Philosophy of Radical Frugalism

[rvijay]

http://www.geocities.com/stopinternational/

[Amy SF]

Hmmmm...interesting... :think:

[jenna rose]

Umm.

Hmm.

[mysteriouspoet]

*sigh* :(

This is nothing new to me. People are greedy and out for all they can exploit from others. And yeah, children starve while some @#$%^&* wonders, "Should I get the Mercedes in black or silver?"

[Ludi]

I agree with a lot of what they say except to throw away clothes that require dry cleaning. Very few clothes actually require dry cleaning, all clothes I've had that say "dry clean only" have washed just fine by hand. Don't throw something away if you can still use it! To do so is not frugal!

[bethanie]

You know, I was at the store looking for a pairing knife today. Where I was shopping I could not just buy one pairing knife. IF I wanted knives I needed to get a set. But I don't NEED a set of knives, just one--really it's debatable that I really need one, but I would like one small very sharp knife. Now, these knives were very cheap...the sets. So I could see someone thinking...wow, Icould get a whole set of 3 knives for X dollars. But all I could think was...I really don't need to have three knives, no matter how cheaply I can purchase them. And this is part of the tug people feel to buy at cheap stores. Wow, it's cheap! I can get seventeen of these.

It's very sad to me. Anyway, I thought some of the article was extreme...but I did follow the links to some other information. I am currently looking at all sorts of ways I can 'have less', from throwing away, recycling or donating. It's true that we really need very little.

B

[Ludi]

Bethanie, just to get a sense of how others view this philosophy, can you summarise the parts you find extreme? I don't mean you need to debate them or anything (this ain't the debate forum) I'm just curious about your views...

[bethanie]

"The present world economy is doomed and must be dismantled peacefully before it falls and crushes all but the super wealthy.
The economic collapse will probably arrive even before the equally inevitable ecological collapse."

"Clothing is almost superfluous in itself.
Fashionable clothing is out of the question!
Throw out any clothes that require dry-cleaning."

"Stop using money and banks altogether."

As I mentioned I found 'some' of the article extreme. It did make me think...but I think there is a big difference between developing a reasonable strategy for living (for everyone living), and an attitude of doom....do people know the economy will colapse?

I was also think about your peak oil information in conjunction with this ludi, which I also read. And what I was thinking was...won't people find a way? Don't human beings always find a way to make things keep working? Perhaps shortage of cheap gasoline will make people finally start seriously looking into renewable energy sources...clean energy, which would be excellent...perhaps people will come to their senses finally.

But, I am wondering how I'm supposed to 'stop using money altogether'...I do have a duaghter to raise. We exist on very little actually, and I have a small income. But at least in the society we live in clothing is NOT superfluous.

Anyway...as I mentioned, some portions of the article I found very informative, and others I found to be a little silly.

B

[Ludi]

Yes, the part about stopping using money is extreme, how are we supposed to pay for a place to live?

I'm pretty pessimistic about the economy myself (or I wouldn't keep posting those Peak Oil threads). Regarding "won't people find a way," there's physical reasons why there probably won't be a replacement for oil unless there's quickly a major (and I mean major beyond Einstein's theories) scientific breakthrough. But that doesn't mean we can't do *anything* or that we're "doomed." It's just not likely things can continue as they are for more than a few more decades at best, given the physical limitations of alternatives. Our economy (and so our way of life) is based on growth, any serious decline in growth will make the whole shebang collapse. So the STOP! people are advocating destroying the economy as we know it. In my opinion, taking many of the steps they advocate is necessary to make a transition to the way of life we're eventually going to have to have anyway, if we want to survive as a species. Because, as you're probably aware if you're interested in the environment, human population and our growth-oriented way of life are seriously stressing the Earth life support systems (there's a thread about the UN report on this in the Environmental forum). So even if we did miraculously find a replacement for oil and were able to save our economy and way of life, we would come up on some other limit to growth such as failure of the food supply due to global climate change, or some such even more drastic result of our expanding impact on the Earth.

Changing to a radically frugal way of life is scary as hell - most of us don't have the human support systems in place for this to work well, what some people call the tribal way of life. We're all so much on our own, paddling our own canoes.

[Amy SF]

I agree with you completely on what you said, Bethanie. I just haven't taken the time to respond to everything I read point by point, agreeing or disagreeing.

[rvijay]

Bethanie I am glad you like the original link. Thanks for all your comments here so far. To answer your question - How to Live without money ? Read on the barter system on the net. Whenever local economy collapses that is what people are forced to do.

Vijay

[rvijay]

Look what consumerism brings:
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1089270.htm

[bethanie]

Yes, I do get about bartering, and I use bartering occasionally in my own life. Just wondering how bartering is going to work on a large scale.

I found this article, slightly off topic, but for me very much ON topic...printed in our local free paper this week and was interested in sharing it:

http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/news_cover.html

Charlotte is a banking city, and lots of people are really interested in owning VERY large homes. HUGE homes.

B

[rvijay]

Bartering worked very well on a large scale. When RUssia collapsed several were bartering. Even in the US there were times when bartering was popular. there is an article on it at economics.about.com

Vijay

Vijay

[Ludi]

I'm just thinking the local appraisal district won't be too happy to accept a load of vegetables, eggs, or paintings in lieu of $$$$ for property taxes.

[rvijay]

If the economy collapses, they will accept anything.

Vijay :)

[Ludi]

Oh sure, if the economy collapses, but I'm more interested in the transitional period. How do I live in a radically frugal manner before the economy collapses? How do I avoid the use of money while virtually everyone else is still using it?

[rvijay]

Transitional periods are indeed challenging. Having reserves and building cushion helps. Also, look what the Russians did when their economy collapsed, they started to farm/barter, this was even their best scientists etc., Hence, also giving lectures about barter etc., in the transitional period helps
to raise awareness/interest. After all everyone wants to survive.

Vijay

[Ludi]

Transitional periods are indeed challenging. Having reserves and building cushion helps. Also, look what the Russians did when their economy collapsed, they started to farm/barter, this was even their best scientists etc., Hence, also giving lectures about barter etc., in the transitional period helps
to raise awareness/interest. After all everyone wants to survive.

Vijay
:yes:

[spud]

I especially like these bits -

Two particularly vile and bourgeois multi-billion dollar industries are the entertainment industry and the tourism industry.
Many extravagant habits of modern "developed" countries fit into these two categories and often the two overlap. Again, the solution is simple.
Find a home and stay home! ................
Invite your friends over and cultivate your own "entertainment".
.....................Flying, boating and driving (especially private vehicles) should be absolutely restricted.
Not to mention RVs, ATVs, trail bikes, trailers, snowmobiles...
Only the most urgent situations justify going anywhere by any means other than walking or riding a bicycle.
Quit travelling altogether.
Flying and driving all over the planet just to "get away" is the most extravagent activity imaginable.

Hot on the heals of entertainment and tourism is the so-called fitness industry.
The combination of eating properly and everyday activities (like walking) completely does away with all exercise machines, weights and all the insane fads that have developed in order to create this wasteful industry.

[bethanie]

Yeah...as for getting away, my question is what is it we so need to get away from? If we need to escape our lives to the extent that we are watching tv, traveling extensively to 'escape' and using other forms of escape such as drinking and pharmaceuticals...to me the obvious question is, "Why are we not working at making our lives better, rather than attempting to escape them all the time?"

B

[rvijay]

Spud that was a great post indeed. Where did you get this from ? I would appreciate a reference site for this.

Vijay

[rvijay]

Yeah...as for getting away, my question is what is it we so need to get away from? If we need to escape our lives to the extent that we are watching tv, traveling extensively to 'escape' and using other forms of escape such as drinking and pharmaceuticals...to me the obvious question is, "Why are we not working at making our lives better, rather than attempting to escape them all the time?"

B

Simple answer: Marketing, consumerism.

Vijay

[Ludi]

I especially like these bits -

Two particularly vile and bourgeois multi-billion dollar industries are the entertainment industry


Thing is, all those vile industries represent someone's way of making a living. Like mine! I work in the entertainment industry, which is vile and wasteful. Get rid of my business, and I'm left without an income. Now what do I do? Hecky darn, I'm destitute! Too bad on me!

:flush:

[rvijay]

Thing is, all those vile industries represent someone's way of making a living. Like mine! I work in the entertainment industry, which is vile and wasteful. Get rid of my business, and I'm left without an income. Now what do I do? Hecky darn, I'm destitute! Too bad on me!

:flush:


Fortunately for you most people are still far away from being frugal. This is the reality

Vijay