Is it true that if you are vegan you don't gain muscel?!?:flush:

muscle ? that's not true ... but you do have to make sure you get enough protein so that you do gain muscle :D

of course not. i've gained muscle as a vegan.

Well all of these physical fitness people think that you don't gain muscel without meat.

Do you have a source? That might help if people can read exactly what you're referring to.

Well all of these physical fitness people think that you don't gain muscel without meat.

Well, you cannot gain muscle without protein. Luckily, there are plenty of plant sources of protein. :)

This guy in attachment is one of the world leading vegan body builders, and getting bigger weekly I would think, hope this says it all :) To see his website, go to http://www.veganbodybuilding.com and one he visits but does not own I believe is this one here www.veganbodybuilding.org which is associated with www.veganfitness.net :)

Holy Crap! :O Is he 40? lol.

And i was looking into gyms for a membership, and the trainers at 24hour fitness said you don't gain muscle from soya and tofu products.

if you want good advice on gaining muscle, check out http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

I've heard of sumptuous as a word, but not with the xtra T in it. (stumpy?) :p

Another well known BBer site I forgot... is this...
http://ksteveh.tripod.com/vegetarianbodybuilder.html
For short you can access here too: www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com

And i was looking into gyms for a membership, and the trainers at 24hour fitness said you don't gain muscle from soya and tofu products.

Actually you probably can (I think there is protein in tofu) . . . but you don't need meat, or a gym, to build your muscles.

There's plenty of protein in soy, and tofu (which is made of soy). You don't gain muscle just by eating protein, though it is necessary.

a lot of fitness people know very little about nutrition and rely on supplementation (protien powders, etc). This is, imo, very unhealthy.

but, there is an issue in relationship to muscle gains and meat. while everyone is right that you do need protien in order to gain muscle, and there are lots of plant sources of protien, the issue of this sort of protien is that it comes with a great deal of carbs.

Consider that your diet is supposed to be 30% fat, 30% protien, and 40% carbs. Most of those carbs should be simple carbs, but because the vegetarian versions of protien (from whole foods) are always attached to either fat (nuts and seeds) or carbs (grains, beans, tofu), then it's too easy for the spectrum of macronutrients to change or be off balance. So, many people gain weight (fat and muscle) via a whole foods vegan diet, and don't maintain the leanness that they want. Or, they maintain the leanness that they want (more fruits and veggies than complex carbs which are more protien rich) and struggle with muscle gain.

meat is carb free, which means that a person who eats meat can actually forgo complex carbs (or greatly reduce them) in order to encourage leanness. They still meet their increased protien needs (with more efficiency than a vegetarian diet), as well as their fat needs (consuming predominently animal fats, which provides the necessary saturated fat which plays a huge role in cell repair--a part of muscle growth), and then can fulfill their other fat needs and their carbohydrate needs via good oils, veggies, and fruits. This not only promotes muscle growth, but it also promotes leanness.

The real problem that many fitness enthusiasts, regardless of diet, get caught in is the issue of supplements. supplements such as protien powders (soy protien isolate, for example) often do nto offer the protien nutrition that an individual truly needs. There is a great deal of evidence out there that even says that SPI is indigestable, and if not indigestable, inabsorbable (doesn't get absorbed into the system for biological use). So, an individual ends up taking in extra calories from the whole-foods sources that are housing the SPI in a shake form--often giving a sugar spike that leads to the bloated look that many 'bulking' lifters have.

now, it's perfectly natural to gain both fat and muscle when going through a bulking phase, but an individual can minimize the fat gain by making sure that the nutrient spectrum is appropriately adjusted. For many, eating a whole foods diet encourages this (as well as optimal health in general), and eating meat is the most efficient mechanism for recieving 'pure' protien and quality fats (if you're eatin gthe right kinds and cuts of meat), and then the rest of the caloric needs can be met through moderate grain (usually sprouted) consumption and with a great number of fruits and vegetables. basicly, most agree that a 'bulking' diet should consist of 30-40% calories from protien, 20-30% from fat, and 25-30% from simple carbohydrates and 10-15% from complex carbohydrates.

A vegan whole-foods diet consists of a great deal more carbohydrates, particularly complex carbohydrates, than an omnivorous diet because the carbohydrates are what carry the best protien sources. the diet is also very low in fat, in general, and to increase the fat, one must either use oils or consume fatty foods (nuts, seeds, and fatty fruit such as avocados). This also increases the carbohydrate count--particularly if you're using that whole food again. So, you end up with a diet that is difficult to manage for particular muscle gains.

many vegan body builders tend to have a few things in their favor. The first is genetics. There are people out there who can live on coffee and cigarettes, lift weights, and gain muscle mass. I know these people. The second factor is finding a methodology that works. There are many training methodologies out there--and not all of them work for every body type. Mesomorphs can pretty much do anything and gain muscle. They can even eat just dirt and gain muscle--they're that gifted genetically. Endomorphs need more cardio in order to encourage leanness. Ectomorphs need less cardio and even less weight training, more rest and optimal nutrition in order to gain muscle mass. If anything, it's this group that works the hardest.

Many vegan body builders rely on protien supplementation through shakes. I tend to think that those individuals who succeed in this are those individuals who are genetically blessed. It's not the most nutritional food, and in fact it may be entirely empty of nutrition--protien or otherwise--based on the absorption issues. This, then, may be a pure sugar drink, that would be a disaster for an ectomorph or an endomorph. Basicly, if the genetics are there, the nutrition is practically negligible.

So, the training is probably the most important factor, followed by the type of diet and how well it works for you--and what you need to do to make it work. Also, the question one has to ask is 'what would my body naturally look like with a healthy diet and moderate exercise?" and then "is that what i want my body to look like?" and if it isn't, then what does one have to do to get it to look as they want? sometimes, there's nothing one can do--for instance, you can't change the length of your femurs (thigh bones). But, sometimes there are specific routines that one can do to move toward the shapes that they want to emulate--but you have to find the routine that will work.

<-- hard gainer

Have yet to find the routine that works for me, though I've been trying different things.

All it takes is one or two weeks of no lifting and I can literally see my muscles getting smaller.

It's a bummer.

Interesting and informative overall Zoebird, thanks for your input. Don't mind me questioning the two points
below.... I pick out the 'negative' (or questionable) for a reason to see if perhaps you could be wrong. :)

Ectomorphs - (biological stature?) ....Anyway.....about this (body?)type that you say have to rest a lot and do less training, to gain muscle, how come you say they work the hardest Zoe? :stinkeye: doh, hehe. I'm confused on that one.

Saturated fat, (:p) - I eat VitaQuell vegan UNsaturated fat for cell repair Zoebird, maybe becoz vegans can cope with being thin and don't have greedy hunger pangs or the scale of gluttony for saturated like meat-chompers do.

And so alternatively eat VitaQuell (or similar) with non hydrogenated fat which is good for cell repair and I know coz it says on the tub :)

I could probably crack a walnut with my thighs...so no.

ive been a vegetarian (no dairy..eew.) for 4 and a half years now..and working out almost daily at a gym for 3 years...in my opinion i have good muscle and physical strength..comparable to that of an omni.
what others have said is right..you just need the protein and nutrients (possibly an amino acid supplement if you feel it is necessary)

toadstool: keep trying, you'll find something that works.

va-goth-uk:

to the first question, it's about how they have to 'work diligently to gain muscle' as opposed to necessarily 'working hard' in the sense that most people mean it in the fitness industry. generally, in the industry it means working out 2 hours a day with moderate to high intensity. But, this is not necessarily the case. Sometimes, volumn isn't necessary for there to still be 'hard work' involved. So, intensity is more important than volumn.

most 'hard gainer's' require a lot of rest in order to promote muscle repair that functions. but, when they work out, they do work out hard--focusing on interval training and large muscle groups. This high-intensity training is most efficient and gives them the best results.

but, if they overtrain, they get no results. If they have an improper diet, they get no results. if they train properly and have a diet that functions (usually, they need meat in order to gain muscle efficiently, as evidenced by many of them who have gone from omni to vegan and lost their muscle mass over time, and then adding in a food group, increased wth each food group until they were omnivores again; but, if it's a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet, it ought to work in theory at least), then they get results. Finding this balance is difficult--and therefore it's 'difficult' or 'takes hard work' for them to gain muscle mass.

as to the second issue, here is information on saturated fats, according to the work Fats that Kill, Fats that Heal by biochemist and fat expert Udo Erasmus:

Our body uses short-chain Saturated Fatty Acids (SaFAs) up to 12 carbons long mainly to provide energy. These are easy to digst and people suffering from liver and digestive ailments should include them in their diets. Butyric Acids (4:0) helps feed the friendly bacteria that keeps the colon healthy. Caprylic acids (8:0) is used to inhibit the growths of yeasts and candida in our intestines.(pp 29-30)

Our body metabolises medium chain SaFAs in the same way that it metabolises short chain SaFAs: to produce energy. It does not store them as fat. For this reason, they are used as medium chain triglycerides (MCTs) in the diets of people with digestive or liver problems.

As MCTs, medium chain SaFAs are popular with athletes who use them as a source of energy before workouts. (p29)

Our cells use long-chain SaFAs to build cell membranes (see chapter 10: Phospholipids and Membranes). The tendency of SaFAs to aggregate balances the tendency of unsaturated fatty acids to disperse (see Chapter 7, Liquid Oils and Unsaturated Fatty Acids). Both kinds of fatty acides are found in membranes.

By keeping unsaturated fatty acid chains physically separated from one another, SaFAs may prevent unsaturated fatty acids in membranes from taking part in unwanted chemical reactions with one another.

Long-chain SaFAs are solid at body temperature. They are insoluable in water and form crystal structures, sticking together (aggregating) to form droplets. Their tendency to aggregate gives long-chain SaFAs in one of the major health problems related to human nutrition: sticky platelets that can readily form blood clots in the artery.

By making platelets more sticky, the aggregating tendency of long chain SaFAs place a role in cardiovascular disease which plagues populations whose diets are high in beef, mutton, pork, dairy products and other food products containing a large amount of long chain SaFAs. (see footnote) They can be deposited within cells, organs and arteries along with protiens, minerals and cholesterol (a non-polar, very sticky and extremely hard fatty substance that melts at 140 degrees C (300 degrees F). Diets high in refined sugars can also create cardiovascular problems, in part because our body converts excess sugar into SaFAs (see next chapter, Sugar-Fat Connection).

Footnote: The stickiness of saturated fats and cholesterol is only one factor in cardio vascular disease. the compelte story is more complex. there is injury to the lining of the artery, due to toxic free radicals, ocidized LDL cholesterol, oxidized triglyceride fatty acids, etc. This is followed by attempts at repare that involve thickening of the arteries by repair protiens apo(a) and fibrinogen, along with fats and cholesterol. the combination of thickened (narrowed) arteries and sticky platelets sets the stake for heart attacks, strokes, and emboli. (pps 30-31)

this next one comes from the sugar-fat connection chapter, to clarify how too many carbohydrates can lead into health problems:

Refined dietary sugars almost always turn into fats, and starches can also turn into saturated fats.(p31)

in regards to the uses of unsaturated fatty acids:

our body uses essential and unsaturated fatty acids to construct membranes, create electrical potentials, and move electric currents. it can also burn them to produce energy if the more vital roles that these fatty acids place have been adequately fulfilled (p 21)

it might be important to highlight now, how what i said before is reflected by this information:

saturated fat helps with cell repair. what i neglected to mention is that saturated fat is also turned into energy. notice that it isn't turned into fat. it is also interesting to note, as you mentioned, that unsaturated fat is used for membrane creation, electric potential, and currents. then, it's secondary use is for energy production--assuming enough unsaturated fat is present to maintain the other uses.

one of the reasons why i bring up the importance of saturated fat is because many people have the wrong idea about saturated fat. Like cholesterol, many people believe that saturated fat is "per se" bad for you. In fact, many vegetable sources exist for saturated fat, and saturated fat--in the right quantities--is good for you.

The problem gets to be when people get too much saturated fat AND too many refined sugards and starches that are converted into fat and saturated fat--which leads to heart disease. If an individual reduces their refined sugars and starches to a minimum, then these will not likely be turned into saturated fat. Simlarly, if the individual has the right amount of fat--including saturated fat but not excluding others--then that fat wll be used to repair membranes, regulate hormones, and run the electrical processes of our bodies (nervous system, noteably), and be used as energy.

i find it interesting that something can be turned into fat--notice it's two kinds of carbs: refined sugars (from refined flour, sugar, etc) and starches (certain forms of complex carbohydrates). If you read my post above, i make mention as to why it may be important to avoid certain amoutns of complex carbs as well as refined carbs in favor of real foods that are naturally sugar-rich (fruits and veggies) as well as getting the right amounts of fat (including saturated fat) and protien.

unfortunately, most vegan forms of protiens are attached to complex carbohydrates that are high in starch--those beans and grains. in excess--as may be necessary to consume enough protien from these sources if they were the only sources--would then 'turn into' saturated fats, which would lead to those heart-disease problems.

It's a complex system, isn't it?

As to your concept of gluttony, i find it offensive. everyone needs saturated fat, and in my opinion, most people likely need a dietary source of cholesterol. It is important for energy, for cell repair, and for a number of other things. Vegetarians also consume a lot of saturated fat--as it exists in a number of oils that vegetarians consume.

i think it's also inappropriate to equate vegetarianism with thinness, or with a desire for thinness, and for people who need to consume more calories per day--regardless of the amounts and where they get those calories--as gluttons. really insensitive.

and instead of trusting advertising on a can, have you ever thought of just doing research? you could get the same benefits from a whole-foods source, and save a lot of money and recieve other nutrients at the same time.

As to your concept of gluttony, i find it offensive. everyone needs saturated fat, and in my opinion, most people likely need a dietary source of cholesterol. It is important for energy, for cell repair, and for a number of other things. Vegetarians also consume a lot of saturated fat--as it exists in a number of oils that vegetarians consume.

i think it's also inappropriate to equate vegetarianism with thinness, or with a desire for thinness, and for people who need to consume more calories per day--regardless of the amounts and where they get those calories--as gluttons. really insensitive.

and instead of trusting advertising on a can, have you ever thought of just doing research? you could get the same benefits from a whole-foods source, and save a lot of money and recieve other nutrients at the same time.


^^^ THAT plus more that you said which I'll come to later....

Although you've told what you 'can' using scoops of information apparently well within your knowledge (such knowledge in my case still quite convincingly translates for the moment as scoops of UNsatuarated fat in my case, as for me personally :))... I hope that my slight but careful moderation of even the UNsaturated stuff will be all I need personally, but I cannot proove or even realize fully quite yet (without thorough research) whether I am the body type that would do well on Saturates or SaFa's.

But I do get that you are indicating somewhat saying the admission that whole foods are good on the whole, lol, for real --provided they are not full of starch or sugar refinement which would be food made up of non wholesome saturates becoz of the sugar-X-fat connection.

When it comes to carbs verses complex carbs and whether obtained thru meat or veg, I am still perplexed
by what is best depending on whether you be vegan or meat eater. And also the matter of cholestrol (the last stage of fat residue right?) which clearly is NOT the thing you want as either a meat-eater OR a vegan coz cholestrol is what you get I think when saturates become a layered &*hard* icky sticky crud in your arteries, thats cholestrol when saturate is not utilized by the body well enough, or simply when one over-eats and makes pig of themself which many people do in modern society. WHY?? =Becoz many people use food to substitute for happiness gain in other ways lacking which is just sad. Moment on the lips a lifetime on the hips as is well known. *(moral- you can enjoy food without over-eating or if from time to time over-eating you don't need to allow yourself to become fat in the process).

However at least we are both recognizing SOME fat is good, if it is kept in moderation, but from this point how exactly you can effectly self-monitor this given what I say above, is where i get confused, especially about the complex carbs you say that are in veg foods and stuff like you saying you can eat too many beans (whereas a meateater would NOT necessarily need to eat as much of that wholesome sort of food), thus what??? thus making a vegan who eats many beans to make up protein unhealthy (I doubt) or merely by such large intake maybe you are saying vegan gets fat and is stupid to rely on just beans for example, MAYBE, but if thats what for instance a vegan has to do EQUATE *or match the equivalent* IN RELATIVE TERMS a meat eaters diet, then so be it wouldn't you say, a vegan must eat AND THINK like a vegan/ common sense!...

And although interesting to compare contrary or opposed diets (for our individual reasons of ethics etc), its not always wise I FEEL to compare the stark contrast of meat verse vegan, coz of course the ways to get **balanced** in each sometimes radically different diet. ie, each diet of meat or non-meat requires detailing NEEDS (the vitals of which comparable maybe if breakdown of needs are levelled off and parred pound for pound), but putting in a respective diet together ALL ones needs to make a menu suitable to the energy and metabolism of a vegan is way different I would suggest (speaking of metabolism and hormones and the like) and so a different assembly/approach to choice/utilization/digestion of foods is required (as is so for each veg individual or bodytype) and so DESPITE THE OBVIOUS OF MEAT BEING MEAT AND VEG BEING VEG we MAY draw conclusions by making comparisons but this does not satisfy personal need for the individual of course. (meaning all to be assessed each on veg persons merit ultimately and food compatibility with body type and activity for which a diet is intended, for best results).

I may need to edit this most likely in case what you read is not adding up right and that is what I must do, read, in order to understand my own thoughts, reflecting what you are saying Zoe, which in turn is reflecting a source of quoted information (whichever source that is btw seems reasonable).

ps, I was not speaking for everyone about thinness, but point taken and actually I was meaning to talk LEAN, rather than equate veg people with being thin purely coz of what they eat....sooo, You are right, that would be insensitive to the many body types out there.

Your paragraph about carbs is completely false, as my previous post demonstrates. But, i'll break it down a bit more for you. (Also, all body types need saturated fat for energy and cell membrane maintenance.)

1. carbohydrates are not obtained through meat or other animal products. These products are made entirely of protien and fat--as well as numerous micronutrients (iron, vit A, vit B12, etc). Carbohydrates only exist in plant forms.

everyone needs carbohydrates, but the carbohydrates that they need are predominently fruits and vegetables, with moderate amounts of beans and grains. Since beans and grains (and other starchy veggies like corn, potatoes, etc) are starchy, an excess of these can lead to the body turning them into saturated fat, which leads to the heart disease problem/connection above. if a person also consumes a number of refined carbohydrates (white flour, refined sugar), then these are also turned into fat and stored in the body.

it's not the meat, protien, or fat that is turned into or stored as fat in the body or that leads to the problems of 'sticky fat' in the blood stream, but rather the starches and refined sugars that are turned into saturated fat by the body. So, the problem of cholesterol and saturated fat and it's part in heart disease is more from the refined carbohydrates and starches of our modern diets than it is from meat, eggs, or dairy products.

2. What is cholesterol and how does it function? I suppose we'll just revisit our old friend Udo Erasmus in his book Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill (chapter 12)--yet again!

A hard, waxy, lipid substance that melts at 149 degrees Celcius (300 degrees F), cholesterol is essential for our health, but we do not need to obtain it from foods. Our body can manufacture it from simpler substances (2-carbon acetates) which it derrives from the breakdown of sugars, fats, and even protiens, especially when the total intake of these foods supplies us with calories in excess of our body's requirements. (p 64)

Here are the uses for cholesterol, summarized from the book:

1. compensate for changes in membrane fluidity: because our intake of saturated and unsaturated FAs changes daily, cholesterol is necessary to regulate cell membranes. Too much unsaturated fat and you get 'loose' membranes, for which cholesterol is added to 'stiffen up' the membrane. Too much saturated fat and you get "hard membranes" or stiff membranes and cholesterol is removed from the cell membrane to make it more fluid (pp 64-65).

2. the body makes steroid hormones from cholesterol: steroid hormones are the basis of sex hormones--estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. having appropriate cholesterol levels helps maintain sexual (biological and behavoiral) health. (p65)

3. adrenal corticosteriodal hormones are also made from cholesterol: these hormones take part in balancing out the water in our kidneys and renal functions, as well as prepping for fight or flight responses and suppressing inflammation to promote healing. (p 65)

4. Our body makes vitamin D (with sunshine) with cholesterol: this vitamin is vital for calcium and phosphorous metabolism. (p 65)

5. Bile Acids are derrived from cholesterol: in this way, cholesterol plays a vital role in the digestive and absorption processes of our body. Our body also discards excess cholesterol as bile acids. (pp 65-66)

6. cholesterol helps our skin: secreted by our skin to help protect it from dehydration, cracking, and wear and tear of the sun, wind, and water. it also helps heal skin tissue and prevents infection. (p 66)

7. cholesterol may also be a 'pinch-hit' antioxidant--when other anti oxidants are not present. (p66)

i think it's important to recognize why cholesterol is important in order to maintain proper bodily function. I also think it's important to understand how the body functions--or what it does--with dietary cholesterol.

about half of the dietary cholesterol is absorbed, and the rest passes through our system unused. (p 67)[quote]

[quote]About 70% of affluent populations across the world, increased cholesterol consumption decreases cholesterol production within their bodies by means of a regulating feedback system that protects them. The other 30% of the population may not have adequate feedback, and are wise to limit their cholesterol consumption. What is not clear is to what extend drugs (some of which are known to increase the body's cholesterol production), and other toxic molecules found in food, air, water, environment have in making the feedback system ineffective. (p 67)

I think that this is important to mention for two reasons. First, of what dietary cholesterol is consumed, most of it passes out of the body completely. Of what is absorbed, cholesterol levels are regulated by the body--so it's not 'added' on top of what the body produces, but in most cases, the body will produce less and use the cholesterol absorbed (which may be less taxing on the system as a whole). For those for whom this is not the case, limiting cholesterol intake from diet (remembering of course that cholesterol only comes from animal products) may be a good idea.

it should be noted that saturated fat isn't 'per se' turned into cholesterol such that it would cause higher cholesterol levels--even though saturated fat, when broken down by the mitochondria into 2-carbond acetates (vinegars), can be used to make cholesterol, which is necessary for biological function.

it makes sense to me that a whole-foods, plant based diet (which i advocated whether it's vegetarian or omnivorous) is an appropriate diet for *every* body. Whether one adds animal products or not shouldn't hinge on fears of saturated fat (which will be used for energy and/or cell membranes) or cholesterol (which is necessary for health, and for which the body has a self-regulating system for most of the population).

As to your next paragraph, which is poorly written, you have little understanding of the conversion of starches (found in beans) into saturated fat (which i have mentioned numerous times) and how it relates to body building specifically.

Lets just give an example. An omnivorous bodybuilder needs 30% of her calories from protien every day. A vegan boydbuilder needs 30% of her calories from protien per day.

to get protien, the omnivore is going to choose meat. This meat contains saturated and unsaturated fat--in smaller quantities than protien. This fat will be converted into energy and used in cell repair. The protien will be used to build muscle.

The vegan body builder is choosing a whole foods diet (no protien powders, etc). Thus, the vegan must choose those foods that are highest in protiens--beans and grains. Beans contain more starch than they do protien, and far less protien than meat, and therefore it requires more beans to meet the nutritional requirement for protien. increasing the amount of beans consumed, she also increases the amount of starch consumed. The protien will be used to build muscule. The starch--some or most of it--will be converted into saturated fat and stored as fat.

Therefore, the most efficient form of protien for a body builder is actually meat. This will promote leanness as well as promote energy and muscle growth. Eating a lot of beans--the amount to sustain body building--will result in an excess of starch, which will be converted into saturated fat and stored on the body.

I find that your last paragraph (before the ps) to be completely incoherent. I have no idea what you mean about comparable diets and specific needs and what not, nor about merits of diets and what not. Certainly there are individual varients that need to be addressed, but for the most part, all bodies need protien, fat, and carbohydrates. All bodies need saturated fat, cholesterol, unsaturated fats, essential fatty acids. All bodies need whole foods simple carbohydrates in the forms of fruits and vegetables. All bodies need a moderate amount of complex carbohydrates (grains, starchy vegetables, beans, etc). All bodies need protien (which can be found in plant and animal sources). All bodies need a wide spectrum of macronutrients.

the body type or individuated differences between these bodily needs is actually quite small and i would think, statistically insignificant. and, a body builder does have different needs than other types of athletes. In general, they tend to eat more calories in order to support their muscle growth. I don't know if you (or anyone) would consider that 'gluttony'--but considering their activity, i would consider it appropriate to develop the look and level of fitness that they desire.

The struggle for many vegetarian body builders is that it's hard to find the dietary balance necessary to sustain the sort of growth--without increasing body fat by overconsuming starches which are turned into fat in the body. Those who do not struggle with it are likely not struggling for a couple of reasons: 1. different body type; 2.they use steroids. If a person is a 'mainstream, competitive' body builder--then you can bet that number 2 is a big part of that list. There are very few, if any, all natural, vegan body builders on the national stages. Those who are, i question regarding issue number 2. If it is true that they are not using steroids, then it's most likely they have a naturally genetically talented body that would function well with weight training whethre or not they were vegan.

as to your futher comments about leanness and the concepts of gluttony, making a pig of oneself (making oneself fat) etc, these are also inappropriate statements.

different body types will have different fat distribution. different body types will carry, naturally, more fat than others and this is perfectly healthy for these body types. People with these types can have very healthy diets and active lifestyles and be healthier than any given 'thin' person. Fitness and wellness are not a matter of one's size or shape, but rather one's lifestyle. it is inappropriate to make these sorts of judgements about people.

I will pick up on many points.... but not all at once, don't have the time all in one go, but I'll keep coming back to add comment to each new point being made or point rehashed for better (detailed) explaining like you have done above.... I will though as said just pick out one point for now randomly, and I'll just say that I think Carbs as regards meat is hard to understand that if meat has absolutely no carbs of any sort, then what the hell kind of energy is it. Purely protein energy?.. (plus meat fat of course)....
However whilst I grant you are small doubt right saying meat has no carbs (my thoughts still naturally question that carbs in meat may exist in very small amount even if that is BIG MAYBE). One might think of fat as being carbs or at least I did sort of and still now can't help that line of thought, due to what I don't know to the contrary which is why I'm talking to you about it. I will though throughout my life be doing simple research since I am an avid exerciser and need to know these things better than I do. :idea:
Anyhow all I am saying now is I find it hard to believe there is no carbs whatsoever in meat, allbeit a POSSIBLE(?) trace amount maybe (I'm being subjective/ open minded /circumspectual etc) which is what I tend to believe, perhaps misguidedly and likely uneducatedly, but anyway as I wait your next slam or correction, lets view (or at least I view) these things with an open mind with the thinking primarily that energy is energy whether carbs or whatever, some forms better than others of course... And whilst me saying that does not help much in explaining the detail from my point of view, I will come to that later :)

More later....

fat is converted into energy. The quotes from the book say so. Other information on the net says so. Protien is only converted to energy as a 'last resort' (which results in the ketosis process, which can be hard on the body)--usually it's used as a basic building block of muscle as well as other tissues.

i agree that 'energy is energy' and 'energy' can come from carbs, protien, or fat. Generally speaking, fat and simple (whole, natural) carbohydrates from fruits and veggies are the most readily turned into energy. Protien is often used (as ammino acids) as tissue building materials, unless there are no other nutrients around, then the body enters ketosis and turns it into energy. This takes more effort, though, then turning a simple carb--like lettuce--into energy. Refined sugars and excess starches are usually used as energy, unless there is an excess of these, in which case they're turned into fat and stored as fat in the body.

the book that i have mentioned twice is a fairly simple book to read. I suggest you start doing some real nurtitional research. I understand that you are uneducated and easily confused. this is apparent from your posts.

i have repeatedly stated how lipids (fats) function as nutrients and how that fits into the body builder's dietary needs. Unless you can provide an educated counter--rather than conjecture--i don't see much need to go farther. If you want me to strive to clarify something for you, then no problem, i will.

There is good fat and bad fat others say. I might sound a little weird but what kind of meat contains the good fat ? Thanks

all fat is good fat. As i have posted here, fats that people think of as 'bad'--saturated fat and cholesterol--have their purposes in the body. All meats contain these fats--as well as some others (unsaturated fats--commonly considered the 'good fats'). But how much of each type varies.