Environmental issues regarding meat/dairy replacers...

[piratemoon]

This may be the wrong forum to post this in - if it is I appologise.

I was wondering about the environmental impact of dairy replacements - more specifically soya milk, as I have read that soy beans are quite land demanding. Am I right in this? If so, what are the most ecologically sound alternatives?

[Ludi]

I think nut milks would be the best choice because trees are a perennial crop.

[organica]

I would still think soy crops are easier on land use, water use, & general ecology than raising cattle.

[Ludi]

I would still think soy crops are easier on land use, water use, & general ecology than raising cattle.


In general, yes. Though a cow or goat home-raised on grass, versus chemical agriculture of soy crops, would probably come out ahead in the environmental friendliness department. Organic or home raised soy would very possibly beat the home raised animal milk, though, probably taking less land and water to produce the same amount of milk, though I haven't researched this. In general, plant products take fewer resources than animal products.

[piratemoon]

I would still think soy crops are easier on land use, water use, & general ecology than raising cattle.
Generally ethically speaking I am so with you on that. I just wondered, as it came up in some reading I was doing. I'm beginning to think humankind really lost the plot when it started farming to begin with!

[peacecat]

it's true growing soy takes up a lot of land, however, a huge amount of the soy grown in this country and others is grown as animal feed. i would imagine that if one drinks organic soy milk the beans are from a much smaller and more environmentally sustainable farm source.

[Ludi]

Generally ethically speaking I am so with you on that. I just wondered, as it came up in some reading I was doing. I'm beginning to think humankind really lost the plot when it started farming to begin with!


It's not so much farming itself, but HOW our culture farms. We put the wellbeing of our preferrred plants and animals over the wellbeing of every other plant and animal, and wipe those others out in preference of our own. This destroys both local and widescale ecosystems. Other civilizations have collapsed because they destroyed their ecosystem. We've brought our method of farming to nearly every part of the planet now, resulting in wholesale damage and destruction of the Earth's life systems.

[piratemoon]

Yeah, I know. We are parasitic, and we needn't be. I hope we can learn.

And I was being a little excessive before. :)

[Ludi]

I'm a big believer in the various methods of "natural farming" such as permaculture:

http://www.permacultureactivist.net/

One of my heroes is Masanobu Fukuoka, the famous Japanese natural farmer who pioneered methods of growing rice and other grains to emulate natural systems:

http://www.carnatic.com/karmasaya/index.php?Masanobu%20Fukuoka

http://www.amberwaves.org/web_articles/fukuoka.html

[piratemoon]

Ludi those websites look really interesting. I shall peruse them. Thank you!

[sorrowthepig]

If so, what are the most ecologically sound alternatives?
Redistributing the >97% of the US soybean crop that goes to feed cows used for beef and dairy, chickens used for eggs and meat, pigs, sheep, goats and fish to feed people instead. Oh, and reallocating the 25 gal. of water a cow used for dairy needs to produce 1 gal. of milk to plant-based crop irrigation. Consideration of water usage by animal agribusiness gets overlooked too often. But I would imagine it will become more of a forefront issue when children are thirsty and it costs $5 every time one of them flushes an urban toilet.

[Jim Gagnepain]

Relatively speaking, soybeans are a fairly easy crop to grow organically. And I don't see it as being that "land intensive". Certainly it's less so than corn. It's also a legume, so it's nitrogen fixing, and thus is a great rotation crop with corn, wheat, beats, or other vegetables. Most farmers could improve their soil by rotating legumes into their fields. Many grow corn in the same fields year after year, which depletes the soil of nitrogen. Thus most of them apply ammonium fertilizers.

[caldini]

Most farmers could improve their soil by rotating legumes into their fields. Many grow corn in the same fields year after year, which depletes the soil of nitrogen. Thus most of them apply ammonium fertilizers.

And in doing so the soil is "killed". Check out this website of a farm in England. Amittedly it is a primarily a livestock farm, but read about Arthur Hollins' organic farming system - it's an eye opener:

http://www.fordhallfarm.com/
&
http://www.fordhallfarm.com/Fordhall%27s%20Organic%20Farming%20System.rtf

[Romac]

I don't have the land requirements for soy farming immediately available, but i do have these stats at hand:

2.5 acres of land can feed:
23 people if cabbage is grown
22 people if potatoes is grown
19 people if rice is grown
17 people if corn is grown
15 people if wheat is grown
2 people if chicken are produced
2 people if milk is produced
1 person if eggs are produced
1 person if beef is produced

The stats use the caloric daily requirements of an average person, and of course are not trying to represent a balanced diet.

So i'd imagine that soy falls somewhere in the range between being 15 to 23 times more efficient land use than cows (for milk or meat).

[piratemoon]

So i'd imagine that soy falls somewhere in the range between being 15 to 23 times more efficient land use than cows (for milk or meat).

I have no doubt that the farming of soy crops is far more economical than farming meat. I guess I shall just have to keep doing the best I can. Thanks for the stats though, they were illuminating.

[*Star*Lass*]

This was on the news the other day. Soya crops are forcing tribes out of the rainforest due to deforestation. The vast majority of the soya crops are for cattle feed, but obviously the demand for soya milk and other soya products must add to that. So, yeh, either seek out organic soya milk or switch to rice or nut milks, if you're concerned. I've been considering doing so the last few days.

[piratemoon]

This was on the news the other day. Soya crops are forcing tribes out of the rainforest due to deforestation. The vast majority of the soya crops are for cattle feed, but obviously the demand for soya milk and other soya products must add to that. So, yeh, either seek out organic soya milk or switch to rice or nut milks, if you're concerned. I've been considering doing so the last few days.

Wow, hadn't heard of that. I might go back to oatmilk then. Rice milk was kind of thin...

[Jim Gagnepain]

This was on the news the other day. Soya crops are forcing tribes out of the rainforest due to deforestation. The vast majority of the soya crops are for cattle feed, but obviously the demand for soya milk and other soya products must add to that. So, yeh, either seek out organic soya milk or switch to rice or nut milks, if you're concerned. I've been considering doing so the last few days.

Your statement about "cattle feed" is true, so why jump to the next conclusion. It's not the fault of the Vegetarian AT ALL that these forests are being cut down. Non-rainforest soy production easily meets the needs, of human consumption, with much, much to spare.

Here's a link along with the relative quote:
http://www.mongabay.com/external/record_amazon_deforestation_2002.htm
>Vast new tracts of virgin forest in the states of Mato Grosso and Para are being put to the chainsaw, according to figures from the Brazilian government, and turned into farmland - much of it used for growing soya beans, which end up as industrial cattle feed in Europe.