A few months ago, a girl joined the gay-straight alliance at my school, and she was really enjoying it until her parents found out. They said that supporting gay people was against their religion and she dropped out, no questions asked. A little later, I was talking to a kid in my orchestra about the possibility of a female US president, and he said that he didn't think women should be leaders because of his religion, and because he had said religion, I couldn't really fight back.

People who don't like gays or think women are inferior are not generally respected, but if they say that it's their religion, now that's a horse of a different color. Why, in our society, are religious beliefs placed above seculare beliefs?

People don't like to step on others' beliefs and religion is a deeply personal choice and lifestyle.

Yes. People say it's their religion and we're just supposed to stop and respect it and let it go at that.

It's bogus.

People who have no religion just don't understand how deeply rooted these beliefs can be *shrug. No sense in getting all pissed off about it but whatever.

People who have no religion just don't understand how deeply rooted these beliefs can be *shrug. No sense in getting all pissed off about it but whatever.

I don't think that's true. Just because someone doesn't belong to, or agree with, a specific religion, doesn't mean that they have moral and ethical values that are just as deeply rooted as a religion would be. I think a gay person's belief that they should be allowed to marry is probably as deeply rooted in them as a Christian's belief that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry. Similarly, I would venture that some of the ethical vegans on these boards feel just as strongly about animal rights as anyone does about his/her religion.

I am speaking from the perspective of someone who was raised in a deeply religious family, who used to be a Christian, believed it firmly and deeply, and is now agnostic. My mom is always saying she cannot understand how a "non-believer" can have moral values, what the basis of these values can be, etc. She doesn't understand that a person can have strong morals and values without religion. This is a pet peeve of mine, because I know that I DO have strong morals and values, and that I feel as strongly about some of them as I ever did about Christianity.

People don't like to step on others' beliefs and religion is a deeply personal choice and lifestyle.

Agreed, but sexual orientation is also a deeply personal "choice" [if such a word is even relevant...maybe "quality" is better?] and lifestyle. Why does one trump the other?

Throwing the word religion into a conversation shouldn't end it. But all too frequently it does. When I don't believe in something, based upon my religion, I can also talk about why. The scriptures I believe in, the ways I think it effects folks that are overlooked, etc. But no one really wants to hear my religious reasons for my beliefs. Unless I'm their Sunday school teacher.

Agreed, but sexual orientation is also a deeply personal "choice" [if such a word is even relevant...maybe "quality" is better?] and lifestyle. Why does one trump the other?

Unfortuntately, I've meet far too many "I choice lesbianism b/c I didn't like men" women to jade me.

Far too many people use religion to shy away from something they don't understand, or or too ignorant to try to understand.

I get sick of seeing it myself. The same people that are preaching that Jesus loves them,(anyone who goes against their religious values) are the same people who are shunning them.

Unfortuntately, I've meet far too many "I choice lesbianism b/c I didn't like men" women to jade me.

Okay, but I've met many "I call myself a Christian but am full of hate, anger and violence" types...should I write off the whole faith? I know that's not what you're suggesting but surely the opposite must apply? [I know, I know...don't call you Shirley.]

Yes. People say it's their religion and we're just supposed to stop and respect it and let it go at that.

It's bogus.

Yes, it is.

Okay, but I've met many "I call myself a Christian but am full of hate, anger and violence" types...should I write off the whole faith? I know that's not what you're suggesting but surely the opposite must apply? [I know, I know...don't call you Shirley.]

I have to agree with you there brahmacharya. It kills me that so many people hear that I'm a Christian and then automatically assign all sorts of nasty traits to me. I try my hardest not to do it to any other group.

People who have no religion just don't understand how deeply rooted these beliefs can be *shrug. No sense in getting all pissed off about it but whatever.

Religious people need to understand that non-religious people have deeply rooted (and just as strongly felt) 'beliefs' too.

Religion isn't an excuse for bad behavior.

Far too many people use religion to shy away from something they don't understand, or or too ignorant to try to understand.


Amen (no pun intended). Religious people should be passionate about their beliefs and know enough about them to defend them.

Okay, but I've met many "I call myself a Christian but am full of hate, anger and violence" types...should I write off the whole faith? I know that's not what you're suggesting but surely the opposite must apply? [I know, I know...don't call you Shirley.]

Depends on how many you've met :D

I have to agree with you there brahmacharya. It kills me that so many people hear that I'm a Christian and then automatically assign all sorts of nasty traits to me. I try my hardest not to do it to any other group.

Yeah! I understand that that is a major component of the faith, actually...not doing stuff to other people that you don't want done to you.

Depends on how many you've met :D

I haven't been keeping track! :cry: <runs to purchase small notebook and clipboard>

it's very difficult to argue religion with those who believe it. i believe religion is a huge problem in this world, and is holding mankind back. imagine, as john lennon put it, no religion too :).

I don't believe religion is the problem. I believe people are the problem.

i believe religion is a huge problem in this world, and is holding mankind back. Good point. It seems that there are a lot of people who believe something because it't there religion, instead of having a religion because they agree with the beliefs.

I don't believe religion is the problem. I believe people are the problem.

I don't think religion is the problem either, but an unwillingness to embrace or even discuss sensitive subjects because of religion is definitely hurting others. Yes, that is the individual's responsibility but in many cases they hide under the blanket of faith [or worse, teachings that aren't even scriptural but are accepted regardless] to avoid issues that cause them discomfort or even disgust.

In order to argue something, you have to have some common point of reference. If one says the word of the Sacred Book of Thor is the ultimate truth, there is no common ground for arguing with someone who does not accept that.
Furthermore, arguing/debating something assumes you both use reason or consistency as the basis of your arguments. Religion is based on faith. It doesn't have to make sense or be consistent. It's better to argue against the idea of basing certain beliefs on faith versus critical thinking than arguing against the religion itself.

But of course there are some things that reason isn't really useful in determining. Is there a God? Is there a soul? Metaphysical questions can be explored with critical thinking but never really answered. Of course the same applies to the question if the universe was created and ruled by an invisible pink unicorn. Or am I actually God and just not telling you. No one can ever really know for sure.

I too, wish I could be guaranteed certain civil rights based on my deeply held secular beliefs regarding animals. I guess I could say it is a religion, even though it's based more on reason than faith and always open to reconsideration. Unitarians have no dogma, and they are a religion.

But although I respect that people have a right to their beliefs and I acknowledge that it is something deeply personal and sacred to many people, I don't feel I actually have to respect the actual beliefs. I have highly negative opinions of many religious ideas, but it serves no purpose to be rude and share those with people.

People don't like to step on others' beliefs and religion is a deeply personal choice and lifestyle.
I disagree with that. Ijust think that people are afraid to be viewed as nazis or something for criticizing other peoples RELIGIOUS beliefs. Did you notice how quick people are to judge veg*ns though? the only differnece i see between the two is that one is where a person is told what to believe and the other is where a person makes choice for themselves. That’s a whole other story. Yes, I defenetly think it’s just some bullsh!t excuse. I don’t mean to sound mean or against everyone who’s religious, but these things really piss me off, religion sucks!
One time I was driving, and saw a sign that stated “good men are not the ones who go to heaven, it’s the forgiven ones”. What bull! It really makes me mad when people think all those things because of their stupid religion. People have brains, why don’t they use them? Idiots!

What bull! It really makes me mad when people think all those things because of their stupid religion. People have brains, why don’t they use them? Idiots!


nice. :juggle:

<-----Catholic. Not an idiot nor do I think people without religion are idiots. But maybe they are...they sure can be nasty

I disagree with that. Ijust think that people are afraid to be viewed as nazis or something for criticizing other peoples RELIGIOUS beliefs. Did you notice how quick people are to judge veg*ns though? the only differnece i see between the two is that one is where a person is told what to believe and the other is where a person makes choice for themselves. That’s a whole other story. Yes, I defenetly think it’s just some bullsh!t excuse. I don’t mean to sound mean or against everyone who’s religious, but these things really piss me off, religion sucks!
One time I was driving, and saw a sign that stated “good men are not the ones who go to heaven, it’s the forgiven ones”. What bull! It really makes me mad when people think all those things because of their stupid religion. People have brains, why don’t they use them? Idiots!


Well, maybe they are right? :p

But ya know, your post is a model for keeping an open mind. I shall put it in my VB scrapbook, and keep it close to my heart forever. :love:


<<Warning: Intense sarcasm above. >>

Oh, and saying you have nothing against religious folk and then calling them "Idiots!" is freakin' priceless. :lol: