Problems With My Non-Vegetarian Mother

[VegMom]

Hi,
I've been a vegetarian for many years, my relatives and in-laws are not. Neither is my husband, but we are raising our daughter (who is now 4) vegetarian. Now, most of my family has been supportive, but there are the occasional questions and such, no big deal.

I always used to worry about my daughter eating unhealthy and/or meat while spending the night at her Grandma's (my mom's) house, and sometimes wondered if she was "sneaking" her meat. Every time she stayed at grandma's my husband and I would ask my daughter and my mom what she had had to eat. They would always tell us it was something vegetarian (cheese pizza, PB&J, veggie dogs, etc). Just recently my mom told my husband on the phone; not to tell Karen (me) but she gave <my daughter> pizza with meat toppings when she was up there. Well, my husband got our daughter to "fess up" (sort of). I guessed what it was. She was pretty upset and was in tears, saying "I'm never going to tell! Never!" She finally did tell me a little. (eg: Grandma never got veggie dogs; only meat hot dogs). This is something that had been going on a long time...

I am so angry that my mom lied to me about what my daughter was eating. And even more so for encouraging her to keep secrets from, and lie to her parents! Convincing her that "what mommy & daddy don't know won't hurt them" and that she better not tell us because we would be mad. I am also angry because this is something that has caused my daughter to be upset. It really hurts for my practices for raising my daughter to not be respected by her grandma. My husband feels the same as I do on this.

As a result of all this I have not spoken to my mom (nor has my daughter) in over two weeks. I didn't fight with her I just stopped talking to her. I really haven't wanted to deal with it, and am at a loss for what to say. And doubt whether it would do any good. I am interested in hearing anyone's opinion on this or of similar problems they've had.

[RunsWithFoxes]

I am thankful that my parents didn't force-feed (forgive the pun) their religious beliefs to me as I was growing up. Sure, when I was a youngster we went to a Presbyterian church. After my Mom broke with Christianity and went Unitarian I went to either church, or none. Action invites reaction, and force-feeding beliefs of any kind on a child is likely to backfire spectacularly, especially when the kid hits adolescence.

If I were in your shoes, the next time I left my kid with Grandma I would get a verbal commitment from them both. It might be harder for Grandma to be deceptive after such a direct promise. Other than that, I would just leave it. You need to decide what battles are worth fighting. It seems to me that making sure that your kid is well-informed regarding diet is one; fighting Grandma is NOT one.

An interesting question is at what age a child should be permitted to make their own decision regarding diet. Perhaps it's first grade, where the kid will already be making an independent decision regarding lunch (unless s/he always packs one prepared by veggie mommy). I know next to nothing about child development/rearing, so I'm sure that other, more knowledgeable folks have more informed opinions.

Good luck - sorry that this happened. :wall:

[VegMom]

Well, I suppose that could be one perspective. But perhaps I didn't really make the situation clear in this. And I did leave out some other issues. It wouldn't be so much "force feeding" beliefs to a child as it would be, IMO, giving proper guidance. How would choosing a vegetarian diet for my child (who may I remind you is only 4 years) be anything other than part of parenting? Are we supposed to let them make all their own decisions from the moment they emerge from the womb? (And anyway, she did not make the choice to eat meat some one else forced it upon her!) Should kids just roam free without any rules or regulations? And I had spoken to my daughter about the importance of eating healthy and what meat is (where it comes from) to her age level - without getting graphic, of course. So it isn't like she doesn't have some understanding of this.

I'm probably not really coming off the way I mean to here.

The main issue is this: I was disrespected and lied to by my mother, who knew fully well how I felt about the issue. And my daughter was taught to do the same to her parents (my husband and I).... So she gets the idea that it is ok to lie. It wasn't the fault of my daughter it was the fault of my mother, and perhaps my own for trusting her. And now I have to wonder what other lies, secrets are there???
:(

[astro]

The main issue is this: I was disrespected and lied to by my mother, who knew fully well how I felt about the issue. And my daughter was taught to do the same to her parents (my husband and I).... So she gets the idea that it is ok to lie.:(

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell really. That was a totally wrong thing for your mother to do. She obviously disagrees with you raising your daughter on a veggie diet and this is the way she's going to let you know that she disapproves.

If I was in this situation, I'd be pretty P.O'd. I'd try not to argue with my mum or avoid speaking to her over this, but I definately wouldn't let my daughter stay over her house. And I'd tell my mum it's because she put herself into a position where she can't be trusted to respect my family's beliefs.

[thebelovedtree]

I wouldn't say anything about vegetarianism when you talk to your mother, ask her why she felt it was ok to teach a 4 year old to lie and keep secrets from her parents. When its phrased like that I'll bet she won't be very able to defend herself.

[nigel]

I don't even see this as a dietary issue. Your mother deliberately deceived you and felt that for some reason she was entitled to do so.

My sister and I have had similar problems with our mother, and have put it to her that we respect her wisdom and guidance, and want her to be a part of our childrens' lives, but that how we raise our children is our decision. I wish I could say that everything gets resolved with that, but we sometimes get a "my house, my rules" response. Regardless, I thinnk that directly addressing the issue is the only solution. Your final trump is that if she can't respect your wishes, you can always limit her to visiting your child under your supervision.

[Tesseract]

I think what your mother did is completely unacceptable. She clearly cannot be trusted to respect your wishes. That is undermining your parenting, harming your child's health, and showing a fundamental lack of respect. What else has she been teaching yoru daughter without your knowledge? :worried:

I don't have a child and have no plans to have children, but I know if I did, I would make it very clear from Day 1 that the grandparents are not allowed to feed my child meat, and I would make it equally clear that if I caught them disrespecting my wishes behind my back (and even worse in your case, teaching your child to lie to you) all visiting privileges would be revoked... probably not forever, but custodial trust very well might be revoked forever.

In other words, I totally agree with Astro.

[zoebird]

i think it's absolutely imperative that you talk to your mother and tell her many of the things here that you told us.

1. it underminds your relationship with your mother when she does things behind your back;

2. it underminds your daughter's emotional well being when she's told to lie to her parents, as if to keep a shameful secret about eating meat;

3. it harms your relationship with your daughter when you have to 'force her' to confess what she eats, and then you have to deal with the fact taht she's been lying to you at the encouragement of her grandmother;

4. it underminds your sense of authority as a parent and your own self notion in that role when your mother underminds your food and lifestyle choices for your daughter--you have a right to parent your daughter as you see fit, without your mother interfering.

you should definately tell your mother how you feel. I would also recommend that you inform her that you're going to restrict her visitation with your daughter to whatever you feel is necessary. If your daughter is close to her grandmother, i think it is important that they get to maintain a relationship, but that you are present when they are together or that they are together only during those times of the day when they would not be eating. If they would be (such as afternoon snack), then provide the snack for your daughter.

you have a lot of really valid concerns. i think they should be discussed.

[VegMom]

Thank you to all of you for your help and understanding. I definately do want to work this out with my mom, because well, she IS my MOM. And of course I want her to continue to have a relationship her grand-daughter in the future. But I feel that it is going to take a while for all that. My daughter as a result of all this refuses to talk to her grandma when she calls (obviously because I have) and says she's "never going to grandma's again." Even though I'm upset with my mom, I don't want my daughter to feel that way. I feel bad about it. And I tell her not to say "never". But I can understand why she is taking that stance. I'm sure she'll get over that eventually too, though.

Also the manner in which the truth came out was very hurtful. That bothered me too, telling my husband this "secret" and asking him not to tell me, his wife. I feel that we should have an open, honest relationship. My husband was put-off by that too, as if he wouldn't tell me whatever it may be. Although he went to my daughter first, to have it come from her...

It will be difficult to trust my mom after this, esp. since it was not just a one-time incident. She was fairly elaborate in some of the lies she told me, for example; saying that she had "veggie dogs" at the house because her husband was trying to eat healthier and wanted to try them. Then it turns out that was all made up.

I just don't know how to talk to her so that she can see my perspective. I'm afraid of her just writing the whole thing off, and thinking that I'm over-reacting. Being such an emotional issue makes it tough. And sometimes I feel that, to some degree, she still thinks of me as a child, no matter how old I am. You all had some very good suggestions and advice. I will try to make use of that when I talk to her. I do wonder though, should I talk to her on the phone or write a letter, or e-mail?

Sorry for venting so much, this has just really been driving me nuts. Sorry for being such a mess here... I hope this all at least makes a little sense.

[zoebird]

if you live close enough to see her, then i recommend talking face to face.

but before that, i do recommend getting all of your thoughts in order. writing it down, discussing it here, dstilling how you feel so that it's very clear is really important.

it is sometimes difficult for parents to realize that their children are adults capable of making their own, autonomous decisions. this may be something that needs to be discussed as well.

to help you on the path to distilling, i want to point out a few of the things that can open the conversation with your mother, things that are more important than what your mother allowed your daughter to eat.

first, it's important to let your mother know that her behavoir has hurt you. you felt betrayed and untrusted (that is, your judgement on how to raise your daughter wasn't valued, as demonstreated by your mother's actions), because your mother acively lied to you and strove to enlist other people--your daughter and your husband--to lie to you as well.

this issue has nothing to do with the food stuff--whether or not it was meat or sugar or whatever else. this issue has everything to do with the way that your mother percieves you--as a daughter and an adult and a mother--and the way that you percieve your mother, and how your mother was harming your relationships with those whom you are closest--your husband, your daughter, not to mention your relationship with her (your mother).

second, another problem is the issue of trust. you feel that you cannot trust your mother to care for your child in the way that you think your child should be, because your mother not only didn't listen to your perspective and dictates, but when she didn't do as you asked and expected her to, she didn't openly disagree, but rather took a devious, passive-aggressive method to demonstrate her lack of agreement--and perhaps lack of trust--in your ability to parent and nourish your child appropriately. Obviously, this is deeply hurtful as well.

notice that neither of these really focuses on the food at all. the food isn't really the issue. it's only what triggered the problem. And your daughter has sided with you--which is common actually--and has also taken on your anger towards her grandmother. She also picks up on your sense of betrayal and likely feels bad that she was a party to hurting you, unknowingly brought into it by a woman who should be a trustworthy authority--her grandmother. this is a very difficult situation for a little person to be put in--being told that it's ok to lie in some circumstances, as long as one of the authorities around you agrees that it's ok. This is a confusing lesson in trustworthiness--infact it breaks down any lesson in that direction. So in a sense, you have to 'reset' your daughter too, and rebuild that aspect of your rlationship with her in a way that demonstrates that she isn't reponsible forher grandmother's actions, she was unwittingly seduced into it because of the assymetry of her relationship to her grandmother. Poor girl's in a really confusing spot.

I think that is worth mentioning to your mother as well--and it also has nothing to do with food.

So, i think you can bring up these issues first, as they have nothing to do with food, and then lastly appproach the topic of food with your mother, explaining that if she is herself unwilling to provide appropriate food, then you will provide it when she is with her grandmother, and that you expect that your wishes will be met and that your mother will not behave in these hurtful, childish ways that not only hurt family dynamics but confuse your daughter (her granddaughter). I would also work out the appropriate times for visitations, and what not, as to what suits the needs of your family.

The more quickly this is dealt with, the more quickly everyone can move on. Two weeks is a long time already, and your daughter is likely feeling both confused, guilty, and porbably slightly punished by it--even if it's not your intent or actions toward her in any way. children often take on things that they don't necessarily have to (for example, as a child i took the blame on myself for my parents financial troubles, but of course i was not the cause, nor could i have impacted their financial situation in any positive way either). When you figure out fully how you feel, definately talk with your mother, and then bring your daughter into a conversation between the three of you, as she also needs to heal her relationship and air her fears, anxieties and anger toward this situation (toward ou and her grandmothre likely).

I wish you all the best. It certainly isn't an easy situation. I don't have kids, and i go through these sorts of things with my MIL quite frequently.

[VegMom]

I guess I've lost track of time lately. I think I often have trouble with confrontation... I know it is something that should be dealt with quickly, but... I don't know, this is tough...

What has happened this past week?

Well, my husband has talked to my mom somewhat on the phone. I think he basically let her know that I was aware of what she had been hiding. She tried to minimalize it like it was a one-time incident, and portraying it as an accident. Until my husband informed her that my daughter had told us of the on-going events. According to him she was pretty mute after that. She asked to talk to me but I had him say I was busy. A week ago, last Thurs. she called and asked my daughter (I gave the phone to her because my mom had been calling and leaving msgs for her) if she could come up "tomorrow" & stay the night. My daughter told her no. The next day (Fri) my mom stopped by our house, unfortunately it was not a good time (never is) to have a "serious discussion" with her about what had been going on. 1, I was unprepared. 2, my brother and his girlfriend (it was her birthday) were here . 3, I was getting ready to go out for her birthday. & 4, my mom never stays for more than 10 mins. - she is always in a hurry, on her way home.

I was a little aloof, though I did talk to her a little, just chit-chat, really. My daughter seemed very nervous, and shy as well. I should also mention that my mom brought her some little gifts too. (Nothing out of the ordinary) My daughter was very reluctant to accept them. Since that I night have stopped "dodging" my mom's phone calls. It has been akward, but I haven't discussed anything on the phone with her. I think she wants to just go on like nothing happened and everything is fine. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to show/tell her otherwise.:-/

She lives about an hour from us, and works a lot, is very busy, so it's almost impossible to arrange a time to sit down and talk with her face to face. About the only time I talk to her is be the phone (typically while she's driving home).

I am frustrated with myself for not "doing anything" to resolve this, or work on this.

I have to go now, but I want to talk more about this some time later.

Anymore thoughts?

[catgirl67]

I wouldn't say anything about vegetarianism when you talk to your mother, ask her why she felt it was ok to teach a 4 year old to lie and keep secrets from her parents. When its phrased like that I'll bet she won't be very able to defend herself.
Very well said. :kiss:

[granolacruncher]

I always worried about this happening with my children when they stayed with my mom. As others have said, you definitely need to talk. But, my other suggestion is this; when things are more straightened out and your daughter does stay with your mother again pack a cooler of food for her. That way your daughter knows what food she can have and you have an empty cooler at the end of the visit. (Unless your mom is going to lie again, then there are other issues that have to be dealt with.) Good luck, this is a tough one.

[missbelgium]

As the mom of a 4-year old I agree with all of the above and I would say instinctively that the worst aspect of this is that your mom (an authority figure for your child) has taught your child to lie to you. That is unforgivable !

I do not have to deal with these problems because my parents are veggie themselves (I was raised veggie) and so is my sister, and my inlaws are all deceased. I can imagine it happening at a friend's though, or at other relatives' houses. And I would be very pissed off concerning lies and trust. I totally agree with Zoebird when she says it's not so much the fact that your child ate some meat (it happened to mine, too, but she didn't realise it and it wasn't subterfuge, it just happened by accident), it's the whole attitude surrounding it and what it conveys to you, to your child and to everyone concerned...!

I would tackle this person-to-person myself and try to do it calmly. Maybe you can explain to your daughter that grandma was confused about the food issue and that you and grandma will work it out between you, so she won't worry or try to take a stand herself anymore ? Poor thing ! (imagining mine in this case, she'd be very confused !).

[missbelgium]

PS-- upon re-reading the whole thread and realising that your mom always seems to be busy and in a hurry, maybe that is at the root of the problem: she can't be bothered to think up veggie alternatives. In that case... and when the issue about lying and deceiving is resolved, yes, the cooler sounds like a good solution !

[VegMom]

Thanks again to everyone for all the advice and support. You know, even before the facts came out, I had worried about my daughter being given meat. I had considered the idea of packing her meals for her stay. (Also because I know there is very little in the way of healthy foods at my mom's house.) But I sort of had a feeling that it wouldn't make much of a difference, and I did try to give her the benefit of the doubt. I didn't want to believe that she really was lying (and having my daughter lie) to me.

And now that I do know, I think that it is going to be a long time before my daughter has anymore sleepovers at Grandma's house. And when (or if?) she finally does start staying there again, I probably will use the cooler. But of course, as everyone has already said, I still have to adress the trust and respect issue first. I don't really want to try to do that on the phone, and writting a letter probably wouldn't work either. But those seem to be my only options... Unless we can take a trip up to her house and talk to her there. But then I would feel like (or be afraid that she would feel like) I was attacking her in her own home. And I'm sure my husband wouldn't go for it at all either, he's pretty unhappy with her now, and it's a long trip (an hour or so drive).

This has been going on so long now. I'm sure that my mom thinks that everything is pretty much back to normal. Every time I answer the phone when she calls I feel so anxious and so frustrated. It's terrible having this in the back of my mind all the time, and wanting to say something, and then just going on with the casual conversation. I really need to talk to her to stop this from hanging over us. :sick:

Perhaps I will go and write a letter, just to get my thoughts in order; as zoebird said. Maybe I'll give it to her, or maybe use to to direct my conversation to her.