OK,

I can't belive I'm starting this thread, I'm sure it's been done to death, but there doesn't seem to have been that many on topic discussions about it recently so here goes.

I encounter so many men and women who truly believe that the other sex is completely different to them.

What I'd like to know is, how many of you really believe that our differences are so deelpy dividing?

And by differences, I mean non-social ones (i.e. purley male/female based). I'd consider myself to be very different from the average Victorian era female, but that's almost entirely social.

So social/cultural differences aside, are men that different to women?

And how do these big differences people percieve affect their relationships with males of all types (friends, family, lovers etc.)

Here's my take:

We're not all that different, we do have differences but these are in keeping with the natural variety of human beings. Males can be more inclined brainwise to certain things and females to others, but these differences are not the Great Divide some see.

I see these natural differences as being enhanced by the magnifying glass of our social/cultural environment, and our values which have been passed on from our parents, and other significant influences.


So, let the games begin!

I don't experience them as very different. I see more differences between individuals than between genders.

i don't think they are really that different. i think it's a lot about how boys and girls are socialized and what the cultural barriers and expectations are for the two genders. i know men who blow all the stereotypes of what men are "supposed to be" and women who blow those stereotypes as well...

I agree with you. I think most differences (aside from the obvious physical ones) can be largely explained by socialization. The thing is, it's difficult to separate socialization from biology when it starts from the day you're born. I don't quite understand why some people are so insistent on dividing the sexes. I think placing people into narrowly defined boxes limits their potential. I am a solid mix of "masculine" and "feminine" traits, as are most people.

>>he thing is, it's difficult to separate socialization from biology when it starts from the day you're born.>>

At this point, it's nigh impossible. I mean, I can say that I have a specific set of genetalia by virtue of my genetics, but I can't go much further than that.
...
Yeah, I find myself rather different from a lot of men and women.

ebola

Physically they look very different. No-one can argue with that.

Hormone-wise completely different.

There have been COUNTLESS scientific studies on the brain which shows that men and women's brains work differently.

I find it hard to believe that anyone still thinks that it's only a question of "being brought up differently".

Yes, men and women are different. And Vive la Différence!!! I would not want it any other way. We complement each other and it makes us stronger collectively.

>>Physically they look very different. >>

especially if we dress and cut our hair very differently.

>>Hormone-wise completely different.>>

No. Not completely. The same hormones are present, but in differing proportions.

>>There have been COUNTLESS scientific studies on the brain which shows that men and women's brains work differently.>>

And NONE of these studies have establish causation or teased out environmental influence.

ebola

I'm going to agree with ebola here. It seems to me everyone is different. With the knowledge we have now it is extremely hard to say whether differences are social or biological.

physically they look very different. No-one can argue with that.

There is a famous study that shows that children can only tell sex of their peers apart by the clothes they wear. Which helps shows that from day one we are trained to recognize women by long hair and dress and men by short hair and pants.

The study had pictures of children. If the child was undressed the children had a very hard time telling what sex the child was. Even with their genetalia exposed. After that they showed pictures of boys and girls. If the child (whether male or female) was dressed as a boy the child guessing would guess boy, and same for female.

The point is there is a clear societal influence on us to define our look into one gender from and early age, and then associate that look with just that gender.

I like to think that we really aren't that different. If there is a difference between me and "Sally" I believe that difference is most likely because we're different people, not because Sally has a vagina.

Yes, men and women are different. And Vive la Différence!!! I would not want it any other way. We complement each other and it makes us stronger collectively.

A "butch" woman and an "effeminate" man are quite different, yes. Vive la Différence!

Yes, there are mental/emotional/social differences between men and women the same way there are physical differences between men and women. I find it odd that some people can recognize the differences between the physical characteristics and body chemistry of men and women and still flatly deny that there could be any innate differences in the way that men and women think/feel/process information. It doesn't really make sense.

If there are really no biological, innate differences between men and women, what about this perfect experiment: give a baby boy a sex-change operation, raise him as a girl, and have everybody in his life treat him as such? It's been done. Botched circumcision, Bruce/Brenda...any of this ring a bell? Of course, the experiment was a terrible failure. Little "Brenda" staunchly believed "she" was a boy, rejected the trappings of girlhood, and was miserable until "she" eventually learned the truth and began to live a more authentic life as a male.

Among men, there are predictable behavioral traits that correlate with testosterone levels. Women's cognitive strengths and weaknesses fluctuate with their hormone levels during their menstrual cycles. Ask ANYONE who's taken hormones in preparation for a sex-change operation--those hormones change the way you think, your emotions, and your intellect. (There's a great This American Life episode about that, by the way--if you're interested, go to thisamericanlife.com and search for "testosterone.")

>>There have been COUNTLESS scientific studies on the brain which shows that men and women's brains work differently.>>

And NONE of these studies have establish causation or teased out environmental influence.

That's incorrect. There is a great deal of solid scientific information on how androgens and estrogens permanently affect the structure and function of a fetus' developing brain, and again affect the developing brain during puberty.

I think people often confuse things, and equate the acknowledgement of innate sex differences with the endorsement of stereotypes and treating people according to their sex rather than their individual traits. But that's not the case at all. I love this quote from Steven Pinker's book, The Blank Slate--"...just because sex differences are rooted in biology does not mean that one sex is superior, that the differences will emerge for all people in all circumstances, that discrimination against a person based on sex is justified, or that people should be coerced into doing things typical of their sex. But neither are these differences without consequences."

There are phisiological differences of course, but we generally don't perceive those differences in our dealing with ourselves or others. To say there are differences between males and females in a population is different from saying there are differences in males and females as we relate to them as people. From my own experience, I have seen more differences between individuals as individuals than as representatives of the "type" male or female. "Predictable behavioral traits" are exhibited by a population, but not predictably by individuals. See what I'm saying? You can't predict a person will behave a specific way simply because he/she is a man/woman.

What MollyGoat said.

OK,

I can't belive I'm starting this thread, I'm sure it's been done to death, but there doesn't seem to have been that many on topic discussions about it recently so here goes.

I encounter so many men and women who truly believe that the other sex is completely different to them.

What I'd like to know is, how many of you really believe that our differences are so deelpy dividing?

And by differences, I mean non-social ones (i.e. purley male/female based). I'd consider myself to be very different from the average Victorian era female, but that's almost entirely social.

So social/cultural differences aside, are men that different to women?

And how do these big differences people percieve affect their relationships with males of all types (friends, family, lovers etc.)

Here's my take:

We're not all that different, we do have differences but these are in keeping with the natural variety of human beings. Males can be more inclined brainwise to certain things and females to others, but these differences are not the Great Divide some see.

I see these natural differences as being enhanced by the magnifying glass of our social/cultural environment, and our values which have been passed on from our parents, and other significant influences.


So, let the games begin!
Yeah I don't know if we can talk about the difference between Man and Woman, because those kind of generalized abstractions don't exist.

Your avatar, however, is Different.

I've found that it really depends on the type of man or woman.

Some men and women are really similar in their thinking and you can easily start to believe that there's very little difference. And then there's other men and women you see, especially those that are in a relationship together, and they seem like they just wandered in from different planets. :)

I completely agree with Silverfire's opening msg.

"Physically they look very different. No-one can argue with that."

Believe me, I can argue with that. Humans simply do not have the degree of sexual dimorphism that some other mammals have. We also come in a range of normalcy, so that there are people on the female end of the male range, and people on the male end of the female range, who look almost exactly the same, except for their genitalia. Also, there are some people who are intersexed -- it is impossible to categorize them emphatically as being one sex or the other. The appearance of their genitalia is ambiguious. Is that a small penis or a large clitoris? An incompletely descended testicle or an ovary? A vulva or a cleft scrotum?. There are more of these people than most people seem to realize. Doctors in times past, and still very much today, used to convert most of these to females (it is easier to make a hole than to build a pole) -- which further emphasises the fact that it is culture and thought which molds an apparent difference, as opposed to a true differnce. Today there is some effort to do gene testing, to see if the person is more male or female according to their genes, rather than according to their external genitalia. If they seem to be genetically male, they may be able to have an attempt made to make their genitals more male, instead of automatically having the sex of female ascribed to them, as was done in the not so distant past. There also a slight present tendency to just leave them alone, if they don't have problems urinating and defecating, or to limit surgery to only that necessary to allow them to urinate and defecate comfortably. Not so long ago, doctors couldn't accept the idea of leaving them alone as much as possible, and insisted routinely on sex-assignment surgery.

A "butch" woman and an "effeminate" man are quite different, yes. Vive la Différence!


Agreed. A "butch" woman still bleeds one week a month. :brood:

"Never trust something that bleeds for five days and doesn't die" :p

Agreed. A "butch" woman still bleeds one week a month. :brood:

"Never trust something that bleeds for five days and doesn't die" :p
:lol:

Sure there are innate differences between the sexes. They may not be quite as visible as some of the societal expectations, but I don't buy into the idea that every general difference between males and females is a product of upbringing. No, "all men" will not necessarily exhibit Behavior A, and "all women" will not necessarily exhibit Behavior B, but some traits are much more common to find in men than in women, and vice versa. It's not a bad thing to have differences any more than it's bad to be a natural redhead instead of a natural brunette. Redheads generally have to be more careful to avoid being sunburned. Not an excuse for bigotry, certainly.

As interesting as the question is, I have to wonder how useful it is to ponder when there's no way to eliminate societal gender molding in the near future.

>>Yes, there are mental/emotional/social differences between men and women the same way there are physical differences between men and women. I find it odd that some people can recognize the differences between the physical characteristics and body chemistry of men and women and still flatly deny that there could be any innate differences in the way that men and women think/feel/process information. It doesn't really make sense.>>

ah...this is not actually my position.
Rather, on behavioral terms, we are not in a position to tease apart social and biological factors for the two exist only insofar as they are interrelated. We lack the experiments necessary to determine what is innate (or to draw out the nature of the interaction between the biological and social). On the other hand, given the cultural variation we see and given the dominant position that gender is innate, I think a good bit of skepticism towards purely genetic determination is necessary.

>>If there are really no biological, innate differences between men and women, what about this perfect experiment: give a baby boy a sex-change operation, raise him as a girl, and have everybody in his life treat him as such? It's been done. Botched circumcision, Bruce/Brenda...any of this ring a bell? Of course, the experiment was a terrible failure. Little "Brenda" staunchly believed "she" was a boy, rejected the trappings of girlhood, and was miserable until "she" eventually learned the truth and began to live a more authentic life as a male.>>

This is a good point. Biology matters. This experiment is hardly perfect, though. Current sex-change operations are hardly ideal.

>>Among men, there are predictable behavioral traits that correlate with testosterone levels.>>

There are also similar behavioral correlates with testosterone levels among women.

>>Women's cognitive strengths and weaknesses fluctuate with their hormone levels during their menstrual cycles. Ask ANYONE who's taken hormones in preparation for a sex-change operation--those hormones change the way you think, your emotions, and your intellect. (There's a great This American Life episode about that, by the way--if you're interested, go to thisamericanlife.com and search for "testosterone.")>>

good point.



>>>>There have been COUNTLESS scientific studies on the brain which shows that men and women's brains work differently.>>

And NONE of these studies have establish causation or teased out environmental influence.>>


That's incorrect. There is a great deal of solid scientific information on how androgens and estrogens permanently affect the structure and function of a fetus' developing brain, and again affect the developing brain during puberty.>>

Thanks for calling me out on my innaccuracy. On the other hand, the influence of fetal hormone exposure on behavior is more unclear. By the time there is discernable gendered behavior to observe, the human being is immersed in the social matrix, and social activity exerts an influence on hormones.


>>I think people often confuse things, and equate the acknowledgement of innate sex differences with the endorsement of stereotypes and treating people according to their sex rather than their individual traits. But that's not the case at all. I love this quote from Steven Pinker's book, The Blank Slate--"...just because sex differences are rooted in biology does not mean that one sex is superior, that the differences will emerge for all people in all circumstances, that discrimination against a person based on sex is justified, or that people should be coerced into doing things typical of their sex. But neither are these differences without consequences.">>

This is a good point, although I think we shouldn't downplay the effect of socialization on the construction of gender either.

ebola

I'm going to agree with ebola here. It seems to me everyone is different. With the knowledge we have now it is extremely hard to say whether differences are social or biological.



There is a famous study that shows that children can only tell sex of their peers apart by the clothes they wear. Which helps shows that from day one we are trained to recognize women by long hair and dress and men by short hair and pants.

The study had pictures of children. If the child was undressed the children had a very hard time telling what sex the child was. Even with their genetalia exposed. After that they showed pictures of boys and girls. If the child (whether male or female) was dressed as a boy the child guessing would guess boy, and same for female.

The point is there is a clear societal influence on us to define our look into one gender from and early age, and then associate that look with just that gender.

I like to think that we really aren't that different. If there is a difference between me and "Sally" I believe that difference is most likely because we're different people, not because Sally has a vagina.

All true. As a child I was a "tomboy." I dressed like a boy, had short hair and liked to do a lot of "boy activities." Children and adults who didn't know me usually assumed I was a boy. Even as an adult with considerable breasts and hips, when I've had short hair, young children sometimes ask if I'm a boy or girl.

Although there's nothing "butch" about me these days, I don't enjoy many stereotypical female activities (makeup, fashion, shopping, gossip) and I do enjoy some stereotypical male activities (lifting weights, playing baseball, scratching myself:D ). In other ways I'm sort of in between being stereotypically male and female (I'm quite logical, but also quite emotional), and in some ways I'm a stereotypical girl (can't fix anything, don't like to watch sports, better at liberal arts than sciences).

I think we all fall somewhere on a spectrum as far as how "feminine" or "masculine" we are (I use those terms archetypically rather than as in reference to genatalia). More women probably fall more on the extreme "feminine" side of the spectrum and more men probably fall more on the extreme "masculine" side, but there's a whole bunch of people who are somewhere closer to the middle, and plenty of men who fall on the feminine side and women who fall on the masculine side. There are also plenty of people who probably feel unconscious pressure to force themselves to be as much on the "correct" side as they can get. So it really is kind of hard to tell how different men and women really are.

gnome "Ask ANYONE who's taken hormones in preparation for a sex-change operation--those hormones change the way you think, your emotions, and your intellect."

Do you have any web links on the subject? I'm not having too much luck with finding it with google.

I think men and women ARE different creatures. And after going through pregnancy a couple of times, I think pg women are yet another creature. I'm sure I'll discover the same when I hit menopause. Teenagers? Yet another creature, with the male and female version. Hormones are powerful.

But I do not think the differences need to be divisive at all. DH and I often discuss how we complement each other in our marriage. I'm strong in some areas, DH is stronger in others. We have learned to respect and rely on each other rather than poke fun and compete with each other.

Ying, yang.

I guess I live in a different world.... *shrug*

Agreed. A "butch" woman still bleeds one week a month. :brood:



She may not. She may bleed a couple days every few months, or have only a few periods during her entire life. Not everyone is a stereotype.