I'm having a HUGE debate with my mom here.
And it started with the anti-fur protest in Holland in November I think.
And then it went to the meat industry. And then to the milk.
And she used the 'cows live a happy live before they're killed' argument.
And 'if we'd kill them there'd be too many of them'.
To which I replied: well, 1) it's our fault there's too many of them..and 2) who are we to judge which species are allowed to be shot to make room for others?

And then she said that in the poorest parts of Africa people don't really have a choice to be vegan or vegetarian etc. (<--which I guess I understand) They're happy with what they can get and that holland makes powdered milk for those countries so they're HELPING those 3d world countries by getting them milk etc. And I jokingly said: just send them packs of soymilk:P lol
And she was all: do you think that holland grows soybeans etc? NO it's all imported raahhh.

but yeah...what do I say to that?
I have no idea if Holland does stuff like that..I always thought New Zealand did hehe.

1. do your research
2. tell ler why she's wrong

I don't know why people always assume that most food in the EU is imported. Europe has TONS of agriculture. So find out what the Netherlands produce and tell her about it (btw they even export produce to other EU countries). WHile you're at it, check out http://www.organic-europe.net/country_reports/netherlands/default.asp for some info so you can also tell her that the soy you drink is healthy and not that gene-manipulated crap.

Then, if you're feeling feisty, ask her what the next argument is that she's planning on having with you because it sounds like she's just moving from one thing to the next solely for the purpose of criticizing your choice of going veg. Or get her some literature to calm her fears.

Actually, the powdered milk issue is very controversial. As a side note though, powdered soymilk is available (and at a cheaper cost than powdered cow's milk). Unfortunately, it's Dupont that's making it (Dupont being the world's largest chemical company, and whose motto seems to be "Screw the environment and the poor from other countries. We've got a profit to make!").

As for powdered cow's milk, it's often sold in African countries, not donated. Corporations (European or North American) get subsidies to do this, and the result is that imported powdered milk is cheaper than locally manufactured liquid milk. This ends up driving some African dairy farmers out of business (usually i'd be happy to see dairy farms go out of business but in this case, this is happening because another milk product is taking over... The cows lose either way).

Also, powdered milk requires water to reconstitute it. And if you want the milk to not make you sick, the water needs to be clean...something that's not readily available in many African countries. Adults have gotten sick, and babies too (babies which should have been breastfeeding to begin with). It's been reported that Nestle would send free samples of powdered milk to nursing mothers, and then when the freebies ran out, the mothers had to go buy more of it (because apparently once you wean a baby, the baby won't go back to breastmilk).

Anyways, all that to say that powdered milk isn't always a good thing. I suppose that if it's donated, and if there are no other options, it's better than nothing. However, i believe that there would be other ways to help poor african countries without making deals with corporate devils. Starting with irrigation and water purification would be a good start. A lot can grow if you've got a consistent supply of clean water.

Im trying to find a good link, but in my history class we talked about how soybeans are a good crop for poorer nations because they are easy to grow and used for alot of different things. They are alos cheaper then animal products and generally are very high in portiens etc. Ill put the link up when i find one thats not obscenely long.

Another thing I forgot: point out to her that the majority of Africans can't even enjoy milk because they are lactose intolerant. So even if it tastes good, many people have nothing to show for it except gas and the runs. Certainly not something that seems beneficial to their health, orat least something we should find a better alternative for.

For more facts on milk and dairy in general, have a look at the www.pcrm.org (physician's committe for responsible medicine). They have lots of information.

I have a better suggestion. Accept that your mother believes differently from you and refrain from arguing with her. From everything you've said, no matter how much research you do, she believes what she believes and that's that. Arguments with family members over personal belief systems just cause a lot more heat than light.

Ps Why on earth is there a "ads by google" bar right above this window with ads for "Milk Powder Manufacturers" at www.alibaba.com and "Imeko dairy products bv" at www.imeko.com ? seems kinda strange, especially since the ads on top of the page are at least matched somewhat to the content of the forum.

I have a better suggestion. Accept that your mother believes differently from you and refrain from arguing with her. From everything you've said, no matter how much research you do, she believes what she believes and that's that. Arguments with family members over personal belief systems just cause a lot more heat than light.

Such a good suggestion!

I like shutting 'em down with books. Lots of people look at a thick, scholarly tome and decide to give you a bit more leeway instead of rolling up their sleeves and doing that kind of reading... I mean, I'd prefer they read, but if I can get 'em to realize I've done my research, they start asking legit questions instead of trying to pick apart my philosophy.

People in Africa also don't get to have nice cars and new TVs but that doesn't stop Westerners from being consumptionist pigs, so why should it stop them from being vegetarians or vegans?

I'm having a HUGE debate with my mom here.
And it started with the anti-fur protest in Holland in November I think.
And then it went to the meat industry. And then to the milk.
And she used the 'cows live a happy live before they're killed' argument.
And 'if we'd kill them there'd be too many of them'.
To which I replied: well, 1) it's our fault there's too many of them..and 2) who are we to judge which species are allowed to be shot to make room for others?
Factory farmed cows do not lead live happy lives before they are slaughtered. Regardless of animal rights, there are other reasons to be veg*n such as for the environment and for health.
And then she said that in the poorest parts of Africa people don't really have a choice to be vegan or vegetarian etc. (<--which I guess I understand) They're happy with what they can get and that holland makes powdered milk for those countries so they're HELPING those 3d world countries by getting them milk etc.
Many very poor people are near veg*n not by choice. If you have very little money and you have a choice of 8 calories from corn or eight calories from chicken meat which are you going to take? If the primary source of calories for your family is a herd of 50 goats are you going to be eating meat for lunch and dinner everyday?
As for powdered cow's milk, it's often sold in African countries, not donated.
Indeed. And the poorest of the African poor live where there is no infastructure to get them things like powdered milk anyway. That's one reason why you can't just throw money at the famine problem and expect it to go away.
Also, powdered milk requires water to reconstitute it. And if you want the milk to not make you sick, the water needs to be clean...something that's not readily available in many African countries. Adults have gotten sick, and babies too (babies which should have been breastfeeding to begin with). It's been reported that Nestle would send free samples of powdered milk to nursing mothers, and then when the freebies ran out, the mothers had to go buy more of it (because apparently once you wean a baby, the baby won't go back to breastmilk).
I think what happened in Africa is what happened in the US in the 1950s. The milk companies, eager to sell their mostly unecessary product, advertize that their product is the most healthy and wonderful thing since spinach. Just look at all of the chemcial names in the ingredients list, yay! So African mothers were conned into thinking the powdered stuff was better than breast milk. Or, some women can't produce enough milk and had to buy it to supplement their milk.

After you stop nursing for a while your body assumes your infant is weaned or died and stops producing milk. Then the samples run out and you still have a hungry baby so you have to buy more milk formula. Either way its very bad for the babies because often the mothers don't know to (or don't have the means to) boil the water before they make the formula and/or if money is short they dilute the formula and the baby suffers under- and malnutrition. It is much better to make sure the mom gets enough to eat and breastfeeds her baby (but Nestle can't make a profit off that so they don't advertise that fact).
However, i believe that there would be other ways to help poor african countries without making deals with corporate devils. Starting with irrigation and water purification would be a good start. A lot can grow if you've got a consistent supply of clean water.
Very true. Handing out milk formula doesn't help Africa in the long term. Better to develope their infastructure and educational systems so they'll eventually be able to be self-sufficient.

I found a link about where Holland imports soybeans from (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Q_Whd3Dt0jcJ:www.bothends.org/strategic/soy16.pdf+holland+soy+imports&hl=en&client=opera).

60% comes from Brazil. Damnit. There goes the rain forest. I was wrong, European vegetarians are directly responsible for some loss of rain forest (not as much as European meat eaters, but still a bit).

32% comes from the US. Woo hoo! Its extremely unlikely rain forests were cut down for that. (US is a net soybean exporter, so its unlikely that American soy products are from Amazon rain forests!)

The remaining 8% mostly comes from South America.

But there is more to the story. Most of the Netherland's soy is exported as soy pellets. That doesn't seem to be human food. Where are those pellets going to? At least 80% goes to other EU members, presumably used as feed for meat and milk animals.

Looking at the notes, it appears that pellets are an important buy product of soy oil production. The soy oil is used as food, and the pellets are used as animal feed. Ugh. Buy margarine in the Netherlands, and you might have contributed to the destruction of the Amazon rainforest.

OTOH, according to this link (http://www.wervel.be/EN/dossiers/fm_200505/fm_200505_0301.htm), Brazilian soy is mostly grown in the highlands and not the Amazon basin. If I'm reading a map of Brazil right, it seems that this wouldn't be rainforest, but savanna. I'm not entirely sure about this though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Anyways, I digress. This whole post is a digression, but I've spent too much time on google to just erase it.

80% of Brazil's soy goes toward feeding animals.

OTOH, according to this link (http://www.wervel.be/EN/dossiers/fm_200505/fm_200505_0301.htm), Brazilian soy is mostly grown in the highlands and not the Amazon basin. If I'm reading a map of Brazil right, it seems that this wouldn't be rainforest, but savanna.

No silver lining here though. Some have predicted that, if current trends continue, Brazil's savannahs will disappear within 25 years due to deforestation (for agribusiness, including soybean production). The Brazilian savannahs are rich in plant and animal diversity (something like 5000 plant species and 1600 animal species) but they have received much less media coverage than the Amazon region.

It just seems to be a lose-lose situation.

Regardless, donated soy is better than cow milk. Like somebody said, a lot of Africans are lactose intolerant. Plus, cowmilk is not people food, it is cow food, and that is digusting.

And also, it is ALWAYS worthwhile to debate people when you have the facts. Shutting up to preserve the peace reminds me of 1930s Europe during Hitler's rise to power. DO something, don't just sit around and feel privately unhappy. That said, no need to argue, but always always debate and inform when you have the chance.

60% comes from Brazil. Damnit. There goes the rain forest. I was wrong, European vegetarians are directly responsible for some loss of rain forest (not as much as European meat eaters, but still a bit).

but if everyone ate a vegetarian diet, they wouldn't need as much soy. if in fact 80% of the soy grown in brazil is used to feed animals, then you could probably cut out that 60%...?

The majority of soy grown anywhere is used as animal feed. So? If there's no demand for animals then there's no demand for animal feed. Me eating soy is not contributing to over production of soy anymore than my eating carrots is somehow contributing to other animals being feed those. Or caged birds at the zoo.

I would find it interesting to explore small, organic producers in your local area. Maybe Austria is just different in that there is still a lot of local production and much of it is organic (can't find the exact figures but it's at least 10%).

But what is actually on offer in local stores? Holland being rather small and long, there's always borders near and lots of cross border trade. It's entirely possible that you have products being sold that are from Germany or Belgium which are made from soy beans that were produced within a couple of hundred kilometers.

This argument with your mom has nothing to do with whether or not Holland grows soybeans.
This is just another meat eater trying to justify the torture and slaughter of over 9 Billion animals per year. I get this all the time from friends/co-workers too. It really makes me sick. I try to be understandable, as I was once that way myself.
If you're mother is really interested in learning the realities of animal suffering, health consequences, environmental impact and human suffering, I would recommend 1) peaceable kingdom documentary www.tribeofheart.org shows the realities of meat 'production' 2) "The China Study" by Dr. T. Colin Campbell. He studied the negative health effects of dairy/meat consumption in China for over 3 decades...long story short, he grew up on a dairy farm and he and his entire family are now vegan. 3) This story http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0816_050816_cowpollution.html talks about the number air polluter in California, dairy cows. 4) Human Rights Watch recently declared the job of slaughter house worker the most dangerous job in America. Their report is here http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/usa0105/

Best of luck to you.

Wow!
Sorry for not replying any sooner but...
Thank you so much, all of you, for providing links and helping me out:)
I wasn't expecting so much replies though! It's going to take me some time to get through all of it.

I think I'm going to print it all out, read it/do some more research , and then just start highlighting stuff for my mom to read:D
I do think that part of her starting up arguments etc. like this *is* because she wants to *win* and justify her eating meat etc.
Though I really don't have a problem with her doing so, it'd still be nice to show her alternatives and well yeah, at least try to explain why I do/say certain things.

Hi ingenting, I went to a local health food store yesterday to buy some more stuff and had to think of this thread. Basically I started thinking about where the brands come from and this is not meant to advertise for the companies, but if you are interested in where the raw produce comes from and what their production processes are like, then try www.alpro.com. They are one of the largest producers of soy products in continental europe, definitely the market leader in this area. The brand they sell in health food stores is www.provamel.com which is produced in Belgium, France and the UK. The provamel products are all organic, but all of the alpro labels are guaranteed not to be gene-modified. This is pretty much the same for all other soy milk producers in this area (or soy yoghurt, cream, etc) . I prefer to buy more local brands when I can, but this should give you an overview of the largest company in the field. And although I don't know if alpro uses locally grown beans, we definitely have smaller local companies that use local soy beans too.