I read the thread in the activism area I believe about how bad it is to drive an SUV. Personally I do drive an SUV and I am proud of it. For one the gas milege can be lower, but I have friend who drive cars who get worse gas milege than me, it helps if you drive correctly and keep all the maintenance up. And secondly driving and SUV saved my life, literally. I was in an accident last year where a drunk driver hit me head on in one of those old pure steel caddys or plymoths or whatever. Luckily I was driving my SUV and not me previous car which was an eclipse. If I had been driving that ecslipse still, or some other car, I probably wouldn't be hear right now. The police and the guy that hauled my car away couldn't believe how well it stood up in the crash (even though it was technically totaled) and they said that they were thinking about getting that car now too. After that since my SUV was totalled I went out and bought another one. I realize there are disadvantages to driving an SUV, but I think that keeping me and my passengers safe outweighs all of them, at least for me.

CandyCane... there are a few of us who drive SUV's here and, some us, myself included, just laugh my ass off at the notion that I support terrorism because of what I drive. "oohhh, that extra drop of 2 or 3 mpg means we're all bad people because we enjoy the comforts and stylings (and safety) of a certain type of vehicle... how will we ever sleep?" rotflmao

It's your right as a citizen to buy whatever the heck you want if its legal. Buy it, drive it, and enjoy it.

http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2355&highlight=SUVs

Here's a thread on this very topic already....

I don't support terrorism, because I don't drive an SUV.

What? You want to know about my funny smelling cigarette? That doesn't support terrorism.

It does, says the drug czar? Methinks he needs to 'lighten up'.

But I digress, sorry.

yeah that is the thread that I was talking about, but it had to stop because it was war related and wasn't in the war room. I personally think that there are many things out there that one way or another support terroism, and that can't be stopped...only solution is to get rid of terrorists..which is what is trying to be done.....and thank you Robert, I am glad to know that there are others out there!!

<i>CandyCane... there are a few of us who drive SUV's here and, some us, myself included, just laugh my ass off at the notion that I support terrorism because of what I drive. "oohhh, that extra drop of 2 or 3 mpg means we're all bad people because we enjoy the comforts and stylings (and safety) of a certain type of vehicle... how will we ever sleep?" rotflmao</i>

You know, I did some comparisons on this through consumer reports and in EVERY SINGLE CASE the non-SUV alternative was cheaper, offered equivalent passenger room, safer, more stylish and less gas mileage. So certainly I don't have a lot of objections to a person who wishes to own a vanity vehicle, but at least have the good grace and honesty to be clear that it is a vanity vehicle.

Kirk... call it what you will.

Around here, I need a 4 wheel drive that is able to move / tow the stuff I need and can handle some rugged terrain and adverse conditions. Sure most 4x4's will do... BUT.. I also like comfort and lots of it. I see absolutely no reason to buy a cheaper, less comfortable vehicle if I don't have to. If that makes me a terrorist, so be it.

Oh, and let me just add this... I do not consider what I choose to drive as a "vanity" vehicle. Vanity Vehicle implies one buys a vehicle because they want to impress people. Me, I could not care even the slightest what people think... I buy what I like, what can do the job, and what gives me the greatest level of comfort.

I will concede that most SUV's have a higher rollover threshold than lower center-of-gravity vehicles. But I use my car usually for highway driving and whatnot.

I want to address this comment by veganinohio..

"Also, they believe 4WD will help them on streets in the winter which is another myth."

They do help. In the winter when I start slipping around I just switch my truck into 4 wheel drive and it's almost like I'm driving on dry pavement. And when I want to get up a hill in the winter... I switch into 4 wheel drive and I zip up with no problem at all.

Ahh yes.... the winter argument. I'd love to see an "alternative" pull a 1 ton trailer along a dirt road up a mountainside in the middle of winter around here. Yep, that would be practical.

Utter nonsense.

heh this argument always makes me laugh
some SUVs have good gas mileage and some cars have terrible gas mileage

mercedes S600 gets 19 highway miles to the gallon at Max!
while some toyota 4runners get 21 highway miles to the gallon

so its an argument that really cant be argued without specific comparisons

plus it really depends on how theyre driving it too
*some* people waste more gas then others

i miss driving an SUV
damn the 8th greenest car of 2001... damn it to hell!
Caroline

And you can be a responsible SUV driver, you know, meaning that you're careful about where you drive it (like more on the highway where all vehicles get better mileage) and that you use alternative transportation whenever available.

The bottom line is that ALL cars use gas and oil. If you want to use the SUV/terrorism arguement, you might as well be consistent and say that if you drive an automobile PERIOD, you're supporting terrorism.

There are some good uses for an SUV. If you tow or haul large loads on a regular basis an SUV is good. If you drive on unplowed roads in winter or unpaved roads year reound you need one. But for 90% of SUV owners they can get better safety, better performance, better comfort and better gas mileage from a non-SUV vehicle.

mercedes S600 gets 19 highway miles to the gallon at Max!
while some toyota 4runners get 21 highway miles to the gallon

Certainly it is possible to compare a 4 litre mid sizd SUV with a 5.5 litre car that weighs 50% more. If you are going to compare to the 4 runner you might as well compare it to other 4 litre cars such as the Passat 4motion which will give you (eyeballing it) more room, AWD and 25mpg highway. Even worse, the Dodge Caravan 3.8 litre seats 6 comfortably gets 20% better gas mileage and 4 star scores on safety tests.

passat has more room then a 4runner?!?!

4runner 27-36,000$:
Exterior Dimensions (in.)
Overall height, unloaded (2WD/4WD) 69.1/68.9
(71.6 with available roof rack) 71.6 71.6
Overall width 73.8 73.8 73.8
Overall length 189.0 189.0 189.0
Wheelbase 109.8 109.8 109.8
Track (front/rear) 62/62 62/62 62/62
Mileage Estimates (mpg city/ highway)9
2WD (V61; V8) 18/21; 16/20 18/21; 16/20 18/21; 16/20
4WD (V61; V8) 17/21; 15/19 17/21; 15/19 17/21; 15/19


passat 21-38,000 $:
GLS 2.8L V6 GLS 2.8L V6 4MOTION GLS 1.8T
Wheelbase 106.4 in 106.4 in 106.4 in
Front Track 59.6 in 59.6 in 59.6 in
Rear Track 59.6 in 59.6 in 59.6 in
Length 185.2 in 185.2 in 185.2 in
Width 68.7 in 68.7 in 68.7 in
Height 57.6 in 57.6 in 57.6 in
Ground Clearance 4.9 in 4.9 in 4.9 in
City mpg
Manual Transmission 20 N.A. 22
Automatic Transmission 20 19 21
Highway mpg
Manual Transmission 28 N.A. 31
Automatic Transmission 27 26 30

heh and the 4runner is damn sexy compared to the passat... and no im not prejudiced cause i used to drive one ;)

also mercedes s600 = Curb weight 4,610 lb/2,090 kg
4runner = Curb weight (lbs.) (2WD/4WD)
V61 models 4,025/4,280 4,065/4,320 4,035/4,290
V8 models 4,155/4,410 4,195/4,450 4,165/4,420
unfortunately mercedes didnt have gross weight specs on their site

Caroline

i was not comparing to the wagon
and i couldnt find any mention of a 4L passat anywhere on their site, btw
so i made the comparison to what they did have since you were the one who said passat, not me

also the 4runner is wider, longer, and taller... makes for a big difference

<Certainly if sex appeal is more important than economy, admit it and don't pull bull**** comparisons to cars with radically different characteristics or pretend that you are doing anyone a favor.>

and also i was kidding... some people need to grow a sence of humor

if you wanna find a better car for a comparison... go ahead
Caroline

Here in Phoenix, we have a lot of people whose masculinity is defined by the size of their truck or SUV. If you're going to drop big money on some monster machine, at least get some dirt on the '4x4 OFFROAD XTREME' decal on the back window.

I think many of them are for people who needed a minivan, but were too ashamed to actually drive one.

I certainly do not drive my SUV because of vanity reasons. If I was worried about that you would think that I would wash it every once in a while now wouldn't you:D I live in the moutains, and though it is california, we get a lot of bad whether, and trying to drive on dirt roads after it has just rained or snowed isn't exactly that fun. I will admit that this year the weather was kinda mild for some reason, but I still ended up having to use my 4 wheel drive a couple times. I have a 5.2 litre V8 SUV, my friend drives a 1.4 or 1.8 litre celica and i get better gas milege than her. So that is giving her car the benefit of the doubt and still.... I just think that the whole SUV thing is pretty stupid. There are people who drive them for vanity reasons, but that isn't the reason that most people drive them, such as me. I am only 18 so I don't have a family that I need to drive around, but I still drive my friends around becasue my car fits 7 while the rest of my friends cars fit 2, 4, or 5 people, so when we go out instead of taking a couple cars we take one. I am glad that there are plenty of people here who are on my side though!

i was not comparing to the wagon
and i couldnt find any mention of a 4L passat anywhere on their site, btw
so i made the comparison to what they did have since you were the one who said passat, not me

Try http://fueleconomy.gov

But from your own quoted measurements there is less than a foot difference in the TOTAL dimensions between the passat and the 2WD 4 Runner. (I'm being nice and not pointing out that we are stacking the weakest 4 Runner with the strongest Passat.) That and the 4L passat has AWD and the weakest 4Runner, the only one that comes even close in fuel economy is only RWD.

But come on here, the CARAVAN has better seating, better room, and better fuel economy than the most efficient 4Runner, and I didn't even spend much time looking. If you want to compare passenger size, Toyota claims 103cft for the 4Runner. A package that is easily beat by the Taurus (26 MPG), and the Saab 9-5 (28 MPG). With the exception of the need for raw power and 4 wheel drive, I have not found a single case where a non-SUV alternative outperforms by large margins.

Kirk: just so I understand... you are talking primarily under normal or routine driving conditions involving city and highway, correct? That is, you are not including various adverse terrains and adverse driving conditions I had mentioned earlier, reasons for which I require a solid 4x4 truck.

What I find interesting is that I, and many others, have bought 4x4 vehicles for years. No one really gave a ****. But once it became fashionable for a few celebrities to start parading around in their Land Rovers / Range Rovers and a couple running around in Hummers... now they're the talk of the town.

What I find interesting is that I, and many others, have bought 4x4 vehicles for years. No one really gave a ****. But once it became fashionable for a few celebrities to start parading around in their Land Rovers / Range Rovers and a couple running around in Hummers... now they're the talk of the town.

I think that is a large part of it. Suddenly the SUV transformed from being something that you only tolerated if you lived in the sticks to a suburban icon. I think they are useful but for pete's sake my parents were quite capable of driving the family of 4 comfortably to get sticky buns and even to the summit of Pike's Peak in an old Vega.

Kirk says, "my parents were quite capable of driving the family of 4 comfortably to get sticky buns and even to the summit of Pike's Peak in an old Vega."

Lol.. touche... :)

I do know people around here that actually spend beyond their means when it comes to vehicles simply as a social status statement. Their rigs never see a dirt road. Rarely see any kind of terrain that requires the abilities the vehicle is equipped with, if at all. I mean honestly... does one really need a winch on the front of their 4x4 to drive from their suburban house to work and back? :)

But, while I do find it humorous... I still see it as their choice to buy whatever vehicle they want.

I don't understand why this topic was moved. None of these comments seem to have anything at all to do with the current war in Iraq. Similarly, I used the word "bomb" in another thread and someone suggested that the comment should be made in the "War Room." Are we not allowed to make any mention of any war or weapons or violent foreign policy outside of the war room?

Obviously, there are many good reasons for owning a truck. However, the average SUV owner rarely qualifies. Interesting to me: Robert gives a utilitarian defense of his ownership followed by his **** it all comment: anyone should be able to own anything they want to. Where did that come from?

The posters who give good reasons for owning a truck are right. They do need the trucks ("need" is a strong word, but I'll give it to them). However, most SUV owners don't and they're being careless and wasteful. Why?

Also, for the average SUV owner who only drives on city streets, the 4 wheel drive IS dangerous. It has caused wrecks!

This post has nothing to do with the war, yet here it lies!

Originally posted by veganinohio
Obviously, there are many good reasons for owning a truck. However, the average SUV owner rarely qualifies. Interesting to me: Robert gives a utilitarian defense of his ownership followed by his **** it all comment: anyone should be able to own anything they want to. Where did that come from?

It came from the fact that SUV owners are being criticized (by a small minority) for owning a vehicle they choose to purchase. If it's legal, they can afford it, and they want to buy it... who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to tell someone they can only buy a certain type of vehicle. I've said it before and I will say it again, I buy the vehicle I want, one that has the comfort, styling and abilities I need/want. That is my right as a consumer.

The posters who give good reasons for owning a truck are right. They do need the trucks ("need" is a strong word, but I'll give it to them). However, most SUV owners don't and they're being careless and wasteful. Why?


I will concede that many probably do not "need" an SUV... but again, the question is who are you or anyone else to tell someone the type of vehicle they can or cannot purchase? Why are you not targetting the people who own Viper's, Ferrari's or other sports cars? Why are you not preaching to the Nascar and Top Fuel people, or the airline industry for that matter? Or how about the commercial transportation industry in general?

SUV's are manufactured and sold legally. As a citizen, you have the choice of buying what you want. If you choose to not buy an SUV for whatever your reasons are, that is your choice. I buy what I want based on my choice.

It came from the fact that SUV owners are being criticized (by a small minority) for owning a vehicle they choose to purchase. If it's legal, they can afford it, and they want to buy it... who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to tell someone they can only buy a certain type of vehicle. I've said it before and I will say it again, I buy the vehicle I want, one that has the comfort, styling and abilities I need/want. That is my right as a consumer.

I'm not convinced that it's such a small minority. But an important thing here is that right is not license. SUV drivers have a right to buy what they want to. On the other hands, folks who have every reason to believe that SUVs are making the streets less safe, are contributing to an over-dependence on foreign fossil fuel supplies, and making a disproportionate contribution to air pollution and global warming have every right to criticize suburban offroaders who gotta have an SUV because its sexier than a station-wagon or mini-van.

I will concede that many probably do not "need" an SUV... but again, the question is who are you or anyone else to tell someone the type of vehicle they can or cannot purchase? Why are you not targetting the people who own Viper's, Ferrari's or other sports cars?

Probably because sports cars are not sold as the "gotta have" family vehicle, are not currently more than %40 of the new vehicle market, nor are they used as a loophole around emission laws. Furthemore, sports cars do not pose a disproportionate threat to people who drive other vehicles, or pedestrians. But yes, I do think that people who spend extra money on the "styling" of a sports car are being a bit foolish.

Why are you not preaching to the Nascar and Top Fuel people, or the airline industry for that matter? Or how about the commercial transportation industry in general?

The former reveals just how lame your rationalizations are. The fuel consumed by auto-sports is a drop in the bucket compared to the ammounts burned by consumers driving guzzling vehicles. Commercial transports do an excellent job maximizing fuel efficiency but there is room to criticize even there. Airlines have pretty much replaced more efficient inter-urban rail and bus lines.

Hehehe, I find this entire "conversation / debate" amusing at best. Let's see... I have driven a 4x4 for umm... 15+ years. I buy a new one every few years like clockwork. Every new vehicle I have purchased has been more fuel efficient than the previous one. Every one has become smaller. "Progress" is being made.

The family vehicle I see marketed more than anything is the mini van because in many cases, it is more affordable than a full-sized SUV.

And the commercial transportation industry has definitely gotten better. My background is actually in that field. But let me tell you first hand... if you think heavy duty tractor trailers (fully loaded) are getting much better than 8 to 10 mpg on average, you'd be looking at the wrong data. I suppose it is better than than the 5 to 7 mpg they used to get at one point.

Edited to add this point:> Efficiency and safety begin with the driver.

Robert, do you feel that it is the right of a consumer to buy any item on the market regardless of possible consequences?

Is the justification that it is "legal" really worth anything? Who decides what is legal or not and on what basis. I don't think morality can be based on legality.

Governments have decided that many, many items are unsuitable for consumption for any number of reasons. Why couldn't SUVs be added to that list (and I'm not saying they should, I just don't think your argument has merit).

Driving a wasteful vehicle is irresponsible and immoral regardless of legality.