Someone mentioned this on another post and I thought it warrented a further look.

I think every ARA has to deal with confrontation many, many times in his or her life. The problem is, how should confrontation be handled an how does one exit that confrontation without completely turning their back on humanity.

Face it, the AR philosophy is a minority philosophy. Why? I have no idea, but it's frustratingly true. When being bombarded with things like, "But we were meant to eat meat" or "Humans are more important than animals" or "isn't a child more important than a lab rat", what we are hearing is not just one persons philosophy, but the philosophy of 90% of the world population. It's with this knowledge, that I find very hard not to come out of a debate with a bitter taste in my mouth for humanity in general.

I've found that facts and figures about animal rights are very, very dangerous. Sure, we can say that a pound of beef requires X amount of resources to produce or we can say that no benefit ever came out of animal research, but for every fact, there is a counter fact, and "Man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". I try not to use statistics in my arguments (I do fail quite often, though). I am inclined to believe that emotion and the argument of compassion is the best inoculation against anti-AR sentiment. What do you think??

Also, to say it bluntly, since most people that we deal with on a day to day basis are, in fact, anti-AR people, how does one find it within themself not to completely HATE humans and humanity? Everywhere we turn there is animal abuse. There are factory farms, there are animal research labs, there are puppy mill, and on and on. What is so frustrating to me though, is not only the existance of these places, but the complete and utter complacency towards this abuse.

I know these feelings of distaste for humanity is common place in the AR movement. A few years ago I was talking to a major AR figure (we all know who this person is) and he said that if he was presented with a button in which, if pushed, would wipe out the entire human race (albeit humanely so) he wouldn't think twice before pushing that button. I would agree with him.

Do I hate humans? I do. I can't help it. I don't want to feel this way and I fight it as best I can, but in the end my distaste for humanity wins over.

What does everyone else feel? And how is it controlled?

I understand what you're saying. It's really easy to hate other people. What's made it easier for me, is meeting and socializing with people of like minds in RL. That way I know that there are people who are like me and there are people who care. Even joining veggieboards.com is helpful that way. Also, being active not only brings me into contact with people who care, but also makes me feel like I've done something positive.

I'm probably opening up an immense can of AR-worms with this post, BillD, but sometimes when I'm feeling extremely disappointed and frustrated with the human behaviour around me I find it helpful to remember that compassion was the genesis of my decision to go veg and become interested in the lives of animals, and that the compassion I am interested in practicing [this is just me] must be applied universally, not just to the people I agree with. If compassion gets applied selectively, then we're back at square one: people will always decide who is the recipient of their selective compassion, and unless I demonstrate a better method, they won't choose the animals. They might not ANYWAY but otherwise I feel like my decision lacks integrity.

That being said, it is hard to stem my anger, and I am pretty angry by nature. I am not an ARA; I am very new to this whole world, but learning.

It also helps to remember that I have effected more change for the animals by showing the people around me that the choice to live a life of less harm makes me happy, not miserable. I think I understand what would motivate your button-pushing friend but I know that I could not live, much less help the animals, if I felt that way for good. Perhaps the fact that I have a history of mild depression influences this choice of mine. If I were stronger maybe I could do more.

I agree that the very reason that I became an ARA was because of compassion. And, I try to use the idea that, since humans are animals, I must have compassion towards humans as well. Logically, that's a very sound concept. There ain't no holes in that one. Problem is, easier said than done.

Plus, what if you witnessed some guy murdering a friend of yours? Would that scene justify hate? In essence, that is what is happening, and that is where the hate (I really dislike that word!) stems from. It's very difficult to feel compassion for someone who commits a crime like murder or justrifies such a crime.

That being said, although it is difficult to feel that compassion, I think we would all be better people if we had such feelings.

And, yes, Alphiedog, it helps to be around like minded people. I just wish there were more of us!

Oh, Lord, yes. I'm not preaching about the purported "ease" of Universal Compassion. It's a constant, constant struggle for me. But as with my diet, I just have to keep trying.

It's interesting that you mention the hypothetical murder of a friend, because in essence yes, that is what is happening in my view. However, when we hear of the beginnings of ethnic cleansings, wars, family feuds, crimes of passion and so on, all the stories seem to have the same underpinnings: Person X behaved in such an abominable way that it licensed/encouraged/permitted Person Y to behave in an equally abominable way. I just can't let myself go down that road. I am aware that certain acts are approved under the aegis of AR because all strategies and techniques are needed in the struggle, but this is a personal decison that I have made.

Brahma,

I completely agree with you and in no way did I find your post "preachy". Universal compassion is not only difficult, it's necessary and is a very important concept to fight for.

I agree that the very reason that I became an ARA was because of compassion. And, I try to use the idea that, since humans are animals, I must have compassion towards humans as well. Logically, that's a very sound concept. There ain't no holes in that one. Problem is, easier said than done.

I understand this completely. The reason why I have problems giving my compassion to human beings is that they (for the most part--I'm looking at modern, western civilization because that is what I'm exposed to) have a choice in many aspects of their life. Animals do not. People can choose whether or not to eat animals and their byproducts, but animals have no choice, no say in whether or not they end up as someone's dinner or jacket. And in most cases, they probably don't even know what's happening to them. There's no way to say, "Hey, this isn't right. Please, stop doing this to me." There is no animal equivalent of MLK. There are human beings who take on the voice of animals, but it is different, somehow. I want to say that everyone has a right to their own diet, especially people that I'm close to. But, it's becoming increasingly harder the more images and words I see and read about the cruelty that animals are faced with. When I watch my boyfriend, the man I love, chow down on a steak sub, it's almost painful. At first, I promised myself that I wouldn't let his choices, or my parents choices, etc. get to me, and I wouldn't want to change them. But I do. I undeniably do. Sheesh. I'm rambling. But I've been thinking about this a lot today, and the more I think the more upset I get.

The only thing that really helps me is that, for 21 years of my life, I was a meat-eater, too. I contributed to it just as much as the people I love do now. I can only hope and pray that I will be able to lead by example, and as Ghandi says, "be the change that I want to see in people." That's all I can do.

ETA: There are situations where humans have absolutely no choice what happens in their lives. I'm not trying to undermine that... I sounded a little bit insensitive above. Humanity, in general, has their fair share of problems: war, famine, genocide... on and on and on. I was speaking more about having love and compassion for the people around me who live comfortable lives without fear and choose to eat meat.

It also helps to remember that I have effected more change for the animals by showing the people around me that the choice to live a life of less harm makes me happy, not miserable. I think I understand what would motivate your button-pushing friend but I know that I could not live, much less help the animals, if I felt that way for good. Perhaps the fact that I have a history of mild depression influences this choice of mine. If I were stronger maybe I could do more.

I like what you said about showing people that you are happy in your life and your choices. That makes a lot of sense. I think people automatically expect veg*ns to be miserable without the things that they are used to having in their lives. I think they even want us to be miserable in some cases, to assuage their own guilt. But I'm far from miserable.

I think maybe, eventually, ARAs have to become hard toward humanity. When I first started out, I didn't really care what others did as long as I was doing my part to make a difference. Now, I often find myself sickened by humanity, more than ever before, and it's a gut-wrenching feeling... we have to share the planet with them. Have to accept them and what they do, lest we become miserable... which should not be the case... as I mentioned above.

I think maybe, eventually, ARAs have to become hard toward humanity. When I first started out, I didn't really care what others did as long as I was doing my part to make a difference. Now, I often find myself sickened by humanity, more than ever before, and it's a gut-wrenching feeling... we have to share the planet with them. Have to accept them and what they do, lest we become miserable... which should not be the case... as I mentioned above.

Well, that's just it, I feel...If one is looking for reasons to despair of life on this planet, at this time, and find examples of humanity's horrible behaviour, one won't have far to look. So in answer to BillD's original question, "to hate or not to hate humanity", the pragmatic choice for me is NOT to hate humanity, and to do that I have to make the practice of that compassion a lifelong, constant goal and vigilance. Otherwise it is a perpetual drain on my resources which [I believe] could be better spent. I suppose it is true that ARAs have to become "hard toward humanity" [nice turn of phrase]; I really would not know. But we encourage those who have lost their partners or family members to move past their grief, and those who have had their hearts broken to try to find love again. It is very important to me to keep my heart open as wide as possible. Maybe this is selfish.

But we encourage those who have lost their partners or family members to move past their grief, and those who have had their hearts broken to try to find love again. It is very important to me to keep my heart open as wide as possible. Maybe this is selfish.


You have an excellent way with words, brahmacharya. Just reading those sentences gave me a sense of peace (which I needed after today). Thank you.

There is nothing selfish about keeping your heart open, not at all. In fact it's probably the least selfish thing that you could do. Keeping others out isn't the way to go; I suppose that's sort of what I was insinuating when I said that ARAs must be hard toward humanity, so maybe I was headed down the wrong path with that one. When I get past all the awful things that humans are capable of, I realize that if everyone had a closed heart, we would all be worse off than we are now. It's easy to close people off completely; I seriously considered it a couple of hours ago. But, I can't.

It's people like you, and other people on this board as well, who will change the world. Hating humanity will only perpetuate the problem.

Acadia,

Well said. As you probably know, it was you that got me thinking about this issue today.

It's ultra hard to see your loved ones going against what you feel is right. My girlfriend is a vegetarian and is also an ARA (luckily), but my family is not. I can't tell you how many times my mom has said "just have a little chicken, you didn't kill it." Since she's pretty elderly right now, I hear this same thing at least once a year. It's frustrating to go to thanksgiving dinner and be forced to smile as I ladle my mashed potatoes next to the carcass of a dead turkey.

But, as Brahma said, the best thing to do is attempt to live as an example in these situations. And I TRY to smile. All I can say is that when I became a vegan at 18 my parents said that it was just a phase. Now I'm 36. Hopefully they realize that AR is not just a idealistic fantasy, but a serious issue that demands attention.

I have become hardened to humanity. You're right. You can't believe how much I relate to that. I walk to work every day and see hundreds of people. On my really anti-human days I find myself judging everyone. It's terrible and completely unhealthy. I walk past a McDonalds and smell the stench of burning flesh and I feel like I'm on the outside looking in. It almost seems unreal to me. I am still in disbelief that these actions are allowed.

Ugh! But after it's all said and done, I do realize that these feeling are destructive. Is there a pill you can take to make them go away? I'll take it so long as they were not tested on animals. :)

I have become hardened to humanity. You're right. You can't believe how much I relate to that. I walk to work every day and see hundreds of people. On my really anti-human days I find myself judging everyone. It's terrible and completely unhealthy. I walk past a McDonalds and smell the stench of burning flesh and I feel like I'm on the outside looking in. It almost seems unreal to me. I am still in disbelief that these actions are allowed.

I have days like that, too. My extended family threw a b-day party for my parents, and for the first time, I felt like a complete outsider with my own family. My cousin, who I have always loved and respected dearly, kept going on about material things and this delicious chicken dish she made the other day. And it launched a delicious meat conversation. It was so hard not to scream. I was judgmental, even resentful, towards my own family. You're right, it is incredibly unhealthy, but I believe it comes with believing in something so strongly that it becomes an absolute truth to you and you can't understand other people's actions as a result.

Ugh! But after it's all said and done, I do realize that these feeling are destructive. Is there a pill you can take to make them go away? I'll take it so long as they were not tested on animals. :)

I generally don't like medication, but in this case, I might be willing to take a cruelty-free hateful-feelings-toward-humanity preventative :)

Acadia,

Right on the mark.

I try not to say a single word to my family now. There really isn't any use and they already realize my beliefs.

The worse confrontation with my family was with a cousin of mine, as well. We were discussing if humans were meant to eat meat. He kept pointing at his canines and I kept pointing out the other multitude of facts that point against our carnivorous nature. It got pretty heated. My cousin's sister butted in and said "Bill, you're being rediculous." I didn't even start the discussion, but, in the end, became the bad guy. How dare I question the accepted norm!

That was a long time ago, and all is forgiven and fogotten, but, to this day, I don't express my views with my family.

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to pop in and say that I completely understand where you're all coming from and struggle with it myself every day.

Meatless,

You just added something! It's nice to know that I'm not the only one feeling these things.

Yeah me and Mr. Meatless talk about it a lot (he's a vegetarian, I'm vegan, both for nearly three years). Sometimes we feel like it's us against the entire world. :-/

Yah Bill, I totally get you...

Fortunately for me my school had a surprisingly large number of vegans, and we did all sorts of things to catch the public's eye while still focussing on issues related to AR

For instance, we started a vegan chapter of foodnotbombs in our area where people would come and bring entirely vegan dishes and feed some of the hungry people in the area, we also do vegan potlucks and bake sales

It helps to raise awareness and MEET those like minded people, there's strength in numbers too, and things like bake sales and potlucks are amazing because you get people who are semi interested coming and being like, "woah, this is really good"... then you tell them it's vegan (or remind them if they already knew)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you want to change people it's got to be gradual... I hate most people too and when I walk by my school's cafeteria I just shudder (hell, i'm in china right now, and when i tell them i'm "vegetarian" (for sake of simplicity... they don't have words for vegan) their jaws drop and they can't understand it)... so it's all aobut winning small battles, talking to people through doing meaningful things, i find it to be more powerful and more rewarding

As for now, just try to block out the rest of the world's ignorance

And if you feel like doing any bashing, feel free to PM me, i'm always down for that (privately, of course) ;)

also, an argument i like to use involves the "naturalistic falacy" whereby, you state that "well, just because we are given something does not mean we SHOULD use it... i have fists, but i'm not about to leap ove rthe table and beat you senseless" (or maybe something more tasteful... people like things they can see... they don't KNOW our diestive tract is so elongated indicating we're meant to be vegetarians, or that the vestigial remains of our appendix was probably a bacterial-housing organ for digesting cellulose... they just keep saying "i have this"...

or you can be really snide and remind him he also has a brain, so if he's so set on the things that he's "equipped" with he ought to put that to use

bah, i had a quote but can't remember it, mannnnn and it was so inspirational too... i'll repost... i keep drawing blanks today, *sigh*

I agree Bill; it's really hard not to when you hear about idiots with no hearts that grill 7-wk-old kittens alive to the point where they are better off dead, or someone torturing an animal or even another human for 'fun'. It's gross and I'm sickened to realize that I am indeed from the same species as them; but then there are the good people who donate money or blood or do those small little favors for someone they don't or do know, and I am happy to be from the human race. So it does go both ways, I guess. But sometimes the bad things are so bad that you forget that there is good in the world and from the human race and you have to question, "Should I hate or love humanity?"

I'm the only vegetarian-going-on-vegan in my entire school, my church, my family, and my community, although I do live in a small town and it's not even big enough to be considered a 'community' :D so that's not saying much. And it is HARD. My dad laughs at me, says cruel things, and openly shows that he is pretending that I am not even a veg*n by taking me out to McDonalds or Burger King or telling me I'm "stupid". My mom is the best. She is so supportive of me. That's the only support I get in the family--my mom.

My dad thinks I'm in some phase or what not, but won't he be surprised when I'm 20-yrs-old and still a vegan and an ARA?

I know where you're coming from. It's easy to hate the world and humanity. But unless you are actually going to push that magic button, the only one you are harming is yourself. The only way I've found to deal with the omnis around me is to ignore the fact that they're omni. I respectfully give my vegan point of view and provide them with facts at every opportunity and I lead by example. This is really all I can do. Hating just makes me angry and stressed and it's been proven that that's unhealthy for us. I try to focus on the positive. Small steps...

I don't believe in humanity, except in a purely physical sense. Society pisses me off sometimes, though.

A few years ago I was talking to a major AR figure (we all know who this person is) and he said that if he was presented with a button in which, if pushed, would wipe out the entire human race (albeit humanely so) he wouldn't think twice before pushing that button.I don't have any idea who he might be. Newkirk isn't a he, I don't believe Peter Singer would make that comment, and the radical defenders/representatives of ALF are numerous.

This is something I have struggled with for years, I really want to give a good vibe to people about vegans and ARA's, showing people we are kind and loving and not turn people off veganism and animal right by being bitter, but I am bitter, and I do hate humans, I wish I didn't but I can't help it, when I see what humans do to other animals and not even care, I just think this is not a nice species and why should I like a species that kills and tortures for greed and pleasure? it's an ongoing struggle for me :-/

Great posts to my original question.

I think alot of us in the West get super involved with dualities. We see things in either black or white. If it seems right to feel compassion and love for someone, then hate MUST be wrong.

What about the "middle road"? Hate, when used productively, can be very powerful and positive. Hate is an emotion which has evolved with humanity for possibly millions of years. There is a reason for it, and I believe it may be used for the greater good. Of course, there is always that danger of relying too much upon the emotion (just as we may rely too much on love), but when used responsibly, it may be a driving force for change.

What think you?

And, yes, Alphiedog, it helps to be around like minded people. I just wish there were more of us!



Their out there. . . you just have to look harder:)