My sibling, who IS in my opinion making a very sketchy decision by moving in with her boyfriend but I've decided to leave that opinion to myself, told my father of her new roommate situation and his response was to warn her that if she's not careful she'll end up lonely and desperate--just like me! WTF!?

I AM coming up on 30 this year and I'm not married, but how does that make me a lonely desperate loser to be held-up as a "watch out or this will happen to you" type symbol? I've got a decent job, friends, am back in school, and active in the community. But, of course I don't go to church and I'm single and apparently that's a loser if ever my father saw one.

Is there anything I can do to show my worth to my father? It makes me so angry that he doesn't think I'm okay just the way I am, but since he doesn't I want to try and get him to see I'm an okay person. At least now that I'm single and not dating anyone presently he's stopped referring to me as a whore (which he used to in front of my brothers and sisters). CAN you create healthy relationships out of situations like this? Back when I was Miss Churchy he and I got along very well, but ever since I left home (10 years ago) he's been rather cruel.

I just wish I had a happy relationship w/out feeling like I need to lie to my father.

The way some see it, you can't be moral, without being "churchy" :(
Calling your own daughter a whore. That's nice.

My best friend has a similar relationship to her father and she's learned the hard way that she can't do anything "good enough" to please her father.

We can't choose our family, but we can choose not to let their negativity define who we are.

Have you talked to a counselor about how to manage your relationship with your dad?

Unless you are at their (parents) door every month begging for some money to tide you over or pay some bills......(which I doubt is the case) It sounds like you are a successful, happy and well-adjusted person. I rarely have to deal with that side of the spectrum. I'm not sure how to convince someone except being the successful, happy and active person that you are. Is your work (writing) published? Maybe seeing the spoils of your hard work would help. I'm not sure.

But, of course I don't go to church and I'm single and apparently that's a loser if ever my father saw one.

this is largely a cultural thing. certainly, there is nothing wrong with being 30 or 40 or 50 and single/never married and not going to church. singlehood is a perfectly valuable way of life, and wonderful for most people.

unfortunately, many people use their culture as their objective touchstone for their internal feelings. So, he can point to the cultural notion that women 'should be married' by a certain time, and then hold up people who don't fit that cultural idea as 'failures' because they haven't met that particular cultural standard.

this is largely about your dad's thinking than it is about you.

Is there anything I can do to show my worth to my father?

not likely. First, you'd have to change his entire perception of acceptable social norms. Then, you'd have to demonstrate how you fit the broadened social norms (acceptability of singlehood). That's a lot of work, and honestly most of it is on 'his part' and not on 'yours.'

But, there is something that you can do. You can tell him that his idea and statement hurt you. YOu can tell him how you love your life and you feel that it is valuable and fun and wonderful and all of that WITHOUT marriage/relationship. You can tell him how when he makes statements like he did, that you feel devalued, less accepted, and so on.

You can express how this made you feel to him, and that may help change his perceptions. And, if it doesn't, at least you now have all of his cards on the table in this regard, so you can choose how you want to respond to his opinion.

CAN you create healthy relationships out of situations like this?

I don't know. ask him why he's changed his behavoir toward you, and why he feels this way or that. And, tell him how you feel about it.

if he doesn't give rational explainations or doesn't give any explainations, or if his ideas and opinions don't change, then you have to consider what sort of relationship you want to have with your father--even if it is something more 'passing' or something less intimate than you really want. And, you may even express to him that if he isn't willing to at least accept you (doens't mean he has to like what you do), then it will seriously strain your relationship with him or completely end it. And, i would ask him if that's the sort of result he's looking for from his behavoir.

My personal opinion is that I hate trying to justify my life to other people. I figure if I have to try and actually convince someone to respect me, their respect probably isn't even worth having anyway. But this IS your father, so I agree with zoebird's suggestions. If all else fails, though....just remember that your opinion of yourself is the only opinion that really matters in the end.

What did you say when he called you a whore?

Wow. So if you're dating someone you're a whore, and if you're not you're lonely and desperate? That's seriously messed up. I've got to agree with zoebird- it sounds like it's more about him than you. Maybe rather than looking for ways to please him, you might be better served by looking for ways to keep this relationship from becoming a festering wound in your life.

ask him why he's changed his behavoir toward you, and why he feels this way or that. And, tell him how you feel about it.



I recently (a month ago) tried to speak w/my mother about HER perceptions of me. She told me that I used to be the perfect daughter, obedient and godly---before I went to college. Then she became very quiet and told me she would always keep praying for me. And that was about it. My parents are more of the "you KNOW what you did and you KNOW why you should feel guilty" type parents than the explain-themselves type.

My mother told me once that she approved more of the people who lied and tried to hide their bad deeds than those who openly admitted them and stood unabashed in front of society----she feels that if you're doing evil, you should at least admit to yourself that it's evil and try to hide it rather than deny it's evil and stand proudly. So maybe that's it w/my dad--I'm NOT ashamed of my life, so they find me disgusting.

Anyway, I think you're right, that talking about how I feel is the only response to this. Either my father will care or he won't. I just HATE that he is so stuck on this certain 'perfect' lifestyle, and that any deviation from it is of Satan.

Oh, and the first time my father called me a whore my youngest brother tried to verbally defend me. My dad was so angry that he choked him for a second (I think he was 16?) before letting go (my dad has some anger management issues directly related to anyone questioning his intelligence/power). The last time was when my father was grounding my youngest sister (this same sister who's now moving in w/her bf); she'd gone for a walk w/out telling my Dad (I think she was 17) and he raged that perhaps she'd been out walking the streets like I do. (whatever, Dad. I mean, ridiculous, no?!). I've never spoken to my father about it directly; I'm scared to, I guess.

well, i think it's obvious why you're scared to. i mean, he could be violent with you. and then you'd have to decide what you want to do about that.

it seems to me that if you say 'this is how i feel, this is how i want to live' then that will help. it certainly would assert your autonomy. but, i wouldn't expect a positive (or necessarily a negative) reaction.

but, i do think that you should really bring out this point:

"If you want to have a relationship with me, then you'll have to have at least some basic respect for my choices. Calling me a whore and what not is not respecting these choices, even though you disagree with them. Your behavoir is truly something that is unacceptable, and not something that i want in my life. So, you get to decide--either i'm in your life or i'm not. If your behavoir continues in this way, then i'm not. And if it improves, then i am."

realize, you only have to 'put up with' what you're willing to.

Just don't ever forget that it's HIS perception of you based on HIS values.

I know my in-laws think my husband and I are terribly disappointing to them... what with our silly veg*nism, and decision to not have kids and pursue our careers and charitable goals instead. In their eyes, I'm sure we're absolute failures. How dare we not give them grandchildren!!

But we're living the life we want to live, and don't share their values so really, I don't give a damn what they think about us. We're doing what we believe is right and just, and it doesn't matter if we (or you) don't fit into their questionable ideas about what makes someone a success.

Wow. How incredibly unkind of your father. Maybe instead of focusing on what you can do to be admirable in his eyes, he should be thinking of ways to be more admirable in yours! Honestly, you will find that in life, there are just some people you will never be able to please. And it's generally not about you. It's about them. The best thing you can do is TRY not to let his bad behavior adversely affect you and your personal growth as a good human being.

Well you can show your self-worth to your father by telling him comments like that are unacceptable, and if he makes any of them in your presence leaving, or asking him to leave if he's over. Basically what Zoebird said. she hit the nail on the head. You may never ever have his approval. Sad but true. No rule against mean people becoming parents!

I think that the best thing that you can do is show him what a confident, independent, successful person you can be. Your parents seem to be the hypocritical church going type. You are supposed to live by their belief system, but they have no respect for your belief system. You can't live the way that your father wants you to, so there is no sense even trying. Show him that you are not ashamed of who you are and hopefuly he will start to respect you. Maybe you will open up his eyes someday.

Maybe you will open up his eyes someday.

That's my dream.

Thanks, all. I needed to get that out. You're all peaches!

Your father is physically and verbally abusive. I still stand by my suggestion that you talk to a counselor about how to deal with your relationship with him (or whether to choose to continue a relationship with him).

Alternatively, you can look into some books on how to deal with an abusive parent. There is no excuse for his behavior - you have the power to choose how you want to deal with his abuse. Good luck, veggiewriter. You're in a tough situation and I hope you get the real-life support that you need. :hug:

Your father is physically and verbally abusive.

Don't I know it. Pretty fabulous for a pastor, right? Now if I can only convince the REST of my family (mother and siblings) that they don't have to put up with it. I moved away from Portland, OR because I wanted to physically distance myself from them and they think that's just another of my 'crazy' things, moving away from the family. We just talk via phone now.

Thanks for the hugs, Amy. :)

moving away is quite possibly the hardest and yet most "independent" things you could have done - bravo!

I wouldn't doubt that your dad resents you for doing so and that that resentment is a large part of why he is saying the things he is. He can't have physical power over you, so he is resorting to emotional power & manipulation.

You're taking care of #1, and I applaud you for that. :)

Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if the role of pastor provides a couple of things to your father that he finds rewarding -- justification for his behavior ("i'm a man of the lord so i can do what I want and be righteous") as well as a position of leadership (power, manipulation, control).

It's sort of contradictory on the surface, but I grew up around several "pastor's kids" and their dads seemed to be THE MOST controlling adults I knew. Not that all pastors are controlling, of course, but I do wonder about the connection between a role of religious leadership and controlling personalities... :think:

Is there anything I can do to show my worth to my father?
Probably not. But why would you want to bother? This man has a poor understanding of of which kind human traits are valuable, and which are not. The only way you could show your worth to him is to do something that, to you, is wrong.

It makes me so angry that he doesn't think I'm okay just the way I am, but since he doesn't I want to try and get him to see I'm an okay person.

It would seem to be a waste of your time to try. In fact, that would be an unworthy thing to do. It would be an indication, to a normal person, with good values, that you are not OK.

Try to dump your anger. Don't get angry, get even. Anyone that calls his daughter a whore in front of her siblings, deserves to be beaten over the head with a baseball bat, in a calm fashion.

Calling your own daughter a whore. That's nice.

Hah! Yeah. This 'Man of God' sure sounds like the picture-perfect symbol of morality! :stinkeye:
He needs a slap in the face.

zoebird "but, i do think that you should really bring out this point"

zoebird, there is no point in trying to reason or explain things to people, whose response is to someone who disagrees with him is to choke them. I can't believe you even think there is any point in trying to have a verbal conversation with this man. The kind of "conversation" that this man understands is "might makes right." And the only way to communicate your view to such people is overpower them with the same kind of communication that they use: force and violence. You sound like Gene Wilder's character in "Stir Crazy."

It is best to avoid such people entirely. If they can't be avoided you need to duck them as best you can, and if that is unavoidable, you have to direct their violence back at them. The next time he calls you a whore, and chokes your brother if he disagrees, you say "no" and immediately do something that hurts and frightens him -- same way you train a dog.

I speak from experience, not just from book-learning.

Bullies are usually lazy-ass morons who are extremely susceptible to counter-bullying. Even if you are smaller than them, if they perceive that bullying you is going to start becoming hard work, they usually not only stop bullying you, but let you bully them. They reverse roles easily.

There are plenty of worse things than sleeping around, and treating your children that badly is one of them IMO.

(That statement presumes you actually sleep around, which may or may not be the case. I'm guessing from your father's behavior, the word "whore" is his response to pretty much anything he deems not appropriately ladylike.)

I can't believe you even think there is any point in trying to have a verbal conversation with this man...It is best to avoid such people entirely.

Well, he's my dad, you know? I just wish he'd like me. And the rest of the family is in his pocket (grandparents, cousins, siblings, mother, etc.) so if I end it totally with him or am too defiant I'll likely be shut out by my entire extended family. And that's not something I want.

I'm out of physical danger (and really, he hasn't touched me since my last memorable spanking w/the belt at age 11) so I'm just trying to figure out how best to deal w/his remarks about my character (and no, Tess, I'm not a nympho or anything, just have had more than one relationship, which = slut in many of my family members's minds--my father is the only one I've heard verbalize it so cruelly, though) and keep the peace with the fam.

<sigh> My sister hasn't talked to them since they gave her that 'warning' about turning out exactly like me, so at least they may eventually realize that by telling us ridiculous things like that, they're losing us, one by one. Or maybe the 'prediction' will come true. Horrors! I'm just tired of it all.

zoebird "but, i do think that you should really bring out this point"

zoebird, there is no point in trying to reason or explain things to people, whose response is to someone who disagrees with him is to choke them. I can't believe you even think there is any point in trying to have a verbal conversation with this man. The kind of "conversation" that this man understands is "might makes right." And the only way to communicate your view to such people is overpower them with the same kind of communication that they use: force and violence. You sound like Gene Wilder's character in "Stir Crazy."

It is best to avoid such people entirely. If they can't be avoided you need to duck them as best you can, and if that is unavoidable, you have to direct their violence back at them. The next time he calls you a whore, and chokes your brother if he disagrees, you say "no" and immediately do something that hurts and frightens him -- same way you train a dog.

I speak from experience, not just from book-learning.

Bullies are usually lazy-ass morons who are extremely susceptible to counter-bullying. Even if you are smaller than them, if they perceive that bullying you is going to start becoming hard work, they usually not only stop bullying you, but let you bully them. They reverse roles easily.

I agree. I enjoyed this book about fighting bullies http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312320221/qid=1137010741/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-3162634-3345608?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

I also recommend The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner.

I understand no one wants to shut out their own family. But I think demanding respect for yourself is more important. The sooner you stop wishing to change your father so that he likes or respects you, the sooner you will be free. He will probably never change. He will probably never respect you, and the rest of your family will probably remain wimpy enablers of his behavior, and so will you if you don't put a stop to it. The best way to stop is probably to stop participating. If he acts disrespectful, leave. Even if your mom or whoever wants you to stay. She has to decide how to deal with his behavior herself. Read the Dance of Anger, it deals with exactly these kinds of problems.

Do you want respect, or do you want to be around your dad? You probably can't have both. It's very, very sad, but it's true. I respect the blood of the family, too. But not more than I respect myself.