How should I try to convince my son to get me a clerical job in the company he works for? A mortgage banking company. He is CIO -- chief information officer. Even just a temp job? Until i can find another job somewhere else?

He dropped out of high school. First he got suspended a lot. But I helped him learn computers since he was 8 yo. I took him to meeting of the Atari computer users group, mostly adults, and then to the IBM and Apple users group (also mostly adults and a few child prodigies) where he learned things that he wouldn't be able to learn in high school. I took him to the public library as soon as they got Radio Shack TRS 80's, along with programmed learning booklets on how to use the TRS-80, and in learning programming in BASIC. We both learned this together (tho I already knew a bit about programming in Algol-W). This was before I bought him an Atari 800.

Yes, he passed his High School Equivalency Diploma test, no problem.

When he was about 8 yo I went with him to get a savings account. He wondered how the bank could instantly stamp his day of deposit to day of withdrawal savings account passbook with his interest and principal up to the minute -- in a matter of moments. "Computer" I explained. Later, on the TRS 80 -- I showed him exactly how it was done. From that moment on, he was hooked. Plus I showed him the formula for calculating compound interest, using a handheld calculator.

When he started spending too much time just playing computer games, I steered him in the direction of learning how to use spreadsheets, databases, and word processing software, and explained that these were the basics of what he needed for basic computer literacy. I brought him to the computer users group, too, when representatives from Lotus were there, hawking their newest version of Lotus 1-2-3 and some planner software they had. He heard from an intel representative about their 8088, 80286 and their brand new 80386 chips, there. And lots more. I expanded his horizens re how computers could be used for a vast variety of purposes, including drawing, music composition and notation, making computer games, including the math and programming that was involved in things like plotting trajectories of a tennis ball, or a bullet -- and even just copying and faxing instead of dedicated copiers and faxes -- when the public school was showing the kids very little beyond basic keyboard input and exercises for learning arithmetic, grammar, whatever. In other words, the public schools weren't teaching computer science -- they were using the computers as a teaching aid for the same old subjects they had always been teaching.

I was the first to show him how to amortize mortgage payments using the forumula, using BASIC, and using a spreadheet formula. And this is the area in which he earns a living at today. Both as CIO for a mortgage banking company, and real estate investor (he owns 2 houses that he rents out).

No, he doesn't owe me anything. But it would be nice of him if he could help me out now that I need it. Yes, he is helping me with housing, and yes, most of my computer equipment was supplied by him. But it would be nice if he could get me a simple clerical job, too, even if just temporarily until i could find a job somewhere else.

I am fairly well convinced that if I hadn't helped him out, and spent a lot of time with him when he was growing up, that he wouldn't be so successful economically today. Since he did indeed drop out of high school in 10 th or 11th grade. He was failing in many subjects. But I made sure he was getting an alternative education -- in practical subject matter.

When I went to high school, I was taught how to do advanced algebra, and solid geometry. But when I graduated -- I didn't know how to balance a checkbook, or even write a check! And my parents refused to teach me, too! (Maybe they thought I would empty out and rob their bank accounts, if I knew how?) I made sure my son knew how to do these, and much more, at around age 8.

I am having trouble finding a job by myself. No-one seems to believe how computer literate I am. My son knows how computer literate I am. He still calls me up with computer-related questions, even though, overall, he now knows far more about computers than me.

I'm not sure why the dental group I was working for, doesn't have more work for me. Every time I handed an Excel spreadsheet in, they kept saying how excellent and helpful the Excel spreadsheets I made up, were. And originally they said they had, no doubt, tons of work for me that they needed me for. They had me do a few little things, starting almost year after they said I would start, an then they kept putting me off when I ask, what next.

Supposely the temp agencies around here won't send you to temp jobs if you don't have a car. And it makes sense since going to the same place every day at the same time, is hard enough. But going different places at diffent times requies hour and hours of schedule-reading and map-reading. And some companies are on a bus route, and others aren't -- and the people at the temp agency don't know which are which (tho the people at the companies do).

Last time I hooked up with a temp agency they had about 20 hours per month of work for me, one day here, one day there. And that was when I had a car.

By the way, I'm finding Monster to be useless. I filled out that I knew the basics of html, Photoshop, word processing, and touch-typing and could do basic page layout of text and photos and drawings, and using things like ws-ftp. And had several web sites. And I told facts about my education. And thus I could do a job like basic web page design and web site setup. But all I get are references to jobs that are way above my head, like chief software engineer. And they are usually at locations that are too far away.

first, i don't think that you have to bring any of this up to your son (as in, how you parented him, which helped make him who he is today).

second, i think it's appropriate to ask a favor of a family member. All you have to do is ask: hey ted, can you get my a clarical job at your work? it would really help.

and that's it.

no lengthy explainations, etc. You just approach him and ask. If he says 'no,' then you say 'ok, just thought i'd ask.'

also, instead of going through monster, prepare your resume and look for companies in your area and submit your resume. then, if they need someone, they'll look for you first--rather than going to the internet. Also, using search engines to find jobs is easier than putting a resume up for someone to look for you. monster is too passive, imo, and i don't know anyone for whom it has worked.

Can't make a resume. Can't remember the last time I worked. Lost the records, or threw them out after seven years. I'm just looking for computer literate clerical work -- word processing bookkeeping -- I don't think I need a resume for that. I could make up a skills and experience sheet. I've tried that -- sending it to all the accountants in my area. I even discussed this with the accounting advisor at the local small business advice volunteer org and he said it was a good idea. I sent out about 60 I think -- all the accountants in driving distance then. I got one telephone call, a brief question from that. That was it. I followed up with telephone calls to all the co's I sent the skills sheet to -- but no response from that.

As far as other companies -- I've tried cold calls to a few hundred companies re doing bookkeeping, but they alway say either they aren't hiring or take my name and phone number and say they'll call back if they need someone. I've found that temp agencies work much better than cold calls, for the amount of work I get, per the number of hours I go thru looking for work. But again -- just a few hours a month, if that much -- after going thru every single temp agency within an hour drive (about 8) and some of those within a 2-hour drive (3 or 4 more). And no good if I don't have a car.

zoebird You just approach him and ask. If he says 'no,' then you say 'ok, just thought i'd ask.

Done that already. I try it once every few months. Not more often than that. Doesn't get me anywhere.

By the way, I never pushed computer science on my son. That was what he was interested. I saw that that was what turned him on. I just helped him learn what he wanted to learn. I was never one of those parent who tried to live out their dreams (musicianship), through their children. Yes, I informed him about music, but never pushed it on him. He clearly was more interested in computers. So that is what I helped him with. I was not particularly interested in computers until I saw his interest. I saw that he was doing poorly school. I was good at independent learning and so was he. So I intentionally learned about computers for the purpose of being able to help teach him about computers. Also for something to do together when i had visitation.

zoebird i don't think that you have to bring any of this up to your son (as in, how you parented him, which helped make him who he is today).

Do you think only that (1) I don't have to bring this up; or in addition do you think that (2) I should intentionally avoid bringing this up?

Well, if you've asked, and he's said no....there's not much else you can do, right?

I mean, you could tell him what you've told us and try to guilt-trip him into hiring you, but I wouldn't ever recommend that sort of manipulation.

It seems to me like there must be a reason he keeps saying "no". Perhaps he would feel really strange with you working there? Maybe a better tactic would be to ask if he can help you network and find a similar job at a *different* company?

Coop Well, if you've asked, and he's said no....there's not much else you can do, right?

Naa, there may be more I can do.

It seems to me like there must be a reason

I can't think of a reason. He knows what kind of a good worker I am.

you could tell him what you've told us and try to guilt-trip him into hiring you, but I wouldn't ever recommend that sort of manipulation.

There must be a way to remind him of all the help I gave him, without playing on guilt, but rather on how much computer and mortgage knowledge I have, how good a worker I am, and how beneficial I could be to the company.

I can't think of a reason. He knows what kind of a good worker I am.

Well, just 'cos you can't think of the reason, doesn't mean there isn't one, yanno? It may have nothing to do with your quality as a worker, it may be a lot more personal. Perhaps he would feel awkward being your supervisor (even indirectly). Perhaps he is concerned about upsetting coworkers with nepotism. Perhaps he has seen other people hire family with disasterous results. Or maybe he just feels like work is "his" world and doesn't want to mesh his personal world with his work world. Maybe he's worried he will feel like a child in some fashion. *shrugs*

I can think of dozens of hypotheticals, but of course I don't know you or your son so I have no real insight. But there MUST be a reason for him to keep saying no, right? I doubt he's doing it just for the fun of saying "no".

What do you think of the idea of asking him to help you network for another job elsewhere?

Coop, I'd like to know what the reason is. I'm sure it is not a good reason. What I've learned, over the years, is that when you have a good reason for doing something a certain way, you are able to communicate it, without any problem. It is only when the reasons are bad, or wrong, that communicating it is interfered with. So I'm sure if he has a reason for not hiring me, it is not a good reason.

Yes, I've asked him about helping me find a job elsewhere, too. Same answer.

He shouldn't be worried about nepotism. Even though there may be about 300 workers (in 6 branches across the Eastern US) this is still very much a "family-owned" business. I can't emphasise this enough. The vice president and president are related, I think. My son's live-in girlfriend works there (they met each other there).

I used to know how to spell emphasize, but now I had to look it up. If I don't find work now, in a few years it will be too late, I think. I have to get in as much work as possible while still in the early stages of Alzheimers.

you can make a basic resume that lists skills. it does work. then put the work that you did do, best you can remember, from whenever. or, work that you've done independently--outlining the project, etc. (such as the eomeo site)

i think if you do bring up how you helped him (in his own interests) as a kid, it is a guilt trip no matter which way it comes out. it comes across as being 'you owe me because i did all of this for you." well, you actually signed up to do that when you became a father, so it was expected of you (more or less) whereas it's not expected that a kid get a job for his father later on in life for being a good father.

I think if you give him a resume and ask him to look around for a position that may work for you, he'd likely be able to find something. If he has something to pass onto someone, it looks more legitimate and it may work.

also, and this is just a side note, but there is a yoga studio in my area that is hiring a manager. the jobs are fairly simple: basic computer skills, answering phones, doing payroll/bills, banking, etc. so, it's just general stuff--a lot of it doing computer work. There may be work like this in your area, with a very small outfit, that you could do. It's worth looking into. I commonly find jobs in the classifieds of the local news papers for 'odd' work like this. It's not a big operation, but they need someone, and so they put an add in the paper. A local non-profit org is hiring an individual to work as a liason between clients and potential mentors and helpers--so basicly someone who takes down a lot of information and pairs people up. the hours are good, the pay is good. . .but it's kinda an 'odd' job.

When i cold-call companies about yoga jobs, i tend to call a specific person in human resources, talk to them for a moment, send them my package (it's a resume, program proposal, and an information sheet about the benefits of a corporate yoga program), and then call back 5 days later. Then, i just let it sit. It often takes a few months to a year before they call back. If possible, i call back after 6 months.

It is a more active path, but i didn't guarentee that it would work. simply that it's better than using monster. Since you don't want to go with a temp agency (my mother always has great luck with temp agencies; currently she's working for a temp agency but she's been at the same job/job site for almost two years), i thought i'd give you an option that works for me occassionally.

Coop, I'd like to know what the reason is. I'm sure it is not a good reason. What I've learned, over the years, is that when you have a good reason for doing something a certain way, you are able to communicate it, without any problem. It is only when the reasons are bad, or wrong, that communicating it is interfered with. So I'm sure if he has a reason for not hiring me, it is not a good reason.

That's a good point and you're quite possibly right. There's also a chance that he *does* have a good reason, but for some reason doesn't want to share it with you...perhaps in fear of making you angry or hurting your feelings. If only my crystal ball was a bit more functional I could let you know, heh.

But I have to agree with Zoebird...if you bring up what you've done for him as a way of pushing him into offering a job, that's gonna be manipulation. I think that could be very damaging to your relationship. (I know how much I resent my mom's manipulations, anyway)

I think a better route to take would be to sit him down for a frank discussion and see if you can't ferret out that reason behind all the "no"s and lack of assistance in networking. Perhaps there is something that can be resolved there - something you can say or do to reassure him that whatever it is that's stopping him from helping is not going to be a problem.

Thanks Coop, zoebird.

Just from my own experience, I wouldn't again hire someone I knew or help someone get a job with me. It is an incredable amount of pressure on the part of the person who's getting the job for someone else, as you feel responsible for the happiness and well being of the person who has the job, as well as are concerned for your own reputation if things don't work out the way you had expected. Like it or not, the person you get in to work can very well be a reflection of your own self, and there are a million reasons things could possibly not work out, and I wouldn't want to be in the position to have to deal with the fallout in any direction.

You aren't that far from Manhattan where there are TONS of temp agencies. I have difficulty believing you've gone through every temp agency in Manhattan and no one could get you work in Manhattan.

You aren't that far from Manhattan
Just covering 1 way, from my house to Penn Station:

By public transportation, it takes from about 2 hours and 15 minutes to 2 hours and 56 minutes.

If I leave my house before about 6 am, there are no busses running, so I have to take a Taxi ($6.00) to the Shirley-Mastic railroad station. If I leave between about 6 am and 7:15 am I can take the 7E bus ($1.50) to the Shirley-Mastic Railroad Station. But after that the next train does not leave the Shirley-Mastic RR station until about 1:00 pm. So if I leave my house after about 7:15 am I have to take the S66 bus ($1.50) to the Patchogue Railroad Station.

Going over a typical trip on this last route: I leave my house at 6:15 am so I can catch the 6:45 am bus. This arrives in Patchogue at 7:30, if it is on time. Then there a 10 minute walk, if I walk at a very brisk pace, from the Patchogue bus station to the Patchogue Railroad Station, to catch the 7:40 am train from Patchogue to Penn Station. It arrives at Penn Station at 9:11 am. So this trip is 2 hours and 56 minutes.

However if the bus is running late (which it does, about 10% of the time), or if it is bad weather (hard rain, snow) I will miss the train from Patchogue, and have to wait for the next train, which doesn't leave Patchogue until 8:01. If I were to miss the 8:01 train the next train would be 9:24am.

If I were to miss a bus, depending on which one I miss, they run only once every hour, or once every hour and 1/2.

The train is about $15 from Shirley-Mastic and $14 from Patchogue. So the whole trip, one way, is about $15.50 if I leave after 6 am, and about $21 if I leave before 6 am.

The trip from my house, to Manhatten, by car, is about 2 hours I guess. More during rush hour.

Rabid_Child I wouldn't again hire someone I knew or help someone get a job with me. It is an incredable amount of pressure on the part of the person who's getting the job for someone else,

Perhaps you did not put the person you know thru the same interview, and require the same level of credentials, and experience, and references, as you would have, if it was someone you didn't know? As a hiring manager, it is essential to require the same qualifications from someone you already know, as from someone you only know by documents and references.

as you feel responsible for the happiness and well being of the person who has the job, OK. Of course, We all care about each other. Or maybe we don't give a damn about each other. I don't know.

as well as are concerned for your own reputation if things don't work out the way you had expected. This is the same situation whether you are hiring someone you already know personally. or someone you you only know by documents and reputation. Whenever you hire anyone, you stake your reputation, as a hirer or hiring manager, on your choice of who to hire.

Like it or not, the person you get in to work can very well be a reflection of your own self, Again, this is the same whther you know that person personally, or not.

and there are a million reasons things could possibly not work out, and I wouldn't want to be in the position to have to deal with the fallout in any direction.

The same applies if you hire someone whom you only know by documetns and reputation.

If you personally know someone, the chances of making an error in hiring judgement and hiring someone who doesn't work out, is less, than if you hire someone based on reputation and documentation alone. This is why hiring managers often prefer to promote someone from within the company, than to hire someone from another company, even if the person from outside has a similar, or even better-seeming resume.

Maybe the next time that you ask for a job, you could mention that you would like a job so that you could help him out with your housing payments (or something of the like). If he says no, just explain how important it is to you and ask why he feels that he cannot help you out.

Good point msbun. I am paying him for housing now, out of my Soc Sec allowance, but I've already suggested that I could pay higher rent if I had more income.