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Christopher Jon
01-05-06, 06:07 PM
A number of scientists and intellectuals answered this question. This is one animal rights related answer.

http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_print.html#rees

IRENE PEPPERBERG
Research Associate, Psychology, Harvard University; Author, The Alex Studies


The differences between humans and nonhumans are quantitative, not qualitative

I believe that the differences between humans and nonhumans are quantitative, not qualitative.

Why is this idea dangerous? It is hardly surprising, coming from someone who has spent her scientific career studying the abilities of (supposedly) small-brained nonhumans; moreover, the idea is not exactly new. It may be a bit controversial, given that many of my colleagues spend much of their time searching for the defining difference that separates humans and nonhumans (and they may be correct), and also given a current social and political climate that challenges evolution on what seems to be a daily basis. But why dangerous? Because, if we take this idea to its logical conclusion, it challenges almost every aspect of our lives — scientific and nonscientific alike.

Scientifically, the idea challenges the views of many researchers who continue to hypothesize about the next human-nonhuman 'great divide'…Interestingly, however, detailed observation and careful experimentation have repeatedly demonstrated that nonhumans often possess capacities once thought to separate them from humans. Humans, for example, are not the only tool-using species, nor the only tool-making species, nor the only species to act cooperatively.

So one has to wonder to what degree nonhumans share other capacities still thought to be exclusively human. And, of course, the critical words here are "to what degree" — do we count lack of a particular behavior a defining criterion, or do we accept the existence of less complex versions of that behavior as evidence for a continuum? If one wishes to argue that I'm just blurring the difference between "qualitative" and "quantitative", so be it…such blurring will not affect the dangerousness of my idea.

My idea is dangerous because it challenges scientists at a more basic level, that of how we perform research. Now, let me state clearly that I'm not against animal research — I wouldn't be alive today without it, and I work daily with captive animals that, although domestically bred (and that, by any standard, are provided with a fairly cushy existence), are still essentially wild creatures denied their freedom.

But if we believe in a continuum, then we must at least question our right to perform experiments on our fellow creatures; we need to think about how to limit animal experiments and testing to what is essential, and to insist on humane (note the term!) housing and treatment. And, importantly, we must accept the significant cost in time, effort, and money thereby incurred — increases that must come at the expense of something else in our society.

The idea, taken to its logical conclusion, is dangerous because it should also affect our choices as to the origins of the clothes we wear and the foods we eat. Again, I'm not campaigning against leather shoes and T-bone steaks; I find that I personally cannot remain healthy on a totally vegetarian diet and sheepskin boots definitely ease the rigors of a Massachusetts winter.

But if we believe in a continuum, we must at least question our right to use fellow creatures for our sustenance: We need to become aware of, for example, the conditions under which creatures destined for the slaughterhouse live their lives, and learn about and ameliorate the conditions in which their lives are ended. And, again, we must accept the costs involved in such decisions.

If we do not believe in a clear boundary between humans and nonhumans, if we do not accept a clear "them" versus "us", we need to rethink other aspects of our lives. Do we have the right to clear-cut forests in which our fellow creatures live? To pollute the air, soil and water that we share with them, solely for our own benefit? Where do we draw the line? Life may be much simpler if we do firmly draw a line, but is simplicity a valid rationale?

And, in case anyone wonders at my own personal view: I believe that humans are the ultimate generalists, creatures that may lack specific talents or physical adaptations that have been finely honed in other species, but whose additional brain power enables them — in an exquisite manner — to, for example, integrate information, improvise with what is present, and alter or adapt to a wide range of environments…but that this additional brain power is (and provides) a quantitative, not qualitative difference.

Sevenseas
01-05-06, 06:13 PM
Ah, so (rather conservative) animal welfare is a radical idea.

Irizary
01-05-06, 06:26 PM
Well she can't be expected to give up her sheepskin boots!

Although I wonder if, since she can't possibly survive on a vegetarian diet, she would be willing to eat dead humans, since the differences between humans and other animals are "quantitative and not qualitative."

meatless
01-05-06, 06:34 PM
Well she can't be expected to give up her sheepskin boots!

Although I wonder if, since she can't possibly survive on a vegetarian diet, she would be willing to eat dead humans, since the differences between humans and other animals are "quantitative and not qualitative."


:lol:

lijahbaby
01-05-06, 06:53 PM
Hmm. I've managed to do just fine in the Massachusetts winters without any sheepskin boots. It is really sad that this is considered radical or "dangerous".

angelene17
01-05-06, 09:06 PM
I worked down in ANTARCTICA for a few weeks once.. I wore bunny boots which were made entirely from rubber, not animal skin. I would do manual labor (offloading a cargo ship that resupplies the McMurdo research station) doing 12 hour shifts, being out in the cold the entire time, and I managed to walk away without any frostbite on my toes. So I'm sure people can survive a Massachusetts winter without any sheepskin boots. Actually, nothing that I wore to keep warm was made from any sort of animal product. Everyone in the group I went with were issued the same stuff except for leather gloves which were optional if you brought your own.

So in my opinion, I don't believe that not wearing animal skins to get warm during harsh winters is "dangerous." Same goes for eating a vegetarian diet. It's all about dietary knowledge. If you don't know what to eat to stay healthy, then of course, you won't survive. But there is a wealth of FREE information out there (libraries, internet, etc) that no one should be able to claim ignorance as an excuse for eating meat.

sorrowthepig
01-06-06, 01:56 AM
Here's my dangerous idea: for every instance of the word "right" used as a noun in the article, substitute "privilege" instead.

Tom
01-06-06, 02:12 PM
I suppose I'm glad that more people are seriously re-thinking their view of animals, but what is it going to take to persuade people to stop killing them for food? The essay quoted at the start of this thread mentioned vegetarianism only to dismiss it as not doable.

This is the reason I'm not bashful about mentioning that the smell of meat (and the taste of it, on the few occasions I've ingested a morsel of it since I went veg) still appeals to me. I've still gone without it for over 3 decades with no adverse physical effects. Just because someone is tempted to eat flesh does not necessarily mean that their body has a true physical need for it.

Ludi
01-06-06, 02:39 PM
My dangerous idea is that humans are no worse (or better) than any other animal such as sharks, rattlesnakes, beavers, or ants. It's the current dominant culture that's the problem.

I wonder if that author has tried (humanely raised) wool felt boots. Or any of the myriad synthetic boots for cold weather.

I'm also wondering how the author can say humans are generalists only; yes we are, but we're also specialists - specialists in symbolic communication and tool use. Sure other animals use tools, but not to our degree, just as other animals are fast, but not to the degree of the cheetah or peregrine falcon. Give humans their due, too. We're pretty cool, along with a lot of other darn cool animals.

xx22
01-13-06, 12:30 AM
Harvard receives more federal vivisection money than any other university..
over 300 million last year
Harvard has built underground labs to try to thwart activists
Harvard is heavily invested in slaughterhouses.. with the nation's
biggest college investment portfolio
Harvard provided such a cold environment to the prion research
of Stanley Prusiner that he left for California
Harvard has hidden its primates in Southborough far from the main campus

There are several universities which are IMHO trying to straddle
the fence.. with 'bioethicists'
etc

Princeton.. abuses primates while hiring Peter Singer
Rutgers... has a center for animal law while vivisecting
Oxford ... has an animal rights professor while vivisecting
etc.

epski
01-13-06, 09:42 PM
Ah, so (rather conservative) animal welfare is a radical idea.

It is to many, especially those that exploit animals for a living.