or wrong either
secrecy02002: we have to eat or we die
secrecy02002: but i think we need to have more resepct for animals
little_shoyru: what about the plants? Just because plants don't have the ability to scream or run away or cower doesn't mean that they don't feel pain, or that they don't die, and look at the way humans have used plants for food?
little_shoyru: and not just food, all the other uses
little_shoyru: and then look at bacteria and how they are used
secrecy02002: so what are we supposed to strave and die?
secrecy02002: how would you say we eat?
little_shoyru: I say, we do as we have to do, and I'm all for cutting down suffering, but if you're going to express respect for animals, then why the singling out of them and not other living entities?
cris robe: ok i don't go out and beat my tomato plants
little_shoyru: because you raise them to eat them
little_shoyru: why not?

little_shoyru: but what about weeds that happen to grow near them?
little_shoyru: All I'm saying is that there is a plant counterpart in this world
secrecy02002: there aren't any weeds near my tomatoes
little_shoyru: just because they can't communicate with us makes them no different than us
little_shoyru: and you don't go out and beat plants or animals do you?
little_shoyru: don't make it personal
secrecy02002: it is personal because you attaching my beliefs and who i am and have been for the last 10 to 11 years, how am i supposed to take?

You could tell him to put down the bong for a while and then get back to you.

Plants don't have nervous systems and therefore pain receptors. Tell him he needs to study plants some more.

Plus there's the argument that eating lower on the food chain is more hamonious with all living things, especially in comparison to the typical American diet.

i've had similar discussions with my bf- and i think plants should be treated better than they are too- they're forced from seedlings, pumped full of chemicals, sprayed, proded, sliced, grown en mass under artifical light in conditions that aren't nice- teeny pots, chemically altered water and soil, etc. and then their fruits are all plucked, and cold stored to stop them going over too fast, shipped all over the place, poor little rose plants are suddenly switched between a warm polytunnel and the front of a cold convenience store for sale, and if they don't look like supermodels or sell before they succumb to the trauma, or make the grade in some aesthetic way, they're burned, hacked up, mulched, or shredded. poor plants.

i'm sure i've heard that there are some studies which show they feel pain, and that some plants give off chemicals to show they percieve a threat- but maybe i only think that cos my meat eating bf keeps saying it though- but i do know that they do things to make themselves taste bad, and try to protect themselves, like nettles and cacti, for example, although thats perhaps not done on a sentient level.

Humans do have to eat something though.... i suppose its a question of ethical boundaires. i guess there are only a few options, including:

-ignore it and think 'at least i'm doing SOMETHING' (thats my plan)

-eat and buy organically grown plants from companies you trust to treat them nicely (i don't know if any company will talk to all the plants and lovingly transplant seedlings from 'weeds' though).

-grow all your own food from seed, and treat everything from the wheat to the rice to the tomatoes to the pineapples (which take a while to grow, lol) really nicely, so at least they'll have a nice life while they're with you.

-become a fruitarian and don't eat anything that died as a result of your culinary intervention. then at least you're only guilty of murdering the plants unborn children, right?

This guy is abusing you for the fun of it. Just tell him you are sure you can learn to live with out him.

As I recall the "plant sensory system" experiments have not been successfully replicated, therefore do not pass the "peer review" portion of the scientific method. One guy saying "I found out plants can feel!" is not good science.

The problem with that conversation is that you are letting him dominate the line of questions. Ask him if you can ask the questions and go more from this angle:

you: Do you support the SPCA and similar organizations?

him: No, I've never given them money.

you: I'm mean in principle. Do you like the idea of them rescuing dogs that are being abused and tortured?

him: Well. That's different.

you: Different than what, it's just a question. Do you think dogs and cats should be protected by law?

him: yes

you: Do you think people should be able to torture them?

him: no.

you: Well, what if a dog that is known to be violent was about to attack a child? Do you think someone should be able to beat and even kill the dog to save the child if necessary?

him: yes

you: So it depends on necessity whether one should be able to beat or kill a dog.

him: I guess so.

you: Well, that's the way I see it with pigs. You have asserted that plants feel the same way as animals but this has never been proven by research and common sense will tell you that anyway. But it has been proven many times over that pigs and dogs feel pain and are roughly equivalent in intelligence. I think hanging a pig up by its hind legs and slitting its throat would be the same as if someone did that to a dog. I'm opposed to people doing that to a dog and to pigs. I'm not opposed to people doing that to a zucchini. People don't need to eat meat and so I don't eat meat. I'm living out my principles as consistently as I can.

If you want to people to be able to needlessly torture animals then you should at least be consistent and allow people to torture dogs and cats. With every situation that farm animals end up in you should imagine a dog and/or a cat. Either we should have laws that protect all animals or none of them. You can't have it both ways.

I guarantee that if you ask those questions he'll give you those exact answers, lol. Anyway, I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.

And you might want to get him to watch Meet Your Meat and tell him you'll watch a show about gardening. Then you can ask him which one he thinks is more cruel. I do believe that plants should be treated better but I find it interesting that omnis are always the ones most concerned about plants. I'll bet his concern goes no further than his arguement against animal rights.

I wouldn't get into many details about it.
Though it's clear that your friend is just trying to annoy you, my response to this kind of question, is that we all draw the line somewhere. Some people eat dogs, some people refuse to. Some people draw the line at meat, some at dairy, and some only eat what's already fallen off the tree. I don't like to be judgemental. Your choice on what to eat is as valid as my choice. I see mine as more moral, but that's an internal viewpoint, not something I need to force on you. Education however, that's a different story...

I find it interesting that omnis are always the ones most concerned about plants. .

I too have noticed this. It is their "witty" way to belittle those of us who make a humane choice.
I wonder if they care so much about all the plants that die to feed the cattle, hogs & chicken providing THEIR food?
What do they suppose those animals eat? I know farm animals are often fed meat by-products, but there's some vegetable matter in there as well.

Ask him if he eats plants

I suppose all you would need to say in response is "You're an idiot shoyru."

Afterall, it's not like they actually believe anything they're saying. And if they do, then they really are an idiot. So either way, it's safe to call them an idiot. :yes:

I agree with kpickell. You could politely change the subject, or just tell him he's being a jerk, that whether he means to or not he's winding you up and hurting your feelings and if he considers himself your friend he should stop harrassing you about this.

Someone here on VB (I don't rememebr who) told me you can say, you are 'hurting' less plants by just eating plants instead of eating plants as well as animals that eat plants*. Furthermore, no one who knows animals feels pain yet stil eats them has any business asking a veg-ian if plants might. Completely contradictory. They should only be bringing that up with you with they are veg and going fruitarian. (not to say fruitarians think or claim plants actually feel, but still, the principle of not destroying a plant for food can apply.)

*edited to add: as well as other nasty things
And like Ickle says too, whether they are just playing devil's advocate or not, your friend shouldn't push the issue with you.

i think the arguement that at least you're hurting LESS plants than them (i'd add in a big old 'so THERE :p ' at this point) is a really valid one.