yes, the tide is turning in the iraq war. and it's turning against the white house. some of the president's most ardent invasion supporters from his own party are starting to see the folly of this conflict. as this continues to drain lives and resources, the public is beginning to get tired of the war. how much longer will we stay in iraq?

our exit will leave a political vaccum that will be grabbed by whoever has enough force. what will we have accomplished, when this is finished?

What I don't understand, is why the public had an interest in this folly in the first place.

If we leave, we must make absolutely sure that no one else gets Iraq, either.

Begin, Operation Scorched Earth!!

:gun:

The Rev

What pisses me off, is that if all the polls are showing that people are now against the war in Iraq, and that Bush's approval rating is down, where were these idiots in November? Why did they need an extra 6 or so months to realize what a disaster this has been?

Edit: Apologizes for strong wording - having a bad day at work :P

What pisses me off, is that if all the polls are showing that people are now against the war in Iraq, and that Bush's approval rating is down, where were these idiots in November? Why did they need an extra 6 or so months to realize what a disaster this has been?

Edit: Apologizes for strong wording - having a bad day at work :P

are those words that strong? people voted for values and security. i was stunned that someone who had done such an incompetent job would get re-elected. i'm hoping the democrats can find a viable candidate this go round. whoever that might be, it's not joe biden.

If we leave, we must make absolutely sure that no one else gets Iraq, either.

Begin, Operation Scorched Earth!!

:gun:

The Rev
Rev, are you off your meds again? :D

our exit will leave a political vaccum that will be grabbed by whoever has enough force. what will we have accomplished, when this is finished?[/QUOTE]

Unfortunetely, we will never leave. My guess is that the Bush Administration pretended to make a mistake about the WMD, etc. They continue to avoid the issue in order to reinforce the impression that that is what they really thought. The bottom line is that they want some level of controlling interest in the oil.

money/profits/imperialism is objective. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

are those words that strong? people voted for values and security. i was stunned that someone who had done such an incompetent job would get re-elected. i'm hoping the democrats can find a viable candidate this go round. whoever that might be, it's not joe biden.
I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy nut but many people did not have the opportunity to vote last election from what I understand. The way some of the stations were set up in a few states was questionable. People waited for hours to vote and didn’t end up getting the chance.

I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy nut but many people did not have the opportunity to vote last election from what I understand. The way some of the stations were set up in a few states was questionable. People waited for hours to vote and didn’t end up getting the chance.

Thats not conspiracy theory at all. It happened. But there is nothing we can do about that now. The fact remains that millions of people have now changed their minds about this president and this war. And I forgive none of them. ;-)

---> still having a bad day ;-)

a i was stunned that someone who had done such an incompetent job would get re-elected. i'm hoping the democrats can find a viable candidate this go round.

Me too. Frankly, I was embarrassed (even though my vote went to Kerry).

What I don't understand, is why the public had an interest in this folly in the first place.


LOL...I liked this comment.

If we leave, we must make absolutely sure that no one else gets Iraq, either.

Begin, Operation Scorched Earth!!

:gun:

The Rev


Have to agree about the meds comment...:)

i spoke to several people who felt we were "keeping the fight over there" and that saddam and al-queda "are connected somehow". these were bush voters, in their early 20's to 60's.

Have to agree about the meds comment...:)
Maybe we should take away the Rev's smiley-faces for awhile? :D

What pisses me off, is that if all the polls are showing that people are now against the war in Iraq, and that Bush's approval rating is down, where were these idiots in November? Why did they need an extra 6 or so months to realize what a disaster this has been?

Edit: Apologizes for strong wording - having a bad day at work :P

I think I lived your same day about 2 weeks ago ... and during a discussion about Iraq I said the same thing to an ex-Bush supporter.

They said: "That isn't the way he made it sound!" And, my favorite, "I was thinking more about 9/11 then, and it felt good to do something as a country" .... FELT GOOD TO GO TO WAR?!?!?!?!

I actually respect those who supported the war then and now more than the "flip-floppers" (Had to bring that one up).

I think this administration (and ones like it) will stay there until we no longer have a need for oil or until that oil is used up (no matter how bad it gets.) It would have to get a lot worse for them to pull out.

First, and foremost, it appears to be an oil war afterall.

i don't think we'll be in iraq as of the next presidential election. in another year, this will really be weighing on the republicans. already the president is having a surprising amount of trouble pushing his agenda in his second term.

i look for substantial troop withdrawals in the next year.

No way. The US is there to stay, war or not. With the Saudi prince coming up to rule, US troops will be out of Saudi soon. The US will need some sort of stronghold in the middle east, and Iraq is perfect. The US has been busy in the past year developing more permanent bases and infrastructure in Iraq. War or not, the US ain't goin' nowhere.

No way. The US is there to stay, war or not. With the Saudi prince coming up to rule, US troops will be out of Saudi soon. The US will need some sort of stronghold in the middle east, and Iraq is perfect. The US has been busy in the past year developing more permanent bases and infrastructure in Iraq. War or not, the US ain't goin' nowhere.

I think that is the desire, but do you think that there will be the political force to keep troops there if the local population continues to attack our troops and each other? I really don't know what will happen, but if everything continues as it has, it will require more and more political capital to keep the soilders there. So, unless there is a change, eventually the leader (whoever he/she will be) will have to leave. Or at least that is my best guess :)

I do suspect that the US will do whatever it takes to stay there. Iraq is a political, military, and financial (energy) goldmine. If that means reinstating the draft, I think that the US will find ways to do it and to hoodwink the public into thinking that it's a grand idea. And there will be countries who will support the US in staying there, because they see the financial & political benefits in doing so. The gov't is already priming the public for the draft -- even my conservative FIL thinks so. Just look at its press releases lately on how overextended the nat'l reserve is... it's getting ready for the "we have no other option -- serve your country and fight terror" tactic.

I think that the local opposition will probably wane if the US maintains the military presence, especially if the US can knock it off with raiding people's homes in the middle of the night AND if we continue to increasingly rely on private contracts for staffing there. If we can learn to stop offending the general Iraqi public and tone down this "war on terror" gibberish (overseas anyway -- it will likely be maintained within the US itself), then I think that US will be able to pull it off. And I think that there's way too much at stake for the US gov't and the people/companies involved (*cough* diebold, bechtel, kbr, etc *cough*) for this to fail.

Side note to history....WW2..67% of the US armed forces were conscripted. There wasnt as much of a huge swell of enlistments and support for that war as the movies and history books would lead one to believe.

Side note to history....WW2..67% of the US armed forces were conscripted. There wasnt as much of a huge swell of enlistments and support for that war as the movies and history books would lead one to believe.

Wow, I knew the draft was bigger than portrayed, but I had no idea it was two-thirds!

I think that the local opposition will probably wane if the US maintains the military presence, especially if the US can knock it off with raiding people's homes in the middle of the night AND if we continue to increasingly rely on private contracts for staffing there. If we can learn to stop offending the general Iraqi public and tone down this "war on terror" gibberish (overseas anyway -- it will likely be maintained within the US itself), then I think that US will be able to pull it off. And I think that there's way too much at stake for the US gov't and the people/companies involved (*cough* diebold, bechtel, kbr, etc *cough*) for this to fail.

this is the crux of our disagreement. i don't see the opposition waning. we're talking about a clash of cultures. for all practical purposes, there's an unlimited supply of fighters and people willing to blow themselves up to create disorder. i'm betting that they'll wear us down as this extends forward with no sign of abating. it's going to look increasingly foolish for congress to continue funding this war. unlike the president, these guys are actually worried about re-election.

and as we reach peak oil, we'll have no other choice except to use alternatives such as gas from liquified coal (this is where i think we're headed anyway). other technologies are becoming every more competetive in these times of higher (and higher) oil prices. we'll see huge capital investments in coal technologies. the cleaner technologies are considerably farther off.

no matter what happens, we've still got to buy oil on the competitive market, and that means the price will continue to rise as demand from contries like china continues to explode. so i don't see that we can control the oil from iraq, even if we wanted to. all we can do is ensure production we'll have to compete to buy.

in this period of time, bush's corporate cronies have made a TON of money in iraq, and they've made it by screwing the american taxpayer. however, that gig is going to wind down, unless there's another terror attack.