I'm not a feminist but...

[Thalia]

This phrase/idea has popped up on the other thread, and I wanted to address it. Feminism isn't a strict ideology with lots of goofy extremist views. It can be to some people, but not all. It basically, to me, means that someone should not not be disrespected, discriminated against, or otherwise denied rights and liberties soley on account of sex. And as a group, that women, and issues affecting women shouldn't be given short shrift compared with analogous issues for men.

I don't think you have to "tow the party line" and worry about what other feminists think of you to be a feminist. It's viewing women as deserving of the same respect and privledges that men receive. What could be wrong with that? Why is this such a dirty word?

I included some links that may be of interest.

http://www.northernsun.com/index.cgi/3124.html

http://www.casaninja.com/christi/neofem/opinions/urfeminist.html

[Michael]

I always think it's funny when women say they're not feminists. Just seems odd.

[Kreeli]

i think it's funny when men say it, too, michael. ;)

[Michael]

Good point. :)

[MsRuthieB]

Thalia-thanks for the insight and the links. I totally agree. I've learned something actually (just goes to show you can teach an old dog a new trick). I fit the bill..I am a neofeminist and didn't even know it before tonight..

[WyldFyre]

Its funny that Thalia would mention that feminism is about not being discriminatory yet the very word is discriminating and exclusive. lol

[Kreeli]

WF, your post demonstrates a very blatant lack of understanding about feminism. go read a book or something.

[FemmeDemonica]

Originally posted by Kreeli
WF, your post demonstrates a very blatant lack of understanding about feminism. go read a book or something

Agreed. Pick up bell hooks' Feminism is for Everybody. hooks basically describes feminism as a call to end sexism, period. To disagree with feminism is to agree with sexism, and, well, we just don't need anymore of that b.s. in the world.

With any social movement, you're going to have extremists. You can't just a group based on its extremists. That's just ignorant and short-sighted.

[Joe]

Originally posted by Thalia
What could be wrong with that? Why is this such a dirty word?


If these are rhetorical questions, they don't deserve answers.

However, if these are real questions and if you want to read some critiques of feminism, some books to start with would be:

Christina Hoff Summers, Who Stole Feminism? How Women Have Betrayed Women.

Katie Roiphe, The Morning After: Sex, Fear, and Feminism.

Rene Denfeld, The New Victorians.

[FemmeDemonica]

<--- Not a fan of Christina Hoff Summers

[Skylark]

<------------------------ Big fan of Cheris Kramerae's Muted Group communication theory.

Skylark luuuuuuuvs academic feminist theories!

[WyldFyre]

Hey Kreeli why dont you watch that rude tone of yours.

I know plenty about feminism and Im not about to go pick up a book on it. For instance feminism got a big boost when the pill was invented. As women were now able to enjoy their bodies in the same way men can. This happened I believe sometime in the 30's or 40's. Women felt very liberated at that time and it was at the same time that women started poking their heads into business and started acheiving some of that equality they were looking for.

However now women have that equality and you're still whining. Hell you whined so much that now it is better to be a woman and will get you BETTER pay and FASTER advancement.

So I guess I give feminists such a hard time because your beating a dead horse. OR ,you want superiority and not equality.

[MsRuthieB]

Originally posted by WyldFyre
However now women have that equality and you're still whining. Hell you whined so much that now it is better to be a woman and will get you BETTER pay and FASTER advancement.


Depends on the field really. In the financial sector, it's still the 'old boys club' with glass ceilings for women from what I can see. Take a look at your bank, investment firms, etc and the top 20 in position and pay are predominantly white male. In historically male positions in general, woman still make less.

They should be paid the same as man in theory, but in reality they generally are not. So, the powers that be came up comparable worth. The concept, also referred to as sex equity or pay equity, was introduced in the 1970s by reformers seeking to correct inequities in pay for occupations traditionally held by men and women. Following Congressional passage of the Equal Pay Act (1963), which required that men and women receive "equal pay for equal work," wages for occupations in which most working women were concentrated continued to lag behind those for comparably skilled but predominantly male occupations. This passage has been very hard to enforce.

Also as a side note, part-time workers are paid less than full-time workers. The majority of part-timers are woman.

[MsRuthieB]

They who control the money control..............

[Kreeli]

wf, are you telling me that sexism is no longer a problem and that there is no longer any place for the women's rights movement in our society?

[WyldFyre]

I am not saying it is no longer a problem and I am saying that in our society that is in American society ,as most of us are American, there is no longer a need for a ,wait what did you call it, ... "a women's rights movement" as there is already plenty of legislation to protect women.

[WyldFyre]

Ms B.

RE: controls the money

Who do you think controls the money of most of those Fortune 500 C.E.O.'s. Id wager that in at least half of their cases its a woman. As in the one they go home to at night.

[Tame]

Uh oh! The Apocalypse is nigh. The Tame One is feeling the need to defend feminism.

Somebody...help...me...MEDIC! :D

Hey WetFart ! The birth control pill was invented in 1960. Best ya get out and buy that book on feminism, huh? :tame:

[Tame]

Damn. I've been sittin' here with my beer and popcorn waiting for Kreeli to stomp a mudhole in WF's ass and walk it dry. :tame:

[Skylark]

WyldFyre,
I agree that there probably is plenty of legislation, but all women's situations will not improve unless the legislation is enforced. Part of that means women have to know what their rights are, and I know from having worked in a place where the owner of the company frequently harrassed his female employees that not all women do know what they're entitled to, nor how to get it.

[Kreeli]

yeah. i'm too tired and wrung out from my stressful night to get into it with someone who doesn't matter. or, who matters marginally, anyway.

WF, every post you've made here proves that you don't understand feminism, you don't understand women's rights, and you have no grip on the reality of what it's like to be a woman in our society.

it's not my ****ing job to explain it to you. if you are really interested in finding out why you're wrong, you should go to your local library. bell hooks is an amazing author for the feminist theory novice. go ahead. it won't hurt to educate yourself.

[MsRuthieB]

Originally posted by WyldFyre
Ms B.

RE: controls the money

Who do you think controls the money of most of those Fortune 500 C.E.O.'s. Id wager that in at least half of their cases its a woman. As in the one they go home to at night.

You honestly don't believe this, do you?

The decisions made in the boardrooms do not involve the CEO's wife's input. That a ridiculous idea.

"Honey, should I vote to merge with ABC Corp? Oh, I'm so confused and I know you would be highly upset with me if I didn't vote your way. Please let me know before tomorrow morning so that I don't have to look like an idiot and call you at home for your answer" Yeah, right.

Now, as far as how the money is spent once it gets in the home on a personal finance/family level, sure the wife is going to have a say so. Why shouldn't she? They are a team. Unless the hubby want's to stay home and raise the kids and manage the home front. But be prepared for a decrease in the income level because she's not going to be paid as much as her hubby in most cases.

[1vegan]

I’m a feminist, if I may call myself that.

I think all humans have the same rights, black, white, yellow, tall, short, male, female.

Woman are as good as (or even better) as men.

Even still, woman are paid less, and do not only have a job but also manage the house, do cleaning, look after the kids etc.
(managing a house is just like being manager at the office, only the office closes at 17:00)

We have to face that we live in a sexist world, people are judged on basis of there looks.
Yes, its true even I (shame on me) get influenced sometimes.

I think were past the “burn the bra” time, but for who pays attention: its still there.
If I hear about a book “The surrendered wife” I think “Wake up ! “

[Tame]

Originally posted by 1vegan

Woman are as good as (or even better) as men.


When feminists write something like this, I have no problem understanding WF's view of this type. Your statement is stupid, and yes, sexist. How can one sex be "better" than the other? If it is possible, is it not possible males are actually superior? Think before you type.

[Thalia]

Originally posted by Tame
The birth control pill was invented in 1960. Best ya get out and buy that book on feminism, huh? :tame:
Thanks, Tame, for a second there, I thought I misread, 30's or 40's????