The Pledge of Allegiance reads:

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one nation, under God
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


So, should children be forced to mention God in the pledge?

:no:

Actually, let me rephrase that- should children be forced to say a pledge that includes God?

No. I'm not anti-religious, but I don't think the Christian church (or any church) has a place in something to do with the government of a nation.

Actually, let me rephrase that- should children be forced to say a pledge that includes God?

You can rephrase something after people have voted. It makes votes cast before the rephrasing pointless.

For the second part, I was actually surprised to learn that American children have to recite any kind of pledge in school. It just seems... odd.

You can rephrase something after people have voted. It makes votes cast before the rephrasing pointless.

I know, quite sorry about that.

I was raised by atheist parents. One day when I was young I complained to my mother about having to recite a pledge with "God" in it. My mother said I was not required to include the word "God" when I recited the pledge and to just not say it from then on. So that's what I did the next time I recited the pledge. And nobody even noticed. However, since everybody else in the class said "under God", I just shrugged my shoulders and went back to saying it. However, it had no meaning for me.

I know, quite sorry about that.

Sorry - Just raggin on you a bit but I meant it in fun. Should have added a smiley!

While I am a Christian (big surprise there) and I wish that everyone were (wouldn't be much of a Christian if I didn't think it was the best thing since tofu, right?) I do not necessarily believe that children should be forced to say the Pledge with or without the inclusion of the word "God".

The PoA implies a nationalistic fervor that honestly makes me uncomfortable to begin with.

Futher forcing children whose religious beliefs (or that of their families) may not include one God (triune or otherwise) seems wrong to me. It is an infringement on their religious liberties that I would not want someone imposing on me.

I also believe that when one is being sworn in to testify that having to place one's hand on the Bible and say "So help me God." is an absurdity.

As a Christian perhaps placing my hand on the Bible and swearing, in the name of God to tell the truth may mean something. But to someone who does not hold the Bible in any form of esteem it is a pointless exercise that proves nothing.

You might as well use "The Hitchhiker's Guide".

But those are just my quirky personal opinons and they're worth just what you paid for them.

You might as well use "The Hitchhiker's Guide".


Hey, that is a bible to some of us! (Not really, I haven't even read it)

I think a society that forces people to acknowledge the presence of a God is moving frighteningly close to becoming a religious state that prosecutes heretics.

The original pledge did not have "under god" in it. It was added during the 50s during the whole cold war when the "evil atheist communists" were our enemies.

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Here is an article with some of the history.

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067499

I think people should have the right to insert whatever diety they like into the pledge. For example

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one nation, under SANTA CLAUS
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

or

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one nation, under THE ALL WISE EARTH MOTHER GODDESS
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

or

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one nation, under SATAN!!
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Gotta give the satan worshippers their 5 minutes, too.

or (and this is my favorite)

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one nation, under TAME
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

:lol:

The Rev

:lol:

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one nation, under TAME
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I think everybody who is registered on VB should be required to recite this upon logging in for the day. :yes:

I am angry that the pledge was tinkered with in the 50s. It was better before, because it didn't exclude people based on religion. When I was a student, I simply didn't say that part. Now that I am a pubic school teacher and leading the pledge is one of my duties, I feel that I have to say the official pledge. I am agnostic and this makes me very uncomfortable.

Because of Jehova's Witnesses who fought for their rights, (and ours), no child can be forced to say the pledge. Not because it endorses religion, but because children have a right to have their religions accomodated to a reasonable degree in a public school JW's don't believe in saying the pledge.

The church/state issue comes up when a representative of the govt. in a public setting seemingly endorses a particular religious view or creates a situation which coerces a person into taking part in a religious exercise or condonement of a particular religious point of view. If people want under God in the pledge, fine, just don't coerce people into saying it in Govt. public settings because I do believe it endorses a form monotheism in which public recognition of religious belief is acceptable. (there are monotheists who don't believe in public displays of belief)

So, should children be forced to mention God in the pledge?


They aren't. The USSC ruled in the past that no child can be forced to recite the Pledge.

They aren't. The USSC ruled in the past that no child can be forced to recite the Pledge.

Really? I heard they threw out that guy's case because he didn't have custody of his daughter or something.

For the second part, I was actually surprised to learn that American children have to recite any kind of pledge in school. It just seems... odd.

Yeah, it's a foreign concept to me.

We prayed in school, but that's because I went to a religious school. People in non-religious schools had a room set aside where they could have their prayers and meetings.

Really? I heard they threw out that guy's case because he didn't have custody of his daughter or something.


That was a different matter. The weasel in question had sued to not allow schools to have students say the Pledge at all. A lower court ruled in his favor, the USSC threw the case out.

No student can be required to say the Pledge in a public school.

OK, so maybe they can't force you to say it, but:

1. It is school directed and promoted
2. The teacher leads it (even agnostic teachers? That's insane!)
3. If you make a stink about not wanting to say it, you will be ridiculed by peers.
4. If you make a stink about not wanting to say it, you will be ridiculed by teachers and school officials.

As a young person, you are pretty much forced to say it, no matter what the law says.

I am angry that the pledge was tinkered with in the 50s. It was better before, because it didn't exclude people based on religion. When I was a student, I simply didn't say that part. Now that I am a pubic school teacher and leading the pledge is one of my duties, I feel that I have to say the official pledge. I am agnostic and this makes me very uncomfortable.

What will they do you if you refuse to lead it? I'm not saying you should, I'm just curious. Can a teacher be fired for this (because obviously, some parents would be outraged that you aren't leading it in class)?

OK, so maybe they can't force you to say it, but:

1. It is school directed and promoted
2. The teacher leads it (even agnostic teachers? That's insane!)
3. If you make a stink about not wanting to say it, you will be ridiculed by peers.
4. If you make a stink about not wanting to say it, you will be ridiculed by teachers and school officials.

As a young person, you are pretty much forced to say it, no matter what the law says.

i don't really see those as reasons that a young person is "forced into it". school dances are school directed and promoted - lots of people don't go. classes are led by teachers - lots of people sleep through them. and the prospect of ridicule is a terrible reason not to do anything.

i haven't recited the pledge in school for most of my life, and i never made a stink about it. i just remained seated and let the rest go on with their business. i've gotten a few comments here and there, but never anything i'd go so far as to call "ridicule".

I was a pretty politically aware little kid in primary school (I liked to read Doonesbury), and I remember thinking how weird it was that we were reciting this reference to god every day, like "Um, does anyone but me notice that there's a little conflict here?" It didn't bother me horribly, just surprised me and seemed less-than-appropriate.

Of course, lots of stuff happened in elementary school that struck me (and me alone?) as bizarrely inappropriate. For instance, our fourth grade music teacher had us singing the theme from M*A*S*H ... the refrain is: "'Cause suicide is painless...." WTF?! :think:

What will they do you if you refuse to lead it? I'm not saying you should, I'm just curious. Can a teacher be fired for this (because obviously, some parents would be outraged that you aren't leading it in class)?

I don't really know. I know it's some kind of law, because they recently made a law in Texas that you have to say the Texas pledge every day and have a Texas flag in every classroom along with the US flag. And now every class does it, whereas when I was growing up none did. That strikes me as rather bizarre--I wonder how many other states do that. I don't have any particular loyalty to Texas, personally. We also have to do a moment of silence after the pledges.

Anyway, I don't think most of the kids would care or miss it if I didn't lead the pledge, but you know there's going to be at least one who comes home complaining to his/her parents about the anti-American teacher who won't say the pledge. The first few years are vulnerable for teachers; they can choose not to renew your contract for any reason, so I really don't want to risk it. And have on your teaching record that you have been non-renewed, it's hard to find a job anywhere else. Even if I don't lose my job it will create a lot of hassle and hostility for me among students, parents, and staff. It's easier to just say it.