I've been thinking about this for a while. Dont get me wrong, I love animals and I really appreciate what the Alf does.
I want to hear your opinions...
Do you think the Alf is actually doing the animals a favor when they raid places eg. a laboratory? They save the individual animal from suffering, but the lab will just get new ones to replace them. So in the long term it actually causes more animals to suffer, even though they have the animals best interest in mind.
If only all places closed after a raid, it would be so much more effective. Most places just go on with new animals. :-/

I thought Alf was a monster that ate kittens... :(

^^^ you beat me to it! Darn.

But for real, if not a fuzzy alien, what the heck is "alf?"

LOL sorry Revel.

Oh Oh! I found it! It is the Animal Liberation Front! *is proud of herself.*

I am all for liberation groups like ALF and SHAC, they save thousands of innocent animals from certain death.
Stories like this: http://www.shac.net/ARCHIVES/2006/Jan/11a.html bring a tear to my eye and restore some of my (ever decreasing) faith in humanity.

I'm happy for the beagles and everything, but now they are just going to get another 28 beagles to replace those! unless they raid the lab monthly :think:

It may be true that they will probably replace the animals but hopefully SHAC will keep at them and keep raiding forcing them to close eventually which, although may take a while, I think will be sooner than if SHAC just left them alone, it's worked at other places such as the Newchurch guinea pig farm.

Why attack companies who are only doing what is required of federal law? In order for a product to obtain FDA approval, the product must be tested on animal.

Why not focus your energy on changing these laws? Why resort to theft and vandalism.

I guess we don't have time for rational solutions.

As for the "operation" in Spain? Where are the photos of the deplorable conditions? Where are the pictures of the cramped cages, dead puppies? For half frozen they look mighty healthy.

Why attack companies who are only doing what is required of federal law? In order for a product to obtain FDA approval, the product must be tested on animal.

Animal testing is required by law? I've never heard of that - except for birth control pills.

Animal testing is required by law? I've never heard of that - except for birth control pills.

You should read more.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DI00006

Why attack companies who are only doing what is required of federal law? In order for a product to obtain FDA approval, the product must be tested on animal.

Why not focus your energy on changing these laws? Why resort to theft and vandalism.Some work to change laws, some try to directly influence the current situation illegally.

Unless we have only one approach to a problem, we can always ask "why not focus on this" or "why not focus on that". For example, there is the huge problem of overpopulation of companion animals. Obviously, we should encourage spay/neuter and campaign against pet stores, but we should also help the animals currently in need of adoption by giving more resources to shelters. Which should be "focused on"?

Only pharmaceuticals are required to be tested on animals, other products are not.

Some work to change laws, some try to directly influence the current situation illegally.

Unless we have only one approach to a problem, we can always ask "why not focus on this" or "why not focus on that". For example, there is the huge problem of overpopulation of companion animals. Obviously, we should encourage spay/neuter and campaign against pet stores, but we should also help the animals currently in need of adoption by giving more resources to shelters. Which should be "focused on"?

So, burning down labs doing government required work is comparable to donating funds to an adoption agency or Spay and neuter program?

These fools are only making the real work harder.

Only pharmaceuticals are required to be tested on animals, other products are not.

FDA approval requires animal testing, regardless of the product as far as I know. If the product is not approved by the FDA, then I don't know.

"Food and Drug Administration (FDA). The FDA is responsible for administering statutes regulating human and animal food and drugs, medical devices, biological products, cosmetics, color additives and radiological products. The FDA requires that laboratory animal tests be conducted for prescription and over-the-counter drugs before these products can be tested in humans."

http://www.ncabr.org/biomed/FAQ_animal/faq_animal_15.html

I haven't looked into non-medical products. Thanks.

Why attack companies who are only doing what is required of federal law? In order for a product to obtain FDA approval, the product must be tested on animal.

Why not focus your energy on changing these laws? Why resort to theft and vandalism.

I guess we don't have time for rational solutions.

As for the "operation" in Spain? Where are the photos of the deplorable conditions? Where are the pictures of the cramped cages, dead puppies? For half frozen they look mighty healthy.

Well we don't really have time for "rational" solutions, while we're trying to change laws millions of animals are being killed. Places like ALF are working on trying to change the laws but they're also doing things more direct at the same time.

I don't think you can "steal" a living, sentient being, it's more like kidnapping, but when it's to save their lives I think it's alright.

Also, does it really matter how healthy the pups look? they were going to be killed, that tends to make how healthy they are rather redundant.

Well we don't really have time for "rational" solutions, while we're trying to change laws millions of animals are being killed. Places like ALF are working on trying to change the laws but they're also doing things more direct at the same time.

And they will keep being killed. Unless they are fire-bombing law offices, the ALF are not trying to change laws.

I don't think you can "steal" a living, sentient being, it's more like kidnapping, but when it's to save their lives I think it's alright.

Also, does it really matter how healthy the pups look? they were going to be killed, that tends to make how healthy they are rather redundant.

As I said, where are the pics of the awful conditions?

Wow, I didn't know it was required. So vegans don't take medicine or pills of any kind either? What do you know when you are really sick?

Wow, I didn't know it was required. So vegans don't take medicine or pills of any kind either? What do you know when you are really sick?

Get better or die? :D Usually they overlook that fact.

Seriously?
:sick: And I was so proud of being vegan...
..now I'm kind of scared about it, lol


Wait, did you mean "they overlook that fact" as in they overlook the animal testing? (mind you I don't take over-the-counter meds anyways because they're crap)

Seriously?
:sick: And I was so proud of being vegan...
..now I'm kind of scared about it, lol


Wait, did you mean "they overlook that fact" as in they overlook the animal testing? (mind you I don't take over-the-counter meds anyways because they're crap)

Call me crazy, but when I choose to change how I live my life, I do a little research on it. If someone wants to be truly vegan, they should forego all western medicine. Otherwise they're nothing but a hypocrite.

I hear alot that, since it cannot be helped (all medicine is animal tested), it's OK. It's just a lame excuse.

Wow, I didn't know it was required. So vegans don't take medicine or pills of any kind either? What do you know when you are really sick?

Real vegans don't eat either. Probably all of the produce you buy came from fields that were tilled under afterwards killing all kinds of field mice and other small animals. And just think of how many animals are killed by all those transport trucks -- big animals and all those insects too. And even if you find some lettuce in the backyard are you sure to get off every last aphid?

Real vegans don't wear clothes. Again, clothes have to be transported. The chemicals from synthetic fabrics aren't very friendly for the environment -- that will ultimately kill more animals. And the cotton, unless it's organic, is sprayed with chemicals -- killing more insects and other animal life.

No, if you want to be vegan you can't live. Quit breathing. Or take the approach that most vegans do -- live as harmlessly as possible and just try your best. Don't worry about people who want to defend large scale violence by pointing out every little way you kill.

I like this website:

http://www.dlshq.org/teachings/ahimsa.htm

It says:

Ahimsa or non-injury, of course, implies non-killing. But, non-injury is not merely non-killing. In its comprehensive meaning, Ahimsa or non-injury means entire abstinence from causing any pain or harm whatsoever to any living creature, either by thought, word, or deed. Non-injury requires a harmless mind, mouth, and hand.

Ahimsa is not mere negative non-injury. It is positive, cosmic love. It is the development of a mental attitude in which hatred is replaced by love. Ahimsa is true sacrifice. Ahimsa is forgiveness. Ahimsa is Sakti (power). Ahimsa is true strength.

and

Absolute Ahimsa is impossible. It is not possible to the most conscientious Sannyasin or monk. To practice that, you must avoid killing countless creatures while walking, sitting, eating, breathing, sleeping and drinking. You cannot find a single non-injurer in the world. You have to destroy life in order to live. It is physically impossible for you to obey the law of non-destruction of life, because the phagocytes of your blood also are destroying millions of dangerous intrusive spirilla, bacteria and germs.

According to one school of thought, if by the murder of a dacoit many lives are saved, it is not considered as Himsa. Ahimsa and Himsa are relative terms. Some say that one can defend oneself with instruments and use a little violence also when one is in danger; this is not considered to be Himsa. Westerners generally destroy their dear horses and dogs when they are in acute agony and when there is no way of relieving their sufferings. They wish that the soul should be immediately freed from the physical body. Motive is the chief factor that underlies everything.

but remember

One should not give leniency to the mind in this respect. If you are lenient, the mind will always take the best advantage of you and goad you to do acts of violence. Give a rogue an inch, he will take an ell: the mind at once adapts this policy, if you give a long rope for its movement.

Oh, I forgot: vegans can't live in most buildings -- animal glues in plywood and OSB material. And a lot of furniture has animal glue in it too. Some plastics contain gelatin. Look out, it's everywhere, lol.

We live in a world of violence and it's manifestations are all around us. If humanity wanted, it could produce medicine, housing, food, furniture etc etc with the principle of harmlessness in mind. But most of humanity is more concerned about the economy than peace. You can't blame yourself for what others do -- but at the same time you have to be careful that you don't take advantage of others' violence simply for your convenience. Just do your best to live out your vegan principles.

And there are medicines out there that have not been tested on animals but have been shown to be effective -- lots of herbal medicines are good. Diet is probably your best medicine but, here again, we see humanity's focus on economics interfere with diet -- GMO foods and chemicals sprayed on them. And again, all you can do is your best.